113 réponses à ce sujet

[malakim2099]

Shunt Mcblunt wrote...

Does anyone remember looking at the ME2 logs about the people who were in the Reaper. They became confused and memories would jumble together and they would have weird dreams not getting much sleep.

Have you figured it out yet????

Nah, Shepard wasn't indoctrinated. Just because she was having nightmares due to the Reapers destroying everything doesn't mean she was a Reaper puppet (and she didn't have memory issues).

OP raises some interesting points, but frankly, I don't think I'm buying another bioware game at this point... and if I could, I'd sell my copy. Seriously, this ending (I had the "kill Reapers - Shepard lives?" ending) is what I played 80+ hours of a trilogy for? THIS?!?

Look, I don't ask for much, but at least give us the possibility of just a nice quiet life until the next galactic crisis rises up, okay? You emulated Star Trek/Stargate to this point... can't we just follow through for the finish? 

[zotanas]

I have been mulling over the endings since I finished the game a few days ago, and this is the first source I have found to be useful in trying to make my own decision. Your excellent summary should be commended, and I appreciate what I am sure was a considerable amount of time taken to write it.

I still don't know what to think about the endings, and I believe the crash scene is the reason why, and I'm glad you brought it into focus. You are right, and I will add my own cynical view: It was a tacky way to pervert the ending into a billboard, one that literally ends in a pop-up add. It was so terribly executed that it will most likely become one of the most vilified tragedies in modern gaming. I agree completely with everything you have discussed regarding why those scenes end in such anxiety.

That said, I can also agree there is good to be found.  I feel that the issue is scope. Mass Effect as a series redefined NPC party members, and interactions with characters that were meant to tug at emotions throughout the series. Actors were pulled in to lend voices, to breathe life into animations and create characters that will be remembered. You are intimately plunged into relationships, wars, and triumphs for 100+ hours, spanning three separate games.

Then, the lens pulls away at t-minus 15 minutes.

Away from each party member - as they are now immediately irrelevant in the scope of your decisions - so far out you are now looking at the galaxy through a lens. 

Life is separated in terms of origin, and you are asked to make decisions so broad in scope that in relative terms the prior interactions, laughs, regrets, and all other emotions are invisible at a sub-atomic scale. They are muted in a galaxy-consuming revelation.

So profound are your choices that no where can any relevancy be placed on a single moment of your prior actions. Your journey is now over, and the enormity of choice has obliterated the memories of the past. 

This jarring shift in scope, while worthy in concept is just too quickly applied. The rush of ideas, many of which must be carefully disseminated are just too much to handle in the short time the cut scenes play for. I am sure there are many who commend this approach to an ending - one so staggering it demands review.  Unfortunately, while I believe this ending in particular carries the weight of a profound meaning, it has absolutely failed in execution.

The lens never refocuses at the familiar level players are rightfully aching for it to do, the one they have spent their past 30 hours looking through.
 

Modifié par zotanas, 12 mars 2012 - 10:17 .

[granyte]

Joker what the hell were you doing out side the Sol system and my ride fo the citadel you bastard?

remember the last time i jumped into a beam to save you all? ya and a good turian friend of us said the only thing it did is ****** me off

[p.W]

SomeBug wrote...

So they create a test. A test for both organics and synthetics, for the entire galaxy. This test is called the Catalyst,
and its purpose is to ensure that all life has a place in the galaxy and that it has evolved to the point where it can co-exist peacefully.

I think you're imagining cohesion where there is none. The Catalyst's reaction to Shepard showing up is completely off for it to have been a test. The Catalyst doesn't say "Wow! I'm surprised someone finally made it! Your species must be really advanced!" - he says "My solution isn't working anymore. We'll have to find a new one." That doesn't sound anything like a passed test to me.

You need the Turians, the Salarians. You need the Quarians and the Geth. The little fragments of technology from the Protheans, the Terminus pirates and the all of the scattered human soldiers.  Specialists from as many races as possible must be used or you will not achieve a high enough war assets score. You will not pass the Catalyst test because the galaxy must be united for it to defeat the Reapers. This is their purpose, this is why
they were created so long ago.

I "passed the Catalyst" without the Salarians, and by (accidentally) letting the Geth destroy the Quarians, disproving the great unity theory pretty much completely.

