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Bioware needs to learn how to make boss fights


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#51
F-C

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Wintermist wrote...

F-C wrote...

in my opinion it doesnt really matter how many phases or abilities they give a boss.

once you know the tactics of the fight and how to win it becomes a snoozefest.

they can only make them so difficult without people coming and complaining about 'zomg i cant beat the bosses in your game'.


But by that reasoning there's not really any point in making a game at all? Since once you've done it you know the tricks...


thats just going to extremes and being stupid really.

making bosses that are challenging but the average player can beat in a reasonable amount of time is good.

making bosses that require spending hours of wiping over and over to learn the tactics is just going to result in the forums being flooded with complaints about the bosses are stupid.


this isnt WoW raiding. this is a single player game.

#52
Nosuchluck

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I actually find myself agreeing with Cipher on some parts. I think he's overeacting with how much it negatively effects the game though, it's still very enjoyable and one of the best RPG's I've played. I think the dialogue is fine, it's a little heavy in some parts where it doesn't need to be but for the main storyline it's just right. The fact than you can just skip through it all by pressing escape sorta fixes that problem if you don't like the dialogue.

The loot is boring. It's not that there isn't enough of it, it's just that it's really not that special or different. I would of really liked if stuff with special stats were extremely rare but immensly powerful. I never felt as if equiping my character with something really changed how effective he was in combat. I think it doesn't help that some of the best stuff was DLC and could be gotten very early in the game so you'd have a character who was only wearing one set for 30-40 hours.

I don't think exploration was too time consuming I just think it should of been made more optional. There really should of been nice big areas which were mainly outside of the mainquest line which gave people optional content to complete. I've always liked the idea of putting some really hard fights outside the main story. Dragon Age sorta had that with the Revenants but I never felt as if I had to go out of my way to find them.

I thought the combat was fine. My only real issue is that combining spells wasn't as important as I thought it was going to be or as dramatic.

At the end of the day I don't think DA did anything wrong massively, I just think it's not the game for Cipher if he really felt as if it took too long or had too much dialouge. On an added note I do think the ending felt rushed compared to the rest of the game, the landsmeet wasn't done very well and I felt as if I didn't have to do half of the stuff I'd accomplished because I was never allowed to bring  it all up to sway the nobles. Other things annoyed me like my brother being forgotten throughout the entire game but suddenly turning up at the end and some of the dialogue between companions were a little limited. I also still never really got why Loghain was motivated in to  doing all that crap. I was expecting him to give me a proper explanation when I allowed him in to the group but I never got any further insights. It was always "I did what I felt I needed to do" but that really didn't explain why he suddenly turned in to a complete dick.

Modifié par Nosuchluck, 26 novembre 2009 - 10:39 .


#53
Kimberly Shaw

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A bad boss design is "Tank is tanking boss and healer healing him while team is doing damage untill dead"



A good boss design has a boss that has



-A wide range of different abilities

-Uses them clever but also random to prevent a pattern that can be memorized.

- Either different phases (as you can see in many wow bosses) OR scripted events or abilities. You DONT want the boss to be a drooling idiot that just walks towards your nearest team member with autoattack.




Quoted for truth.



The loot on the bosses and in general doesn't feel that right to me in this game. If a boss is in a full suit of cool looking armour, or a mage is in a robe and has a staff, they should drop that loot. Just my 2cents.



Can a Bioware employee comment on the decision to make Desire Demons the "boss fight/encounter" at the end of so many quests (Shale, Red Cliff, Warden's Keep?). I'm afraid that Return To Ostagar is going to be Return to A Desire Demon controlling Duncan's corpse asking to make a deal with me...



/sigh






#54
Wintermist

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F-C wrote...

Wintermist wrote...

F-C wrote...

in my opinion it doesnt really matter how many phases or abilities they give a boss.

once you know the tactics of the fight and how to win it becomes a snoozefest.

they can only make them so difficult without people coming and complaining about 'zomg i cant beat the bosses in your game'.


But by that reasoning there's not really any point in making a game at all? Since once you've done it you know the tricks...


thats just going to extremes and being stupid really.

making bosses that are challenging but the average player can beat in a reasonable amount of time is good.

making bosses that require spending hours of wiping over and over to learn the tactics is just going to result in the forums being flooded with complaints about the bosses are stupid.


this isnt WoW raiding. this is a single player game.


No one is saying it should be a raid either, especially not me, so don't give me that crap.

#55
Spaceweed10

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cipher86 wrote...

No boss fight feels like such.  I actually find all boss encounters to be easier than random encounters and some general battles.

Like the four faced statue in the Deep Roads.  Uninspired and boring.


Cool story, bro Image IPB.

