35 réponses à ce sujet

[Premier Bromanov]

I'm a lore-nerd, and I'm livid about this.  I'll explain why.

1. It's an asspull.  Not only that, it only works because of the double-retcon regarding the collectors and the protheans. Due to this aforementioned retcon, Liara would have seen the statues of the protheans on Ilos and thought, "Wait a minute..."  Liara should have suspected something, considering that the collectors don't look that much different from unaltered "protheans."  Additionally, it only works because the player was never allowed to visit Thessia in ME1 or ME2 (a meta-reason).  It wouldn't be so bad if there had been lead-up or hints, because it's hinted that the Enkindlers are actually protheans deified by the hanar, and we're told that the protheans had been observing ancient.  There is, however, no lead-up to this particular change, and this connection is fabricated, spontaneously and ad hoc, for the purposes of the plot.  That is called an "asspull".

2. The asari have no conception of "masculine" or "feminine" and "male" or "female", but their retconned pantheon contains male and female gods?  The image and properties of gods are shaped by the people who perceive them and believe in them.  No asari ever stopped to think, "Why don't our gods look like us?"  No asari stopped to think, "Why does Athame look so dissimilar from the other gods?"  The old Egyptian gods have animal heads, but human bodies, and human traits.  In this case, however, as I stated, Athame and the other asari gods look nothing alike.  Even if Athame and the other asari gods looked like the protheans, that would cause the asari to wonder why their gods look nothing like the asari.  At the least, their gods would be shown to have an appearance analogous to objects or creatures found on Thessia, but the protheans are not native to Thessia.

For these reasons, I disregard these changes to the lore.  Bring on the Comic Book Guy accusations, but fans were angry about "Deception", too.

Modifié par Premier Bromanov, 09 mars 2012 - 07:45 .

[Hokochu]

I thought it was pretty silly too.

[Aesieru]

Just a question but... we only ever saw Athame's statue, none of the other gods. The other's were "advisors" and those had prothean heads but potentially it could be assumed they were helmets, just like the Egyptians wore Jackal Helmets in certain ceremony points.

Also if they had no actual image of what Protheans looked like they couldn't really realize that it was similar.

Deception was not anger from fans, it was anger because the book had no sensical properties in any sense, the religious revelation about the Asari makes sense and shoulda been assumed if they had been observing us as well.

Also, it was indicated very clearly that the Asari government had been changing the statues to look more Asari and less alien after they learned about the Prothean beacon. No society wants to admit they were only what they are because they were modified by alien races. The government hid that and society went on and it didn't really negatively effect anything. Keeping the beacon illegally hidden did tho.

Modifié par Aesieru, 09 mars 2012 - 07:51 .

[humes spork]

Uh, you weren't paying a whole lot of attention to anything were you. The protheans were ancient astronauts to everyone. The Eletania artifact outright dishes the protheans were paying special attention to and experimenting on humanity. You're told flat-out like an hour into ME1 the hanar worship the protheans, with absolutely no room for ambiguity. In light of that, how is it in any way an ass pull the asari got a little help from the protheans and over the course of 50,000 years turned it into a religion?

As far as Liara, it's called denial and a crisis of faith. Religion does weird crap to people, especially when a government gets in on the dog-and-pony show to whitewash history, and it happens all the time*. Hell, take Javik to Thessia and he'll tell Liara to her face her religion is completely false and she'll still deny it.

* I personally know fundie Christians who believe people of color are descended from Cain and cursed by god to be slaves to whites. I don't condone that viewpoint, but that doesn't mean it still doesn't exist for all its overwhelming stupidity.

Modifié par humes spork, 09 mars 2012 - 08:01 .

[Premier Bromanov]

Aesieru wrote...

Just a question but... we only ever saw Athame's statue, none of the other gods. The other's were "advisors" and those had prothean heads but potentially it could be assumed they were helmets, just like the Egyptians wore Jackal Helmets in certain ceremony points.

Also if they had no actual image of what Protheans looked like they couldn't really realize that it was similar.

Deception was not anger from fans, it was anger because the book had no sensical properties in any sense, the religious revelation about the Asari makes sense and shoulda been assumed if they had been observing us as well.

