I agree so much, I don't really mind the ending until I see Normandy leaving Sol System for no reason and crashing to some unknown world, it leaves such a sour taste to the series...
Here's why the ending is bad. Let's make it clear to avoid confusion.
Débuté par
SomeBug
, mars 09 2012 10:37
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#52
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 12:12
thoaloa
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HrzRanok wrote...
People need some vision. The mass relays were just another method of control. To prevent the possibility of another cycle beginning they needed to be destroyed.
Also people wont starve or die out as you say they will. Everyone is now a synthetic/organic combine. They probably no longer need sleep, food, or other limitations that organic life alone had that synthetic life offered.
Take the perfect imortality of synthetics and place with them the organic spirit of life and you get a perfect combination.
In the epilogue after the credits this is obvious if you look at it. They were standing on a baren frozen plane. It didn't look like there was much food around. I wopuld assume they didn't need it.
The mass relays were a function of the reapers and I am glad they are gone. Now life can evolve on its own.
This is now a fairy tail. No need to eat, sleep, no limitations, immoratality, no conflict between sythetic and organics (What about regular conflict?), sound a bit too far fetched.
There is some meta irony of the whole control thing doing anything the AI kid god thing says is listening to the reaper's leader instructions and forcing the evolution of the entire galaxy forever along their desired path.
The mass effect relays were a potential form of control one that they could not capatialize on becuase the seintient citadel was too lazy and advances in technology were already starting to poke at the gates "hidden" functions. If you got rid of the stupid AI the gates are just transport corridors and nothing more. If the people can make their own mass effect network then eventually they can just hack the gates to change them to whatever they choose. (Free will still intact, they could even decommission them if they find a better tech but any gap in long distance FTL is going to upturn the whole galaxy)
Converting all life to cybernetic life is like saying I am your god and you will be half synthetic now.
Also making everything technologically based also makes them more vunrable to control as they can be influenced by more direct hacking methods. (Evil?)
#53
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 12:19
Ahms
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Just something to clear up. The kid on Earth was real. The Catalyst simply used Shepard's memories of the kid to present himself as something familiar in his psyche (remember the dreams).
And yes, the endings were poorly executed. Endings are supposed to give closure. The endings only brought about more unanswered questions and left things gapingly open.
And yes, the endings were poorly executed. Endings are supposed to give closure. The endings only brought about more unanswered questions and left things gapingly open.
Modifié par Ahms, 10 mars 2012 - 12:21 .
#54
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 12:22
thoaloa
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Ahms wrote...
Just something to clear up. The kid on Earth was real. The Catalyst simply used Shepard's memories of the kid to present himself as something familiar in his psyche (remember the dreams).
I would have prefered if you could blow up that AI with the power of love dr who style. Then I would just laugh instead.
#55
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 12:40
Dresden867
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You've elaborated nicely here on the one thing that bugged me about the ending. "Why did the Normandy need to go crash somewhere else, exactly?"
#57
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 01:22
ace1221
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i literally just finished the game. For the record i picked the control the reapers option. The ending doesnt annoy me that much (im still trying to figure it out for myself) yes the normandy scene is rather pointless but it is good to see that they all survive (theyll be back). i also hate that they destroyed the mass relays (though im pretty sure they will also be back in some way)
The simple fact of the matter is this: the ending was forced through necessity to be open ended and somewhat vague. Let me put it this way: all the plot lines from ME1 and ME2 were tied up by the end of ME3, yet within those plot lines, any number of variations could occur between different players that would change a tailor made ending in such a away as to make it impossible to pull off and as a result no one would be happy. The scene with the normandy, and the scene with the stargazer add mystic to the ending, but such is the way of the universe.
A similar ending happened in GOW3 (wont post spoilers here) but needless to say that while the main plot lines are sorted out, the final few hours of the game raise new questions that will more than likely be addressed by the next GOW game.
Mass Effect will be back, of this i have no doubt. The universe created is too large, its story deep (and from what i heard sales figures are booming). The answers to the endings lie in the years ahead.
One final thought: Have any of you ever read the end of a series or seen the end of a tv show that doesnt leave some element of mystic?