So, unfortunately, I deny your assertion that "everything up to" the Normandy ending has cohesion and a great philosophical point.

[jcmccorm]

1. I want answers about the reapers and, if needed, who created the reapers and why. I have no idea who the star child is, its background, motivations, etc.

2. I want a dialog tree to explore it. And any choices I must make. I know more about EDI's origin than I do the options which I will choose from that will impact the entire galaxy.

3. I want Commander Shepard to stay true to character and fight -- not roll over and play dead. An unexpected list of three options from an unexpected character, and he's ready to give in, without question. That's not Shepard.

4. I want an ending which is consistent with the story up until that point.

5. I want an ending that respects what I've accomplished in the game.

6. I want a reasonable explanation why a decision must be made at that very moment. God Child controls the reapers. You'd think we'd want to pull in a few more people for opinions, new ideas. The God Child has already proven he isn't that great at making solutions.

7. I want an ending which explains what happens afterwards.

8. I want to know why my medigel no longer available.

9. I prefer an ending that doesn't involve a different color on the same cut scenes. That's cheap.

The entire game sold me on the Mass Effect universe and I was totally primed to invest myself in it further. The ending not only failed to continue that, it actively sabotaged all the emotional investment that was created up until that point. I really don't want to play this game franchise anymore. You unsold and actually poisoned 99% of the game in the last few minutes. The ending has to MAINTAIN my emotional investment. Not just for me, but for you, if you want to preserve a player's motivation to buy more Mass Effect DLC/merchandise/etc.

[aMytallica]

Some interesting theories. To be honest, I loved the mystery of the reapers. An uknown threat that just completely transcended understanding. The speech given by Sovereign on Virmire, was enough of an explanation for me. Do we need to know everything? I think this made them more frightening. They come, they harvest the most advanced organics of each cycle to consume them and make more reapers, then move on and wait for the next organics to rise up. They're just the worst kind of horror.

Having their actions explained, that the reapers are actually controlled to save the galaxy from itself... I dunno. It doesn't make much sense to me. If that is the case, to just create order from chaos, why the horror and brutality of it? Why the indoctrination? Why the husks? It doesn't seem right to explain it all away in this way. I dunno. It seems to raise more questions then anything presented in the series so far.

Maybe it just felt over-explained (and yet so vague) to me. Not to mention a lack of closure. Where is the Normandy? Shouldn't they still have been around Earth, if the Earth was saved? Where's the other ships? The other races? I'm confused. That's the biggest thing, the most upsetting.

I think I know what happened. I can find some logic in it and reach some understanding. But its just so vague... and more then a little depressing. You don't feel rewarded for all your effort. I'm having a hard time working myself up to another playthrough at the moment. The end is too upsetting.

[balance5050]

Indoctrination theory?

[balance5050]

Yeah... indoctrination theory.

[evan365]

Hve to say you cleared some things up for me, Thanks! I'd agree with you for the most part the ending was good but it felt a bit too gloomy. I mean we just devoted about 100 hours to save the galaxy, then the catalyst ai says well that was a mistake synthetis will destroy organics anyway. also definately needed more closure an the squadmates. didnt really agree with blowin up the mass relays, you just got rewarded for stopping the reapers by co operation between all organics and synthetics, then you cut off their main means of communication and transportaation around the galaxy

[Asnine112]

This would be a great explanation for the ending.

However, the way in which the ending was implemented in no way explains any of it. Much like the indoc theory, you have to infer it....

[FinalEffect 2506]

Ahms wrote...

Just something to clear up. The kid on Earth was real. The Catalyst simply used Shepard's memories of the kid to present himself as something familiar in his psyche (remember the dreams).

And yes, the endings were poorly executed. Endings are supposed to give closure. The endings only brought about more unanswered questions and left things gapingly open.

There's only one problem with that concept though. In the Geth concensus Legion tells Shepard that his mind made "sense" of the Geth's world. But that was in a virtual reality, and Legion had to help Shepard make sense of it (even going as far as to appear as he normally would in reality and gave Shep a weapon to destroy Reaper code). It seems inconceivable that the Catalyst AI just randomly choose a kid to be it's avatar (in the real world no less). Wouldn't it have made more sense to Shepard if the kid appeared as the race that made the AI specifically? I mean, sure, the kid is integral to Shepard's guilt and feelings of loss. But, in all honesty, how did the AI figure this out in the whole 5 seconds that Shepard meets the kid and the whole 2 seconds where he mentions him to another crewmate.

