113 réponses à ce sujet

[my display name is what you just read]

foxshadowblade, dont get me wrong, i loved your post and every bit of it is my thoughts exactly, but im just wondering bout the 100 plus hours lol.

[Elishiaila]

SomeBug wrote...

So they create a test. A test for both organics and synthetics, for the entire galaxy. This test is called the Catalyst,
and its purpose is to ensure that all life has a place in the galaxy and that it has evolved to the point where it can co-exist peacefully.

Too bad that you contradict your conclusion about syntethics destroying organics. EDI, current Geth, etc. doesn't want that, and they don't start to use up endless resources, and their ways of living wouldn't lead to that point. Overcrowding by organics would be a bigger problem.

Protheans didn't have direct problems with their own machine race, they were the problem themselves. The problem wasn't a destructive race of machines, but an oppressive race of organics. And no other civilizations would be free of their influence and it would hurt valuable civilizations.

The key is: By helping Geth, accepting them, making friends with them, showing the meaning of love to EDI we shown how we can accept even a fast evolving but young machine race. A fast evolving but young civilization. Heck, even humans on the council shown we solved the problem. And the newest race on the council was there uniting the universe. There is hope for new races, so the cycle can be longer.

There is no reason why Reapers can't decide, they see this unity, they see cooperation... So they will come back once in a while to see if things have changed, but as long as they don't have to act they wait. With this change, which is possible with current catalyst the entire safeguard with Reapers could stay without any control from Shepard. In this case we would revert to a "normal" universe, with living heroes, etc.

If you say: "but conflict can errupt". I say: And catalyst is on board of Citadel, the conflict would be seen and Reapers would come. Waiting costs nothing.

Also: You try to explain why control is a viable option. Yes, it is. But why would Shepard has to be the one controling the Reapers? If Shepard can trust Legion, and can trust many friendly Geth, who wouldn't die but just get uploaded to a next platform, why cant Shepard choose one?

Their consensus, how they choose peace even after long war, etc. would make them better candidates and it wouldn't be *any* sacrifice.

Ok. EDI can be in many places at once. Why couldn't Shepard trust an AI who managed to understand life, love, hope, etc. to "use more resources" and control reapers as well? 

So even if Reapers can't change cycle without giving out control, Shepard would have other candidates for this task. And Shepard can see as human (s)he can see some creatures monsters. But an AI who learned these values would be more neutral and better suited for the job.

Ok, lets pretend the reapers can't even accept this. But why can't we ask the catalyst about these options? 

[my display name is what you just read]

Wraith 02 wrote...

my display name is what you just read wrote...

^^ howd you have 100 plus hours in the play through when its only been out for 3 days?

Earliest it was playable was 3pm Monday which is roughly 105 hours ago
Still stupid to have played 100 hours though

eh, i guess so, but i doubt somebody played 100 hours straight of mass effect lol, but still dont get me wrong, his arguement is perfect. and i want better endings, i didnt work so hard for that lol

[Thrazesul]

OP, your point is very good and I agree fully with you.

Regarding the hours, perhaps it was all games combined. I know I've spent more than that on all three games combined... all for nothing apparantly.

[Elishiaila]

Wraith 02 wrote...

my display name is what you just read wrote...

^^ howd you have 100 plus hours in the play through when its only been out for 3 days?

Earliest it was playable was 3pm Monday which is roughly 105 hours ago
Still stupid to have played 100 hours though

I think it was released in Asia first, USA next, Europe last. Not sure when it was released in Asia, but their head start can make it possible. Also if you count how you practiced things in the demo... Or speak about the combined playing time of the trilogy... You end up with interesting numbers  

[JrSlackin]

my display name is what you just read wrote...

JrSlackin wrote...

 I actually like this, this is my thoughts exactly.

The only disagreement I have is on the Illusive Man. His intentions WERE NOT good for controlling the Reapers. His intention was human dominance, not to save the galaxy and bring peace.

I understand that the Illusive man was evil, but he could still be a nice asset to have along your side if you were able to convince him to join you.

Honestly I saw it coming that he would pull a Saren near the end. Even reading the books though it's full force that he cares little for the other races, and his true goal was to make humanity the top of the food chain.

[Sylvanfeather]

my display name is what you just read wrote...