Also, it was indicated very clearly that the Asari government had been changing the statues to look more Asari and less alien after they learned about the Prothean beacon. No society wants to admit they were only what they are because they were modified by alien races. The government hid that and society went on and it didn't really negatively effect anything. Keeping the beacon illegally hidden did tho.

We do see at least one other god, on the tablet to the right of the statue of Athame, where Liara refers to the prothean figure as masculine, and the god of agriculture and harvest, I believe.

At least Liara had an image of the protheans, from her time on Ilos, and if it was ignored by the asari, that doesn't make it any less true.  It would be more of an indication of the retcon of the protheans/collectors, as well.

It was indicated that they were being changed, but the images of the protheans were still left intact, and on display in the temple, no less.  Also, they weren't modified, they were given tools of civilization, because of how slowly the asari are to develop and change, even to the time of the events of the games.

[Aesieru]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Just a question but... we only ever saw Athame's statue, none of the other gods. The other's were "advisors" and those had prothean heads but potentially it could be assumed they were helmets, just like the Egyptians wore Jackal Helmets in certain ceremony points.

Also if they had no actual image of what Protheans looked like they couldn't really realize that it was similar.

Deception was not anger from fans, it was anger because the book had no sensical properties in any sense, the religious revelation about the Asari makes sense and shoulda been assumed if they had been observing us as well.

Also, it was indicated very clearly that the Asari government had been changing the statues to look more Asari and less alien after they learned about the Prothean beacon. No society wants to admit they were only what they are because they were modified by alien races. The government hid that and society went on and it didn't really negatively effect anything. Keeping the beacon illegally hidden did tho.

We do see at least one other god, on the tablet to the right of the statue of Athame, where Liara refers to the prothean figure as masculine, and the god of agriculture and harvest, I believe.

At least Liara had an image of the protheans, from her time on Ilos, and if it was ignored by the asari, that doesn't make it any less true.  It would be more of an indication of the retcon of the protheans/collectors, as well.

It was indicated that they were being changed, but the images of the protheans were still left intact, and on display in the temple, no less.  Also, they weren't modified, they were given tools of civilization, because of how slowly the asari are to develop and change, even to the time of the events of the games.

The Protheans on Ilos were just one race that was absorbed into the Prothean Empire and based on those statues, they were already husks, so they were probably more reminders of what would happen if they failed, talk about encouragement.

[Aesieru]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Just a question but... we only ever saw Athame's statue, none of the other gods. The other's were "advisors" and those had prothean heads but potentially it could be assumed they were helmets, just like the Egyptians wore Jackal Helmets in certain ceremony points.

Also if they had no actual image of what Protheans looked like they couldn't really realize that it was similar.

Deception was not anger from fans, it was anger because the book had no sensical properties in any sense, the religious revelation about the Asari makes sense and shoulda been assumed if they had been observing us as well.

Also, it was indicated very clearly that the Asari government had been changing the statues to look more Asari and less alien after they learned about the Prothean beacon. No society wants to admit they were only what they are because they were modified by alien races. The government hid that and society went on and it didn't really negatively effect anything. Keeping the beacon illegally hidden did tho.

We do see at least one other god, on the tablet to the right of the statue of Athame, where Liara refers to the prothean figure as masculine, and the god of agriculture and harvest, I believe.

At least Liara had an image of the protheans, from her time on Ilos, and if it was ignored by the asari, that doesn't make it any less true.  It would be more of an indication of the retcon of the protheans/collectors, as well.

It was indicated that they were being changed, but the images of the protheans were still left intact, and on display in the temple, no less.  Also, they weren't modified, they were given tools of civilization, because of how slowly the asari are to develop and change, even to the time of the events of the games.

No Javik said they genetically engineered their Biotic abilities and it took much time.

The Advisors probably were assumed to be wearing helmets, Egyptians always had Jackal helmeted people in ceremony, particularly higher-up's.

[Premier Bromanov]

humes spork wrote...

Uh, you weren't paying a whole lot of attention to anything were you. The protheans were ancient astronauts to everyone. The Eletania artifact outright dishes the protheans were paying special attention to and experimenting on humanity. You're told flat-out like an hour into ME1 the hanar worship the protheans, with absolutely no room for ambiguity. In light of that, how is it in any way an ass pull the asari got a little help from the protheans and over the course of 50,000 years turned it into a religion?