The simple fact of the matter is this: the ending was forced through necessity to be open ended and somewhat vague. Let me put it this way: all the plot lines from ME1 and ME2 were tied up by the end of ME3, yet within those plot lines, any number of variations could occur between different players that would change a tailor made ending in such a away as to make it impossible to pull off and as a result no one would be happy. The scene with the normandy, and the scene with the stargazer add mystic to the ending, but such is the way of the universe.
A similar ending happened in GOW3 (wont post spoilers here) but needless to say that while the main plot lines are sorted out, the final few hours of the game raise new questions that will more than likely be addressed by the next GOW game.
Mass Effect will be back, of this i have no doubt. The universe created is too large, its story deep (and from what i heard sales figures are booming). The answers to the endings lie in the years ahead.
One final thought: Have any of you ever read the end of a series or seen the end of a tv show that doesnt leave some element of mystic?
#58
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 02:06
ransom2111
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Thank you for the post OP, it helped me getting over the ending, even if just a little.
I as many others, it seems, feel a bit cheated. I've put many any hours into all the mass effect games just to have Shepard torn away from Liara and never get to see all the blue children that they have talked about.
I am a sucker for happy endings, so that might be why I feel so confused by the presented endings and can only hope that there will be some DLC or comic that can make me feel better about the endings.
I as many others, it seems, feel a bit cheated. I've put many any hours into all the mass effect games just to have Shepard torn away from Liara and never get to see all the blue children that they have talked about.
I am a sucker for happy endings, so that might be why I feel so confused by the presented endings and can only hope that there will be some DLC or comic that can make me feel better about the endings.
#59
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 02:31
Ellestor
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Human advancement, not necessarily dominance. It's a distinction that ME2 emphasizes repeatedly.JrSlackin wrote...
I actually like this, this is my thoughts exactly.
The only disagreement I have is on the Illusive Man. His intentions WERE NOT good for controlling the Reapers. His intention was human dominance, not to save the galaxy and bring peace.
Saren's intentions were good as well, you'll note, in that he saw placating the Reapers as the only way organics could survive. Indoctrination has a way of appealing to the best intentions.
#60
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 02:35
carnage4u
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my concern is mostly around why the normandy had to crash, and what that imply's to all other ships outside of earth? did they all get knocked destroyed or forced to crash random places? how did normady get so far away from earth anyway?
The relays being destroyed as already stated seems to really screw up the galaxy bad. Millions of people separated, and probably dead because of it.
Even if shepared lived (and i maxed out single player effort, and he still died) does it matter if he is alive somewhere random, if everyone he cares about is somewhere else in the galaxy he can never get to?
The relays being destroyed as already stated seems to really screw up the galaxy bad. Millions of people separated, and probably dead because of it.
Even if shepared lived (and i maxed out single player effort, and he still died) does it matter if he is alive somewhere random, if everyone he cares about is somewhere else in the galaxy he can never get to?
Modifié par carnage4u, 10 mars 2012 - 02:39 .
#61
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 11:18
Kristov1986
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Thanks SomeBug for this topic.
I was looking for something like this since i finished the game. It was good to read some new theories about ending.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with few of them. I really don't think it was an organic race that created reapers, test, catalyst etc. Organic races couldn't do this because they were always whiped out.
Reapers are the peak of evolution. I think there was another cycle.
Synthetic life represents order. Because machines calculate everything and always try to reach conensus. Everything they do is logically correct.
Organic life represents chaos. Organics have emotions, their actions are often illogical - chaotic. They are variables that sets things in motion.
Reapers are trying to keep things in motion, so they create organic life - chaos. Sooner or later organics create machines which are whiping them out. Then, new synthetics upgreat themselves to the form of the reaper. Reapers are creating organics and everything starts over.
The "upgreating" part went always the same way. So reapers decided to cut it off and created smaller cycle known in Mass Effect. The solution for "constant" chaos.
Reapers created citadel, the crucifer. They created the whole "playground" for organics so they could mix things up more efficient.
In the end "the catalyst" couldn't make the choice cause it would be logical choice. He was looking for random decision which only Shepard could make.
Choices are interesting:
1) Destruction of reapers is the worst possible choice. It just starts everything over again. Organics will create machines, machines will destroy them and evolve into reapers.