When you say destroy ending, is that red or green? because i chose blue because i figured that was the paragon. i actually didnt even know the middle was an option till my friend told me about it

The blue option is the Control choice - which the Catalyst clearly states will kill you. As a Paragon, would Shepard choose agree to what might be considered replacing Harbinger's role? Perhaps, in order to save organics & synthetics.

The Destroy option is red - which aligns to Renegade, I guess. Ruthless Shepard choose to live and kills synthetics. Though, you only see the "lives" cutscene if you have a high enough EMS number.

[Anthadlas]

Elishiaila wrote...

Wraith 02 wrote...

my display name is what you just read wrote...

^^ howd you have 100 plus hours in the play through when its only been out for 3 days?

Earliest it was playable was 3pm Monday which is roughly 105 hours ago
Still stupid to have played 100 hours though

I think it was released in Asia first, USA next, Europe last. Not sure when it was released in Asia, but their head start can make it possible. Also if you count how you practiced things in the demo... Or speak about the combined playing time of the trilogy... You end up with interesting numbers  

Aye asia was first at 00:00 Tuesday, but due to timezones u can get it earlier than that using a VPN from another country. For me it was 15:00 Monday being 9 hours behind em

[idunhavaname]

Worded perfectly. I can live with the destruction of the Mass Relays but to see my squad stranded on some unknown planet completely isolated from earth never to return back is heartbreaking.

[Almostfaceman]

@SomeBug

I agree with you up to a point. I still don't see Shepard caving in to the three choices of the Reaper Management. 

In all three of the choices, the Avatar of Reaper Top Dawg tells Shepard that the relays are going to be destroyed. This happens where Shepard just saw what the result of a relay destruction is - the elimination of a solar system. Why would he agree to all of these potential bombs going off, killing trillions? There is no reassurance or exploration of whether or not this destruction is inevitable or not. As a matter of fact, we see bright "explosions" as the Relays are eliminated one by one in a galactic overview.

There is no discussion between Avatar and Shepard. There is the Avatar laying out how it is, and Shepard accepting one of the choices. 

I know this is a video game, and that a realistic dialogue is not possible. 

But where's the skepticism? Where's the "wait, so this Catalyst has opened new possibilties for you, let me talk to you about those. Look, here are the Geth and Quarians working together..." Where's "what will happen to my friends?" Where's "you created the Reapers, I'm not cooperating with you, these may all be a trap. We're fighting to the bitter end."  Where's "we have an army great enough to defeat you, bow down or face destruction."?

Beyond that, where's an ending that can integrate with the choices we made during the series? The entire game is through the viewpoint of Shepard and his crew. Why suddenly change that? Endings that follow the spirit of Shepard's view on self-determination.

Choose to fight the Reapers on your own terms - if you have your war assets high enough victory is possible at high cost. Then we see the outcomes through the eyes of the surviving squad.

Choose to merge with the Reapers and control them - united forces over time begin to scatter and bicker, and then a meeting of old squadmates and they're discussing an "avatar of the Shepard" appearing amongst the masses warning against dissention and threatening the return of Reaper punishment.

Choose accept Reaper technology to placate the Avatar and we see Shep and his team together and wondering if in the end the decision to do this will end in them themselves becoming what they have just defeated.

What the weapon should have been and remained was just that - a weapon. A symbol of self-determination and what the races of the galaxy (organic AND synthetic) could achieve on their own to defeat the manipulation of the Reapers. Instead, it's turned into another facet of the Reapers. 

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 10 mars 2012 - 11:39 .

[JrSlackin]

@Almostfaceman

That was another small detail they left out. In Arrival we see the full force of what happens when a Mass Relay goes "poof" and we find out we're going to pretty much blow them all up, we don't see if it's the same type of "poof" as shoving a huge asteroid into one.

The dialogue option was also a huge deal in my opinion, where a perfect opportunity to figure things out just kinda fell flat on its face. I'll say it again it lacks proper closure.

Lastly, I was fine with the ending up until the old man and the child, it made me scratch my head and go, "what the what", with this only leading into so many more unanswered questions leaving huge gaps wide open.

Just my opinion though.

[lacoangeal]

To the OP~
Very excellent post—I like very much where your head's at. Well thought-out and takes a (very) little bit of the edge off my anger. But that's the first part of the problem right there--your audio/video-free TEXTUAL explanation of the endings did a better job making things clear than the actual endings themselves.