As far as Liara, it's called denial and a crisis of faith. Religion does weird crap to people, especially when a government gets in on the dog-and-pony show to whitewash history, and it happens all the time*. Hell, take Javik to Thessia and he'll tell Liara to her face her religion is completely false and she'll still deny it.

* I personally know fundie Christians who believe black people are descended from Cain and cursed by god to be slaves to whites. I don't condone that viewpoint, but that doesn't mean it still doesn't exist for all its overwhelming stupidity.

It's an asspull because there's no lead-up to the asari, specifically, having been directly contacted by the protheans.  It wasn't hinted at in any of the previous games.  It's acceptable that the Enkindlers may very well be the protheans because it's stated in the first game, but because the player was not allowed to visit Thessia in ME1 or ME2, it's a spontaneous fabrication.

[Aesieru]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Uh, you weren't paying a whole lot of attention to anything were you. The protheans were ancient astronauts to everyone. The Eletania artifact outright dishes the protheans were paying special attention to and experimenting on humanity. You're told flat-out like an hour into ME1 the hanar worship the protheans, with absolutely no room for ambiguity. In light of that, how is it in any way an ass pull the asari got a little help from the protheans and over the course of 50,000 years turned it into a religion?

As far as Liara, it's called denial and a crisis of faith. Religion does weird crap to people, especially when a government gets in on the dog-and-pony show to whitewash history, and it happens all the time*. Hell, take Javik to Thessia and he'll tell Liara to her face her religion is completely false and she'll still deny it.

* I personally know fundie Christians who believe black people are descended from Cain and cursed by god to be slaves to whites. I don't condone that viewpoint, but that doesn't mean it still doesn't exist for all its overwhelming stupidity.

It's an asspull because there's no lead-up to the asari, specifically, having been directly contacted by the protheans.  It wasn't hinted at in any of the previous games.  It's acceptable that the Enkindlers may very well be the protheans because it's stated in the first game, but because the player was not allowed to visit Thessia in ME1 or ME2, it's a spontaneous fabrication.

The Protheans probably had a hand in almost every race such as the Hanar, Humanity, Turians, Salarians, Quarians, and other such things. This was indicated in some form in other parts and can be rationally assumed if you have a major huge Empire spanning the galaxy that looks for races to uplift or enslave.

[humes spork]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

At least Liara had an image of the protheans, from her time on Ilos, and if it was ignored by the asari, that doesn't make it any less true.  It would be more of an indication of the retcon of the protheans/collectors, as well.

Javik clears that one up, too. It reeks of retcon, but it makes sense at least.

The Ilos facility was built in the ruins of a civilization from the cycle before the Protheans. The stuff Liara had actually wasn't prothean, it was from that civilization. Everyone thought those guys were actually the protheans.

[Premier Bromanov]

Aesieru wrote...

No Javik said they genetically engineered their Biotic abilities and it took much time.

The Advisors probably were assumed to be wearing helmets, Egyptians always had Jackal helmeted people in ceremony, particularly higher-up's.

Why are some of the figures shown to be clothed such that their breasts and lower bodies are covered, and others are shown to have their chests bare?  The asari have similar standards regarding dress.

[Premier Bromanov]

humes spork wrote...

Javik clears that one up, too. It reeks of retcon, but it makes sense at least.

The Ilos facility was built in the ruins of a civilization from the cycle before the Protheans. The stuff Liara had actually wasn't prothean, it was from that civilization. Everyone thought those guys were actually the protheans.

Aesieru wrote...

The Protheans probably had a hand in
almost every race such as the Hanar, Humanity, Turians, Salarians,
Quarians, and other such things. This was indicated in some form in
other parts and can be rationally assumed if you have a major huge
Empire spanning the galaxy that looks for races to uplift or enslave.

Those explanations only work because of the retcon of the protheans, and of the events at Ilos, for ME3.  This is a retcon from a retcon.

[elferin91]

Hmm if i recall corretly, at first i was puzzled too when liara started talking about them but in the end she called all of them she so yeah, but i do agree that the whole story is messed up...

no wrong, the main story is messsed up, the side quests are actually pretty good, and cerberus storyline is also good

[Aesieru]

I'm not sure if it was a Retcon, I'm pretty sure Ilos wasn't a retcon so much as just one of the other civilizations in the Prothean Empire.