2) Control. This is actually interesting. A lot depends of what Shepard will do later with the reapers. (S)He can create new cycle - and keep destroying all synthetics every couple thousands of years. (S)He can leave the galaxy and let things be the way it was before. Actually, there are tousands of options. But in the end, I think option
3) Synthesis is unavoidable. It creates a whole new reality which is unknown.
About Normandy running away and crushing somewhere... i don't have any problem with that. It seems like it's been a while between Shepard passed out and waked up next to the catalyst. Minutes, hours maybe. A lot could happen in the meantime. The crucifier wasn't shooting so they were probably retreating, evacuating.
Obviously I'd like to receive some conclusion. I'd like to know what happend to Krogans, Turians, Asari. But when you look at the big picture, and think about the decision you just made - it doesn't really matter.
I was looking for something like this since i finished the game. It was good to read some new theories about ending.
Unfortunately, I have to disagree with few of them. I really don't think it was an organic race that created reapers, test, catalyst etc. Organic races couldn't do this because they were always whiped out.
Reapers are the peak of evolution. I think there was another cycle.
Synthetic life represents order. Because machines calculate everything and always try to reach conensus. Everything they do is logically correct.
Organic life represents chaos. Organics have emotions, their actions are often illogical - chaotic. They are variables that sets things in motion.
Reapers are trying to keep things in motion, so they create organic life - chaos. Sooner or later organics create machines which are whiping them out. Then, new synthetics upgreat themselves to the form of the reaper. Reapers are creating organics and everything starts over.
The "upgreating" part went always the same way. So reapers decided to cut it off and created smaller cycle known in Mass Effect. The solution for "constant" chaos.
Reapers created citadel, the crucifer. They created the whole "playground" for organics so they could mix things up more efficient.
In the end "the catalyst" couldn't make the choice cause it would be logical choice. He was looking for random decision which only Shepard could make.
Choices are interesting:
1) Destruction of reapers is the worst possible choice. It just starts everything over again. Organics will create machines, machines will destroy them and evolve into reapers.
2) Control. This is actually interesting. A lot depends of what Shepard will do later with the reapers. (S)He can create new cycle - and keep destroying all synthetics every couple thousands of years. (S)He can leave the galaxy and let things be the way it was before. Actually, there are tousands of options. But in the end, I think option
3) Synthesis is unavoidable. It creates a whole new reality which is unknown.
About Normandy running away and crushing somewhere... i don't have any problem with that. It seems like it's been a while between Shepard passed out and waked up next to the catalyst. Minutes, hours maybe. A lot could happen in the meantime. The crucifier wasn't shooting so they were probably retreating, evacuating.
Obviously I'd like to receive some conclusion. I'd like to know what happend to Krogans, Turians, Asari. But when you look at the big picture, and think about the decision you just made - it doesn't really matter.
Modifié par Kristov1986, 10 mars 2012 - 11:43 .
#62
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 11:26
Fjordgnu
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Something just occurred to me about the synergy ending.
Why would Shepard have to leap into the energy beam? I mean, the kid says "add your energy", but what does that mean? There's nothing special about Shepard's "energy". I assume it's talking about genetics, DNA, something like that. Why wouldn't it be enough to throw a little blood in there? Why would the highly advanced energy .. beam need all of Shepard for his DNA, when it's all contained in each cell of our body?
It just makes no scientific sense.
Why would Shepard have to leap into the energy beam? I mean, the kid says "add your energy", but what does that mean? There's nothing special about Shepard's "energy". I assume it's talking about genetics, DNA, something like that. Why wouldn't it be enough to throw a little blood in there? Why would the highly advanced energy .. beam need all of Shepard for his DNA, when it's all contained in each cell of our body?
It just makes no scientific sense.
#63
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 11:49
Kloborgg711
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Fjordgnu wrote...
Something just occurred to me about the synergy ending.
Why would Shepard have to leap into the energy beam? I mean, the kid says "add your energy", but what does that mean? There's nothing special about Shepard's "energy". I assume it's talking about genetics, DNA, something like that. Why wouldn't it be enough to throw a little blood in there? Why would the highly advanced energy .. beam need all of Shepard for his DNA, when it's all contained in each cell of our body?