#56
Mikey_205

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I loved the large creature animations and the killing blows and I love encounters with big monsters with a ton of HP I just hate when average joe master assassin seems to do more damage than Flemeth and the Arch Demon and is nearly as CC resistant.



I gotta say my main problem with the combat is the cooldown culture which is developing. It's okay to do on some abilities but does everything really need one especially for healing its annoying. A better way would be to go along the lines of the spell combos to encourage a mix of spells and to tone down spells that you would otherwise spam (perhaps make CC more easily resistable until you've applied debuffs). I really loved sleep and horror combo and sleep and waking nightmare. It was much more fun than spamming hold, and forcefield with 2 mages.

#57
Gabo

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Kolaris8472 wrote...

My thoughts upon seeing High Dragons, Ogres, and Sylvan Trees using Massive Attacks to knock my damage-dealing Rogues on their asses varied from utter frustration to sheer amazement.

Definite appreciation!


There's a specific talent on one of the weapon styles just for that!

#58
Trylane

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Some battlecries from non-human enemies (like revenants) would have been nice. BG2 had good ones for liches. An abyssal "This place will be your tomb." or "You should not have come to this place." gave a really nice impression of battling something unearthly and overpowering.

Instead, revenants are completely mute, IIRC.:( 

#59
Wintermist

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Kimberly Shaw wrote...

A bad boss design is "Tank is tanking boss and healer healing him while team is doing damage untill dead"

A good boss design has a boss that has

-A wide range of different abilities
-Uses them clever but also random to prevent a pattern that can be memorized.
- Either different phases (as you can see in many wow bosses) OR scripted events or abilities. You DONT want the boss to be a drooling idiot that just walks towards your nearest team member with autoattack.


Quoted for truth.

The loot on the bosses and in general doesn't feel that right to me in this game. If a boss is in a full suit of cool looking armour, or a mage is in a robe and has a staff, they should drop that loot. Just my 2cents.

Can a Bioware employee comment on the decision to make Desire Demons the "boss fight/encounter" at the end of so many quests (Shale, Red Cliff, Warden's Keep?). I'm afraid that Return To Ostagar is going to be Return to A Desire Demon controlling Duncan's corpse asking to make a deal with me...

/sigh



Shush, you just delayed the DLC because now they have to rework the whole boss fight there... ;)

#60
Spaceweed10

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Stanley Woo wrote...

cipher86 wrote...

No boss fight feels like such.  I actually find all boss encounters to be easier than random encounters and some general battles.

Like the four faced statue in the Deep Roads.  Uninspired and boring.

Please help us out by clarifying your criticisms.

what does a boss fight "feel" like? How do we make them equally difficult for everyone, and how can we measure that? What makes you the baseline measurement rather than someone who finds them too difficult?

And while the 4-faced statue is not a boss fight--most, I believe, would refer to that as a "gimmick fight"--how could we make it more inspired and less boring?

Random criticism is all well and good, but to help us make things better, you should also give us suggestions on how to improve ourselves. Which boss fights in which games are good examples of such to you? What makes them good? What makes them bad?


Now you've 'really' done it, Stanley...

#61
Spaceweed10

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Gabochido wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

My thoughts upon seeing High Dragons, Ogres, and Sylvan Trees using Massive Attacks to knock my damage-dealing Rogues on their asses varied from utter frustration to sheer amazement.

Definite appreciation!


There's a specific talent on one of the weapon styles just for that!


What?  On the Rogue trees?

#62
Skellimancer

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I for one am glad the did not add bosses that require an hour to kill.



MMO's that way ----->

#63
I saved Star Wars :D

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Skellimancer wrote...

I for one am glad the did not add bosses that require an hour to kill.


Is the right answer.

#64
Wintermist

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Skellimancer wrote...

I for one am glad the did not add bosses that require an hour to kill.

MMO's that way ----->


No one said they wanted it that way either. to read the whole thread, look that way ^^^^^^

#65
Beechwell

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SomeoneStoleMyName wrote...


To show you a good boss battle ill make one as an example.
[...]

Now that is a fight I wouldn't want to see in a game like Dragon Age. I see the attraction for such fights in MMOs, but in a story focused game like DA it feels far to constructed. This boss is obviously set up to be a kind of puzzle you have to solve. And artificially prolonged boss-fights with many stages is not what I would like to see in a game where it is not the primary focus to figure out boss scripted boss encounters, but general adventuring, character development, role play and story
Of course everyone likes different things about games, but this seems to draw way too much on WOW like gaming (that your boss is a lich also hints that that's where you are coming from - I never saw any lichs in Thedas). I think DA should concentrate on other qualities.

#66
Sloth Of Doom

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Skellimancer wrote...

I for one am glad the did not add bosses that require an hour to kill.