Having said that, I cannot help but disagree with a few points you make. There is not enough evidence to state definitively that the Reapers/Catalyst were designed by organics (although this is certainly one possibility). The scenario you present (organics looking out at a galaxy torn by war between themselves and synthetics, then deciding to design the “cycle-test”) does not make sense. If this ancient race of organics had the technology and ability to create something as advanced as the Reapers (not to mention ensuring total control over their creations for the next few million years), how could a synthetic race that was any less powerful than the Reapers have posed any threat to them and lead to the "galaxy in flames" situation you describe? Can you see how the assumption that this whole test was designed by organics creates far more problematic questions than it solves? Who were the ancient synthetics? What happened to them? If they were advanced enough to challenge a race capable of creating the Reapers, why did they not win the war? Where are they now? If it is true that, as the game states, “the created will ALWAYS rebel against their creators,” why have the Reapers continued to serve as the janitors of the galaxy for millions of years? Where is THEIR rebellion?

There are only two possibilities here: 1) the ancient synthetics were less powerful than the Reapers, in which case they would have been destroyed by the ancient organics with no need for this elaborate test, or 2) the ancient synthetics were more powerful than the Reapers, in which case the creation of the Reapers/Catalyst test would have failed because it would all have been destroyed by the ancient synthetics.

If all we have to go on is the information presented by the game, it is every bit as likely the Reapers were designed by a benevolent race of synthetics who wanted to ensure organic life would never be completely wiped out, as it is that they were designed by organics.

You suggest that, as part of the test, the Reapers were told to do "everything in their power" to prevent the Catalyst from ever being used.  Wouldn't that include TURNING OFF THE FREAKING BEAM that teleports people to the Citadel???!!!  I spent the entire last hour of the game asking myself this question.  Why do they need to send down a destroyer to prevent anyone from getting to the beam when they can just TURN THE DAMN THING OFF?

Also--story, logical, continuity issues asside, any ending that involves a half an hour of the player creeeeeeeeping along at a snail's pace has serious issues.  Yeah.  Shepard's injured.  I get it.

Hmmm. There are so many more things that could be said but I realize this post is getting a little long. Suffice to
say I really like your explanation of things and I wish I could just accept it and be happy, but in the end I have to say it is my opinion that you are just a little too forgiving, or maybe just more forgiving than I find myself able to be. As I see it, there are MANY more problems with the endings than the one you have presented, though you couldn’t be more right about the issue you describe being perhaps the most aggravating one.

One final thought—I think the biggest problem I have with the endings, other than the “lack of hope” that you have so eloquently described, is that I am judging them against what they COULD have been. I think that is the major difference between your approach and mine—you seem to take the endings for what they are and (expertly) analyze what works and what doesn’t about them. I am looking at the endings in the light of what they are not. There were SO many different directions they could have taken to wrap up the story. The final product we are left with passes muster for me only if I ignore all the other approaches that are forever lost to us now that they have committed to the one we are left with.

Modifié par lacoangeal, 10 mars 2012 - 01:14 .

[Steptroll]

You summed it up perfectly, thank you.

Such a great (but flawed) game ruined by a few minutes. Damn shame.

[StarcloudSWG]

I like the explanation. I like many of the points that have been brought up by this thread. I agree the whole thing was presented very poorly; There needed to be *far* more explanation than there was, and it needed to be pushed throughout the game and hinted at in more places than just three very brief dream sequences and a five minute simple-minded explanation at the end.

Hint to the Bioware writers: If you, as humans, are writing a story, it is, by nature, understandable to other humans. That's something that's always bugged me about the Reapers; Their motives *are* comprehensible, but they're presented as if they're not. If the entire plot can be distilled into words a five year old can understand, then don't say it's 'incomprehensible to lesser organics.'

[JrSlackin]

StarcloudSWG wrote...

I like the explanation. I like many of the points that have been brought up by this thread. I agree the whole thing was presented very poorly; There needed to be *far* more explanation than there was, and it needed to be pushed throughout the game and hinted at in more places than just three very brief dream sequences and a five minute simple-minded explanation at the end.

Hint to the Bioware writers: If you, as humans, are writing a story, it is, by nature, understandable to other humans. That's something that's always bugged me about the Reapers; Their motives *are* comprehensible, but they're presented as if they're not. If the entire plot can be distilled into words a five year old can understand, then don't say it's 'incomprehensible to lesser organics.'