It just makes no scientific sense.
That entire option doesn't even try to keep itself plausible.
"OK Shepard, here's the idea. There's this awesome third option I thought of. The ultimate evolution is when synthetics and organics combine. Why? I said so. After all, Saren was doing great! Anyways, you may think it would ridiculous to expect robots and organics to suddenly just.. morph together, right? I mean, how would it even work? Would they fuse? Would organics sprout wires and circuits while synthetics grow testicles and eggs? How would reproduction even work? Ridiculous! But here's the great part: all of this can happen instantly and painlessly, just by releasing a certain type of radiation throughout the galaxy. I know you probably think this is impossible, but believe me it's entirely scientifically accurate.
Oh, but there's a magic ingredient here. I already added sugar and spice, so now I just need you to jump in to your death. No, I don't need your DNA, I don't need your flesh sample, I literally need you to disintegrate. After all, without a single human sacrifice, this magi--- scientific transformative laser treatment just wouldn't work. Because you're special... and stuff."
And we're supposed to eat this up without question. Great.
Modifié par Kloborgg711, 10 mars 2012 - 11:50 .
#64
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 11:53
suusuuu
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There is no reconstruction because of the Mass Relay explosions. The only survivors are ones that didn't have a mass relay in their system and the normandy crew.
#65
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 11:55
ChaosMarky
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I would have prefered an ending similar to dragon age origins: a group of text written endings that tells us what happens to the rest of the galaxy after!
The ending CGs and cutscenes were great but.... If ME3 is going to be the last of the series then we need a proper closure. No need for fancy CGs or whatnot, just a couple of text written endings that tells us what happens to the rest of the galaxy after the war. I think having this would be enough to grant us closure. It would be nice to know what happens to the quarians and geth after all our decisions. Or what happens to the krogans and their "new empire" after being free of the genophage (or their extiction). Heck, i wanna know what happens to my squadmates after my "sacrifice"!
Please conisder Devs. I wouldn't demand you guys to re-create an entirely new CG ending to a game. But making a DLC that enables this DAO text-ending feature should be easier AND enough for most of us.
Also, I think the normandy crash scene in the end is [indeed] confusing and posts too many "what-if" questions that mitigates the impact of a "closure".
The ending CGs and cutscenes were great but.... If ME3 is going to be the last of the series then we need a proper closure. No need for fancy CGs or whatnot, just a couple of text written endings that tells us what happens to the rest of the galaxy after the war. I think having this would be enough to grant us closure. It would be nice to know what happens to the quarians and geth after all our decisions. Or what happens to the krogans and their "new empire" after being free of the genophage (or their extiction). Heck, i wanna know what happens to my squadmates after my "sacrifice"!
Please conisder Devs. I wouldn't demand you guys to re-create an entirely new CG ending to a game. But making a DLC that enables this DAO text-ending feature should be easier AND enough for most of us.
Also, I think the normandy crash scene in the end is [indeed] confusing and posts too many "what-if" questions that mitigates the impact of a "closure".
#66
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 11:57
suusuuu
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If this ending is true, there is no krogans left. They had a mass relay in their system.ChaosMarky wrote...
I would have prefered an ending similar to dragon age origins: a group of text written endings that tells us what happens to the rest of the galaxy after!
The ending CGs and cutscenes were great but.... If ME3 is going to be the last of the series then we need a proper closure. No need for fancy CGs or whatnot, just a couple of text written endings that tells us what happens to the rest of the galaxy after the war. I think having this would be enough to grant us closure. It would be nice to know what happens to the quarians and geth after all our decisions. Or what happens to the krogans and their "new empire" after being free of the genophage (or their extiction). Heck, i wanna know what happens to my squadmates after my "sacrifice"!
#67
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 12:17
Jynx161
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"OK Shepard, here's the idea. There's this awesome third option I thought of. The ultimate evolution is when synthetics and organics combine. Why? I said so. After all, Saren was doing great! Anyways, you may think it would ridiculous to expect robots and organics to suddenly just.. morph together, right? I mean, how would it even work? Would they fuse? Would organics sprout wires and circuits while synthetics grow testicles and eggs? How would reproduction even work? Ridiculous! But here's the great part: all of this can happen instantly and painlessly, just by releasing a certain type of radiation throughout the galaxy. I know you probably think this is impossible, but believe me it's entirely scientifically accurate.