MMO's that way ----->


+1

#67
cipher86

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Nosuchluck wrote...

I actually find myself agreeing with Cipher on some parts. I think he's overeacting with how much it negatively effects the game though, it's still very enjoyable and one of the best RPG's I've played.


Hmm... well.  I do think the game is enjoyable enough, but given the parts that bother me, I can't give it more than a 7/10.  DA:O is not my brainchild, but I feel there is much room for improvement.

#68
Wintermist

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What people seem to misunderstand is that the fight doesn't have to be as long as you think it will have to be to include the options given here. If anyone has been touched by the WoW daemon, it be you yourself, since you keep thinking along the lines of that game only.

#69
xCirdanx

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Gabochido wrote...

The first part of your post makes me feel all depressed about our gameplay :(. However, I do believe that for most people we did a good job. But know that we do take all the feedback we can and whenever good, feasible ideas come up, we try to incorporate them into our new designs. And all the feedback from this thread will certainly help with the boss fights.


your gameplay is great as it is for DA. Us people who complain about lack of depth are just too used to the "plan ahead D&D systems" ;)

It´s solid and works well. And i know how hard such things are to program i realy do <_<

The loud crowd is the least to listen too. Otherwise we will have an incredible easy, trivial, mmo like game the next time you make one. (as if i would believe that..) Tough there are some good points. My opinion.

#70
Gabo

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Spaceweed10 wrote...

Gabochido wrote... 
There's a specific talent on one of the weapon styles just for that!

What?  On the Rogue trees?


Nope <_<, I I guess hacking at large creatures isn't what rogues are best at. Don't want to say more though, since this should be in the gameplay forum (and probably already is somewhere).

#71
a silent warrior

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Every good boss encounter should require unique and extensive preparations before the fight: selection of party members, weapons, armor, potions, buffs, traps etc. Bosses shouldn't scale to the party level or anything like that. A fight if taken on foolishly should mean defeat plain and simple.



A battle plan including how to position each and every party member for maximum use is a must. Every party member should need to use his/her skills almost perfectly to win and in most cases these fights will take long time and really deplete the party resources.



Bosses should be tough of course and almost invicible, but I like them to have at least one weakness. A weakness the party should be able to exploit if clever.

#72
soteria

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Well, I'll mention the bosses I thought were good, and ones I thought were "weak," and what could be improved.



The spider boss in the Deep Roads has been mentioned. I liked it because it was challenging but not in an unfair way--it would summon spiders and web my whole party, but it wasn't a situation where I would have to pray to the RNG gods to survive the web. It just meant I had to be quick about recovering after the web.



The revenants/gaxxkang were all pretty good. They felt tough to kill, and were resistant to some AI abuse like kiting, and had abilities you could react to if you were fast (you can run out of range to avoid Double Strike if you're fast enough, or get behind cover to avoid getting pulled into range).



The Broodmother was pretty good, because of the phased feel of the fight and the different elements to watch out for. I liked the adds and the tentacles, but what I thought was weaker here was the opportunity to get into positions where the Broodmother couldn't damage you. I don't think that should ever be possible in a well-designed boss fight.



Jarvia was a pretty good boss fight. She was dangerous, took a long time to kill, and seemed to switch targets more than other bosses. Her calling for help at low health, and the trapped areas in the room, kept the fight from being non-trivial and made geography significant. What I didn't like about this fight, and many others like it, was the forced conversation/grouping up at the beginning. I know it's so your whole group is there in the cutscene, but I wish there were a way of avoiding the problem.



The Archdemon was a "cool" fight because of the named NPCs appearing and the continuously spawning darkspawn and highly mobile boss. Interesting fight and felt fairly epic. The breath attack seemed pretty weak, though.



The Arcane Horror near the werewolves lair was a lot of fun the first time I fought him. He teleported around, got help from friends, and cast a variety of spells on my party. The second time he was insanely easy--you can attack him with ranged from beyond his casting range, and while he was considering that, my warrior PC and Sten ran down and chained their stuns/knockdowns on him.



Dragons in general should have been great bosses but fell flat in a few ways. It is just way too punishing and flat-out annoying to melee dragons. You're far better off having everyone use a ranged weapon and healing through the fire spits and breaths. Grab was often just a death sentence if I got in melee, since most melee stuns felt too unreliable. Cone of Cold worked best to save the tank, but it's impossible to stay in range as a mage with wing buffet and everything else happening.



The four-faced statue mentioned earlier wasn't a boss, but was still annoying because of my party's behavior. If I didn't put everyone on hold, my party would run to the middle trying to attack the statue and ending up doing nothing if I didn't manually move them away. Even mages and archers did this.