Indoctrinated Saren also dismisses this, "Are we allowing dreams into evidence now? How can I defend myself with this kind of testimony?"

Modifié par FinalEffect 2506, 25 mars 2012 - 01:25 .

[FinalEffect 2506]

It's ironic. But you could justify why the Citadel AI didn't unleash the Reapers in ME. The timely arrival of humanity threw a ****** in an otherwise perfect plan. Perhaps out of curiosity the AI shifted Harbinger's priorities to study humanity. Still, it doesn't rationalize why it didn't try to aid Harbinger in this process. Shutting down the relays (and only activating pairs for the Collectors to pass through) would've made the process exponentially simple for Harbinger (even though he did a decent job by himself). In addition, it would've thrown the organics into chaos, and would've made the subsequent reaping all the more simple.

However, there is another problem with the original poster's theory on the crucible. The Prothean VI clearly states that the Crucible was a construction that was improved by previous cycles (for who knows how long). So, wait, does that mean that the original race (as inferred) only gave the next (2nd) cycle  plans for an incomplete device? How does that accomplish anything aside from protract a bloody reoccurance that happens for several tens (if not hundreds or thousands) of cycles? Also, it throws out the possibility that there were other heroes like Shepard who did, in fact, unite their respective cycles. Aside from the Protheans, who were clearly not united when the Reapers came, what about cycles before their own? Could you imagine a previous cycle that united it's respective races, only to fail just because the Crucible amounted to be an incomplete bombshell of a scheme (insert C-AI trollface)? How does this plan help any party at all? Aside from the Reapers of course.

Not only that, at the end of ME3 the C-AI basically admits that it didn't know that the Crucible could change him/it, "The Crucible changed me, created new possbilities...". And if he did know that the Crucible could change its functions when joined with the Catalyst. Why doesn't he present this idea to the previous cycles (provided that the original poster's theory is correct)? Ya know, if to spare the billions of lives lost to Reaper harvests. Again (insert C-AI trollface), an oversight or just unncessary limbo?

I still like Drew's original version. If anything the Crucible could amount to being a galaxy destroying device (which is what the Reapers (in that version) sought to prevent). At the very least, it would fall in line with the established canon.

Modifié par FinalEffect 2506, 25 mars 2012 - 12:57 .

[asdfsdadfs]

HooblaDGN wrote...

I would rather have a broader variety of endings. Keep the original endings in, sure, but also add in some ending where Star Child isn't even there, and the Crucible is actually a weapon that destroys reapers and saves the galaxy, or an ending where we fail completely, but find some solace in preparing knowledge for future cycles, etc.

Read my signature. What's described there is not what we have right now. What we have is three colors to choose between that NOTHING I have done can BROADLY change. Relays gone, crew stranded. Variables are possibly living (though, unless illusion theory is true, you've destroyed EDI and the geth), Citadel possibly alive, Earth possibly not destroyed (though in a universe with no relays). And then the three different colors. No matter what I've done, my only choice is to obey this deus ex machina abomination who thought the reapers were a dandy solution.

And THEN there's still the issues of closure and catharsis to deal with.

Anyone who had the highest possible EMS should have gotten an ending where the Crucible is not a space magic generator, but rather a GUN THAT FIRES THRESHER MAWS!  I can imagine the scientists looking at the blueprints: let's see here....hieroglyphs.....metal + color + ....is that a thresher maw?   

[SAS_CAPTAIN_SOAP]

This is pretty old but I'll post anyway
I support the Indoctrination Theory, well parts of it anyway.
I see the decision being made a test that Shepard must face
If he choses to control the Reapers they go back into dark space and the relays are destroyed. This to me seems like the Reapers have still won, they can come back
Merging all life essentially makes everyone a Reaper - an advanced Synthetic with organic qualities
Destroying to me is the paragon choice, while it may seem renegade (coloured red, the god-child stating how its bad) remember that the God-child is Reaper in origin and would want to see if this cycle truly is great enough to stop the cycle.

Anyway the endings were bad, really bad but I have a feeling that the Citadel scene was fought in Shepards head