Oh, but there's a magic ingredient here. I already added sugar and spice, so now I just need you to jump in to your death. No, I don't need your DNA, I don't need your flesh sample, I literally need you to disintegrate. After all, without a single human sacrifice, this magi--- scientific transformative laser treatment just wouldn't work. Because you're special... and stuff."
And we're supposed to eat this up without question. Great.
You just made my day.
#68
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 12:20
The Spamming Troll
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Archereon wrote...
^^ There's at least one ending in which Shepard and co live.
I think.
You see the apparently vaporized squadmate popping out of the wreckage of the Normandy. Then in the post credit bit, you see Shepard's armor twitching.
You could also just order the Reapers to fly into a black hole in the event of your death/immediately. Problem solved.
i just got this ending like 5 minutes ago on my first playthrough. so it cant be just NG+.
i did a ton of **** though, everything possible in ME1 and ME2, 95% readiness, 6000ish EMS score.
......honeslty, im not sure what everyones complainings about with the neding. i whiped out the reapers and saved the galaxy. maybe the mass realays cna be rebuilt, project lazerous style!
Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 11 mars 2012 - 12:20 .
#69
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 12:53
segfaulthunter
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Pretty much what OP said, save that I think destroying the Mass Relays was a horrible idea. I've been playing all three games considering how I want the galaxy to look after the Reapers have been defeated, and it ends up with the whole prerequisite of space travel (I suppose communication would still work, though?) being thrown away; also, what are all the ships in the Sol relay supposed to do, now that they cannot possibly return?
#70
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 03:30
soundwave145
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bioware has to know they ****ed up, we are still all talking about this DX
#71
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 03:41
Cutter10
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Sorry OP - you're trying to rationalize really bad writing. The fact is that it doesn't make sense on a number of levels. Here are a few of them:
-The Reapers are said to be "The Solution", to the inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics. That's right - in order to prevent this "inevitable" conflict, Reapers will kill everyone, everywhere over and over. Problem solved?
-The idea that synthetics and organics are "destined" to fight not only destroys the concept of free will that is contained within the rest of the Mass Effect story - it is outright contradicted by the fact that the Quarians and Geth can make peace, all move home, and be happy.
-"Evolutionary Destiny" is a nonsense term, made up by people who do not understand even the tiniest part of evolution. To say nothing of the fact that an energy wave that could "fuse organics and synthetics" is laughable on so many levels.
-The three options presented in the finale are ridiculous. Not because Shepard has to die, or because the Relays might be destroyed - but because even within the rules of this science fiction universe, they make no sense. The character of Shepard is utterly shattered, and made such a clown they might as well have cut to black and played a dancing hamster for ten minutes.
-The Reapers are said to be "The Solution", to the inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics. That's right - in order to prevent this "inevitable" conflict, Reapers will kill everyone, everywhere over and over. Problem solved?
-The idea that synthetics and organics are "destined" to fight not only destroys the concept of free will that is contained within the rest of the Mass Effect story - it is outright contradicted by the fact that the Quarians and Geth can make peace, all move home, and be happy.
-"Evolutionary Destiny" is a nonsense term, made up by people who do not understand even the tiniest part of evolution. To say nothing of the fact that an energy wave that could "fuse organics and synthetics" is laughable on so many levels.
-The three options presented in the finale are ridiculous. Not because Shepard has to die, or because the Relays might be destroyed - but because even within the rules of this science fiction universe, they make no sense. The character of Shepard is utterly shattered, and made such a clown they might as well have cut to black and played a dancing hamster for ten minutes.
#72
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 03:57
Karathossen
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I'm gonna have to agree with Cutter10 here. The endings do make sense, if a bit wonky sense, up to a point - but there's only so many holes you can poke in a tapestry before it starts feeling like a net.
There's one query at the forefront of my confusion. This Catalyst-being uses his Reapers to destroy all advanced organic life in the galaxy, in order to prevent these races from being wiped out by their own synthetic creations.