Some general bosses that oculd have been much cooler are the ogres in general. I feel like I should be able to dodge the "Ram" attack, but it's impossible, and can be pretty brutal in some situations. My warrior PC ran into one by himself in the Fade and had to reload numerous times because the Ogre would just ram him over and over again, or pick him up and bite his head off. It's ok to get stunned or knocked over in a boss fight, but they shouldn't be chaining abilities like that so much. I've gotten rammed 3x in a row, and there's absolutely nothing a sword/shield warrior can do to stop it (their stuns take too long to wind up).



Other general issues that don't necessarily apply to bosses that would make encounters more fun/meaningful:



--Lower the range on bows, crossbows, and staves. IMO it's a problem when I can attack from far enough away that the AI doesn't know how to deal with it. I would say if I can shoot them, they should be smart enough to run toward me (and not one at a time!).



--It's been said, but make it so enemies and allies no longer attack forcefielded targets. It's annoying when my allies waste their time and mana/stamina attacking an immune target, and it's comical when the enemies do it.



--Beaf up the hostility system. Taunt is amazingly powerful--with it, everyone attacks me. Without it, I can't get a monsters attention to save someone's life, it seems. Threaten helps only a little. Currently monsters seem too disposed to attack and stick with their initial target. It's somewhat annoying when I can't pull a monster off Wynne when I don't have enough stamina to taunt, and it's just stupid the way enemies will follow you forever once you have aggro.



Maybe enemies that use melee should check every 5-10 seconds for a closer target if their current target is out of range. Running away *should* be viable for a bit, but I feel cheesy when I have a character try to run away just to survive, and end up kiting a boss in a circle for half a minute (or he'll kill me) while everyone else kills him. Either that, or more bosses need an effective method to deal with kiting (switching to ranged attacks, calling help, running faster, something).



--In general, diminishing returns on stuns/immobilize effects, both on the party and on enemies. A shield warrior can very nearly keep a mage knocked down or stunned indefinitely by rotating abilities. You're limited by stamina in that case, but with a little help it's not a problem. Stuns *should* work to lock down a boss or the PC for a short time, but as I mentioned earlier they shouldn't be chainable indefinitely.



--Raise the cooldown on cone of cold. It's a great spell, very useful tactically, and I love it, but that cooldown is just amazingly short in relation to its duration, even with just a single mage.



I know I mentioned a lot of things that aren't really boss encounters, but to me the design of game mechanics plays a large part in how boss fights go and how interesting and challenging they are. I can (and do) just choose not to abuse certain game mechanics/spells, but it still cheapens the experience knowing that I have to hold a hand behind my back to get a challenge. IMO I should be able to play my hardest and use all of my abilities and not feel like I'm cheating.

#73
cipher86

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Wintermist wrote...

What people seem to misunderstand is that the fight doesn't have to be as long as you think it will have to be to include the options given here. If anyone has been touched by the WoW daemon, it be you yourself, since you keep thinking along the lines of that game only.


QFT

A boss fight that leaves the feeling of "That. Was. EPIC!!!" can last all of 5 minutes.

#74
SomeoneStoleMyName

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Skellimancer wrote...

I for one am glad the did not add bosses that require an hour to kill.

MMO's that way ----->



Who says they need to last long? They should atleast have some challenge and variety. Noone can deny WOW has many boss battles that are extremely well designed... however, i agree that they are taking it to the extreme at times.

A bad boss battle also includes this imo be it an MMO or Single player:

1)Lasts for AGES (unless its a really epic fight, then its excusable)
2) Drowns in to many factors like, if you dont do A+B, then D. Your 3rd character dies and if Z isnt Y, that happens and .... so on.

Ive said it before and say it again, i truly love dragon age. But the bosses are boring, unimaginative, repetative and easy.

#75
SomeoneStoleMyName

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Now that is a fight I wouldn't want to see in a game like Dragon Age. I see the attraction for such fights in MMOs, but in a story focused game like DA it feels far to constructed. This boss is obviously set up to be a kind of puzzle you have to solve. And artificially prolonged boss-fights with many stages is not what I would like to see in a game where it is not the primary focus to figure out boss scripted boss encounters, but general adventuring, character development, role play and story
Of course everyone likes different things about games, but this seems to draw way too much on WOW like gaming (that your boss is a lich also hints that that's where you are coming from - I never saw any lichs in Thedas). I think DA should concentrate on other qualities.


If you think of my example, imagine it. Then it really is neither advanced or long. I say maybe 10 minutes with lots of pausing. What it does have is actuall strategy, tactics, terrain, gear and common sense checks. "Ooh he used repulsion to protect himself. HMMM" for example.

Again i used the battle as an example. And also again, where are people getting WOW from all the time? They got many boss battles right. But also many boss battles in WOW sucks. And this is true for mostly all games that includes bosses.