[humes spork]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

It's an asspull because there's no lead-up to the asari, specifically, having been directly contacted by the protheans.  It wasn't hinted at in any of the previous games.  It's acceptable that the Enkindlers may very well be the protheans because it's stated in the first game, but because the player was not allowed to visit Thessia in ME1 or ME2, it's a spontaneous fabrication.

There's no "may very well be" to it. You're flat out told with absolutely no room for ambiguity the hanar worship the protheans early in ME1. Just in case someone missed the point, a hanar actually floats up to Javik and refers to him directly as an Enkindler. The Eletania artifact similarly establishes with no ambiguity humans were contacted by protheans, too. The fact protheans observed and even meddled in the affairs of races in the "current" cycle was very firmly established in ME1. Just because it wasn't exposited that occurred with the asari until ME3 does not make it an ass pull.

[Premier Bromanov]

Aesieru wrote...

I'm not sure if it was a Retcon, I'm pretty sure Ilos wasn't a retcon so much as just one of the other civilizations in the Prothean Empire.

It was stated to be, in ME1.  It was retconned, after-the-fact, to explain the retcon of the protheans' appearance (Shepard's visions of the protheans in ME1 vs. the visions in ME2).

[Aesieru]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I'm not sure if it was a Retcon, I'm pretty sure Ilos wasn't a retcon so much as just one of the other civilizations in the Prothean Empire.

It was stated to be, in ME1.  It was retconned, after-the-fact, to explain the retcon of the protheans' appearance (Shepard's visions of the protheans in ME1 vs. the visions in ME2).

Doesn't it make more sense that both races or many races were there, the statues were made to show the future that awaited them if they failed, that as time passed you could process the Prothean information more and then fully understand the images or at least understand them better?

[Premier Bromanov]

humes spork wrote...

There's no "may very well be" to it. You're flat out told with absolutely no room for ambiguity the hanar worship the protheans early in ME1. Just in case someone missed the point, a hanar actually floats up to Javik and refers to him directly as an Enkindler. The Eletania artifact similarly establishes with no ambiguity humans were contacted by protheans, too. The fact protheans observed and even meddled in the affairs of races in the "current" cycle was very firmly established in ME1. Just because it wasn't exposited that occurred with the asari until ME3 does not make it an ass pull.

I don't have that DLC.  Is there a reason that Javik is so hostile to Liara, and the asari as a whole?  Why does he seem angry that the asari used what was left behind by the protheans in that relic to improve their civilization?  Is he also angry about the scientists using the prothean contribution to the Crucible design to destroy the Reapers?

[Aesieru]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

humes spork wrote...

There's no "may very well be" to it. You're flat out told with absolutely no room for ambiguity the hanar worship the protheans early in ME1. Just in case someone missed the point, a hanar actually floats up to Javik and refers to him directly as an Enkindler. The Eletania artifact similarly establishes with no ambiguity humans were contacted by protheans, too. The fact protheans observed and even meddled in the affairs of races in the "current" cycle was very firmly established in ME1. Just because it wasn't exposited that occurred with the asari until ME3 does not make it an ass pull.

I don't have that DLC.  Is there a reason that Javik is so hostile to Liara, and the asari as a whole?  Why does he seem angry that the asari used what was left behind by the protheans in that relic to improve their civilization?  Is he also angry about the scientists using the prothean contribution to the Crucible design to destroy the Reapers?

He seems angry that the Asari had a beacon and yet never acted on the Reaper threat, though if they could actually get that information out of the Vendetta VI is beyond me.

He also seems angry that the Asari, a greatly wise and hopeful race for the future squandered their gifts and really did nothing (and let's look at what the Asari really do and we can confirm this).

[Premier Bromanov]

Aesieru wrote...

Doesn't it make more sense that both races or many races were there, the statues were made to show the future that awaited them if they failed, that as time passed you could process the Prothean information more and then fully understand the images or at least understand them better?

The statues were all of the same figure.  Why would they use that particular figure to show whoever finds Ilos what happens when the Reapers show up?  The figures are humanoid, with smooth, round heads, and the protheans didn't know about that a human would be the first person to find them, as if to say, "Beware, human".  That's why the retcon is so peculiar.