So basically whatever the galaxy does, some flavour of synthetics will wipe them out apparently?
Yet, the simple feat of Shepard reaching the Catalyst-being makes him/it willing to stop the extinction cycle and begin anew? So all it took was one gesture of change for the Catalyst to call off extinctions that had been repeated over and over for millenia? Wasn't the gesture that the Geth made peace with their creators enough to convince synthetics might be able to coexist with their creators in this cycle?
It just doesn't add up. Together with the bewildering Normandy crash-landing with my last-mission squad members aboard just raises the overall confusion to frustration-levels.
There's one query at the forefront of my confusion. This Catalyst-being uses his Reapers to destroy all advanced organic life in the galaxy, in order to prevent these races from being wiped out by their own synthetic creations.
So basically whatever the galaxy does, some flavour of synthetics will wipe them out apparently?
Yet, the simple feat of Shepard reaching the Catalyst-being makes him/it willing to stop the extinction cycle and begin anew? So all it took was one gesture of change for the Catalyst to call off extinctions that had been repeated over and over for millenia? Wasn't the gesture that the Geth made peace with their creators enough to convince synthetics might be able to coexist with their creators in this cycle?
It just doesn't add up. Together with the bewildering Normandy crash-landing with my last-mission squad members aboard just raises the overall confusion to frustration-levels.
#73
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 04:09
jabajack
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I agree with the OP the three choices are fine, what i have a problem with was the Normandy and the Mass Relays.
For the Normandy,
My two squad mates who charged with me are unscathed and i would have assumed the LI would have gone after you into the Citadel.
Why are they fleeing, is Earth and all the others fleets destroyed?
For the Relays,
We told about if the exploding relays will wipe out the systems they are in, would this explain the fleeing Normandy?
The effects on the galaxy as a whole, what happens to all the homeworlds etc
For the Normandy,
My two squad mates who charged with me are unscathed and i would have assumed the LI would have gone after you into the Citadel.
Why are they fleeing, is Earth and all the others fleets destroyed?
For the Relays,
We told about if the exploding relays will wipe out the systems they are in, would this explain the fleeing Normandy?
The effects on the galaxy as a whole, what happens to all the homeworlds etc
#74
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 04:41
Terminus Echoes
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This is absolutely true. Hopefully someone at BioWare reads this.
#75
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 07:19
Ariaya
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After reading through the thread, I still think that the whole crucible/catalyst plotline is extremely flawed. I don't think it's clever, deep, or philosophically illuminating. If the Reapers represent "order" they seem to bring about an awful lot of chaotic death and destruction. Another issue is that in this cycle there has been progress made between the coexistence of man and machine (EDI's development, peace between Geth and quarians, etc.) The Reapers coming in to destroy everything seems like a huge backward step--especially if their goal is to ultimately preserve organic life through the evolutionary process of the cycle (which is why the harvesting of the genetic matter happens so that there is some growth from cycle to cycle.)
So these "wise" beings that created the whole test do not seem very wise to me. I said it in another post and I'll say it again--if this is the order of the cosmos it's not the kind of universe that I would want to live in. Not that Shepard or anyone would have any choice in the matter. If the AI star-child god that is full of contradictions is the best that the universe has to offer, we're in an awful lot of trouble.
Furthermore, the whole choice/ test (whatever you want to call it) is a construct made up by whoever created the Reapers (still not entirely clear to me; maybe someone can enlighten me.) So in the end it's not much of a choice at all; it's merely the illusion of choice.
The whole thing gives me a massive headache. Yes, pun intended.
So these "wise" beings that created the whole test do not seem very wise to me. I said it in another post and I'll say it again--if this is the order of the cosmos it's not the kind of universe that I would want to live in. Not that Shepard or anyone would have any choice in the matter. If the AI star-child god that is full of contradictions is the best that the universe has to offer, we're in an awful lot of trouble.
Furthermore, the whole choice/ test (whatever you want to call it) is a construct made up by whoever created the Reapers (still not entirely clear to me; maybe someone can enlighten me.) So in the end it's not much of a choice at all; it's merely the illusion of choice.
The whole thing gives me a massive headache. Yes, pun intended.