I don't know if he was put full force into SWTOR or not, but Drew Karpyshyn is a great writer and storyteller. I don't think he was invovled with Mass Effect 3, who was the writer for the first two and the first three Mass Effect novels which were amazing.

He didn't write the recent novel, Deception, and look what happend with that.
He didn't do anything involved with this, and look what happened.

By all means I'm not trying to say it was awful, because everything else besides the ending was amazing, but it goes to show how much one person can make or break or something.

[bluecuban]

I really like you're analysis SomeBug. The philosophical elements I agreed with in terms of the ending greatly and i did enjoy. As far as the big hate being in regards to the Normandy, I think you're spot-on.

All those crew members, in light of your end, are the link to the changing world. The represent every choice you have made throughout this trilogy and shaped their homeworlds Without them to illustrate what you've done, what's there to be happy about? Well done sir.

[QuirkyGroundhog]

I'm still fairly certain that the Normandy problem is bad editing, not a plothole. When I was on top of the Citadel, the battle looked pretty lost, and it made perfect sense to me that the Normandy was retreating, as many ships probably were. Only when I came to the forums did I find this was a major headache for others. It also seemed to me like time had passed, and as such my crew still groundside had gotten back aboard the Normandy before the retreat. Seriously, I had no issues with this. It surprised me others did.

[QuirkyGroundhog]

SomeBug wrote...

Snip

.

I just want to say that I tried posting this earlier, but you articulated it better. Though I still hold that the Normandy isn't a plothole, just ****ty editing.

[Mathias]

I couldn't agree more OP.

[HrzRanok]

People need some vision. The mass relays were just another method of control. To prevent the possibility of another cycle beginning they needed to be destroyed.
Also people wont starve or die out as you say they will. Everyone is now a synthetic/organic combine. They probably no longer need sleep, food, or other limitations that organic life alone had that synthetic life offered.
Take the perfect imortality of synthetics and place with them the organic spirit of life and you get a perfect combination.

In the epilogue after the credits this is obvious if you look at it. They were standing on a baren frozen plane. It didn't look like there was much food around. I wopuld assume they didn't need it.

The mass relays were a function of the reapers and I am glad they are gone. Now life can evolve on its own.

[gothicslo]

Okey so i will make the same reply here, i want to have a fourth option to have a happy life wth the charecters we romance, a DLC would be nice, dont get me wrong the gameplay is the best but the ending is just unbareble

[drfox96]

thnx a lot for this , i really needed it

wt i hate is that i spent 200+ hours playing through ME 1,2,3 and i think the only time i finished all side quest in first play through is in ME3 only to be sure i get the best ending . just to be slabbed with 3 different colors and the same exact ending .
they even didnt care to change endings cinematics . wtevr u choose mass relays are destroyed , soldiers in London facing a reaper , reapers leaving , Normandy escaping and crashing ( all with different colors offcourse ) . that seems to be rushed

[Necroscope]

Thanks for the good read OP, hope somebody will take it seriously.

[drfox96]

lacoangeal wrote...


There are only two possibilities here: 1) the ancient synthetics were less powerful than the Reapers, in which case they would have been destroyed by the ancient organics with no need for this elaborate test, or 2) the ancient synthetics were more powerful than the Reapers, in which case the creation of the Reapers/Catalyst test would have failed because it would all have been destroyed by the ancient synthetics.

or may be the ancient organics defeated the reapers but with a great cost like destruction of entire systems ,or extintion of races or even destruction of basic resources that they faced extinction . may be their triamph was matched by great losses that they decided to prevent it from happening again .

i think the next step for the geth was to be reapers them selves ... i mean they did kick the quarians from their homeplanet 

[realpokerjedi]

I smell stupidity from the writers.
I can see this sadly....
When the mass relays exploded it sent the Normandy backwards through time and they land back thousands of years ago on Eden prime.
This is where you get to create a new hero dealing with new issues.
This concept could be tied into a MMO horridly or DLC.
Seems stupid enough for them to do.
And of course who is alive depended on the final mission.
This doesn't cure the issue with the ghost kid and won't fix the horrible writing.
I would have loved to play the game ending you came up with man, thanks for posting this.

Modifié par realpokerjedi, 10 mars 2012 - 11:53 .