[Aesieru]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Doesn't it make more sense that both races or many races were there, the statues were made to show the future that awaited them if they failed, that as time passed you could process the Prothean information more and then fully understand the images or at least understand them better?

The statues were all of the same figure.  Why would they use that particular figure to show whoever finds Ilos what happens when the Reapers show up?  The figures are humanoid, with smooth, round heads, and the protheans didn't know about that a human would be the first person to find them, as if to say, "Beware, human".  That's why the retcon is so peculiar.

Potentially certain races would be better at science than others, perhaps that was also the statues of the former surpreme race that was made into husks and so they saw what happened to their society as a memorial.

Those figures are tentacly and regal and all sitting, seems to be the higher echelons, and yet they're husks, and so they seem be a memorial of their race.

Also, Ilos was a secret planet, while the possibility of someone finding it was there I highly doubt the statues were meant to ilicit anything in visitors to a secret planet.

Modifié par Aesieru, 09 mars 2012 - 08:23 .

[Premier Bromanov]

Aesieru wrote...

He seems angry that the Asari had a beacon and yet never acted on the Reaper threat, though if they could actually get that information out of the Vendetta VI is beyond me.

He also seems angry that the Asari, a greatly wise and hopeful race for the future squandered their gifts and really did nothing (and let's look at what the Asari really do and we can confirm this).

But they're the most populous and wealthy species.  They politically and economically support the galaxy.  At the least, it's judgmental.  And the asari had full access to the prothean beacon, but they missed the particular component that contains information to fight the Reapers?  Smells of retcon.  Why would he be angry about something the asari never discovered?  Or did the asari know about the Vendetta AI?

[Aesieru]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

He seems angry that the Asari had a beacon and yet never acted on the Reaper threat, though if they could actually get that information out of the Vendetta VI is beyond me.

He also seems angry that the Asari, a greatly wise and hopeful race for the future squandered their gifts and really did nothing (and let's look at what the Asari really do and we can confirm this).

But they're the most populous and wealthy species.  They politically and economically support the galaxy.  At the least, it's judgmental.  And the asari had full access to the prothean beacon, but they missed the particular component that contains information to fight the Reapers?  Smells of retcon.  Why would he be angry about something the asari never discovered?  Or did the asari know about the Vendetta AI?

They spend 300 years around dancing and being mercenaries. They squander their long life and their society is only the most advanced and economically fit because they're Matriaches can fix things up and they've been around longer, since they... live 1000 years.

Let's not forget that the AI had security protocols it was about to shut down until you asked it to answer a question and it liked the question.

I doubt the Asari really wanted to mess with it too much.

Also holding onto Prothean Tech is illegal yet they would prosecute others but not themselves, now that smells of arrogance.

Javik is just pissed that certain individuals had Prothean information about the Reapers and either ignored it, passed it off, or didn't try to understand it and instead squandered the artifacts.

Modifié par Aesieru, 09 mars 2012 - 08:27 .

[Premier Bromanov]

Aesieru wrote...

Potentially certain races would be better at science than others, perhaps that was also the statues of the former surpreme race that was made into husks and so they saw what happened to their society as a memorial.

Those figures are tentacly and regal and all sitting, seems to be the higher echelons, and yet they're husks, and so they seem be a memorial of their race.

Also, Ilos was a secret planet, while the possibility of someone finding it was there I highly doubt the statues were meant to ilicit anything in visitors to a secret planet.

The figures have smooth heads.  However, they look like the "human" husks, sitting on chairs.  That they look like humans is my point.

[Premier Bromanov]

Aesieru wrote...

They spend 300 years around dancing and being mercenaries. They squander their long life and their society is only the most advanced and economically fit because they're Matriaches can fix things up and they've been around longer, since they... live 1000 years.

Let's not forget that the AI had security protocols it was about to shut down until you asked it to answer a question and it liked the question.

I doubt the Asari really wanted to mess with it too much.

Also holding onto Prothean Tech is illegal.

Not all of them choose to.  He's condeming the entire species when there are productive individuals he overlooks?  Does he say anything about the krogan, nuking themselves the second they were capable of the feat?