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[MetioricTest]

Forst1999 wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

Well as long as he realized he did nothing retrospectively and not while he was murdering people, it's all okay.

I suppose if Pitne For retrospectively regretted screwing over the Eclipse he would be fine and dandy right?

That wasn't my point at all. Just saying that failing at something doesn't invalidate the intention. We weren't talking about specific actions being a good idea, but about people being good or bad. So intention does matter.
The actual thing is that I think that killing people to protect people is better than killing people to enrich yourself. Your refusal to acknowledge this means that we either disagree too much and are going nowhere, or that you're messing with me. Either way, goodbye.

I'd take actions over intentions anyday.

Garrus may have had the best intentions in the world but he murdered by the hundreds.

Saren's intentions were good, he wanted to save trillions of lives and spare suffering.

Jack's intentions are bad or non-existant in ME2. But her actions are immensely important.

Hate to steal from Hollywood of all places but "It's not what you are underneath, but what you do, that defines you."

[Argolas]

Wulfram wrote...

Argolas wrote...

maurice tali zorah wrote...

All Quarians are awesome!

Ehem... Xen?

Xen is pretty awesome.  Crazy and maybe evil, but still awesome

okay.

[Han Shot First]

It depends on whether we are talking about the species as a whole, or just its leaders.I wouldn't call the Quarians as a whole 'douche bags,' though they do seem to be one of the weakest species militarily.

The Quarian Admirals, with the exception of Admiral Koris, were a bunch of incompetent warmongers. The Quarians were on their way to losing another war to the Geth until Shepard shows up.

[MetioricTest]

Han Shot First wrote...

It depends on whether we are talking about the species as a whole, or just its leaders.I wouldn't call the Quarians as a whole 'douche bags,' though they do seem to be one of the weakest species militarily.

The Quarian Admirals, with the exception of Admiral Koris, were a bunch of incompetent warmongers. The Quarians were on their way to losing another war to the Geth until Shepard shows up.

This is really unfair.

The "incompotent warmongers" have 3 choices:

1. Die.
2. Try to conolizie a new planet... And probably die in the attempt.
3. Retake Rannoch.

And they were winning the war, with ease, until the Reapers turned up. No Reapers = Quarians would have dominated (Which is quite funny considering what the Catalyst says at the end)

So put yourself in their shoes, those are your choices, and due to Xen beating the Geth is now really really easy and Rannoch could be yours within a week.

What choice do you make? Die?

[Han Shot First]

The Quarians weren't in the process of winning that war, they were in the process of losing it. Without the intervention of Shepard and the disabling of the Reaper upgrades, the Geth fleet decisively defeats the Migrant Fleet and the attempt to retake Rannoch ends in disaster. The Quarian Admirals underestimated their enemy's ability to 'adapt' and improvise. They forgot perhaps the most important of Murphy's Laws. "No plan ever survives contact with the enemy."

The Quarian Admirals are incompetent because they provoked a war that could have destroyed them if not for outside intervention, and because they did it at precisely the worst possible time. They go to war with the Geth while the Reapers are invading and conquering the rest of the galaxy.

As for the Quarian choices, colonizing a new planet was their best option. They were also in no imminent danger of being destroyed prior to warring with the Geth. After all they had already survived for three centuries on the Migrant Fleet. Where they flirted with destruction is when they provoked a war with the Geth that they nearly lost.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 08 avril 2013 - 03:31 .

[MetioricTest]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Quarians weren't in the process of winning that war, they were in the process of losing it. Without the intervention of Shepard and the disabling of the Reaper upgrades, the Geth fleet decisively defeats the Migrant Fleet and attempt to retake Rannoch ends in disaster.

I can't believe you just said this without irony. "intervention of Shepard and the disabling of the Reaper upgrades," Reaper upgrades were an intervention too.

An Intervention the Geth fled to because they were being decimated. If there no Reapers then the Quarians would have dominated.

And then Shepard's intervention counter-acts the Reapers. And once that's done, Quarians dominate again unless Shepard intervenes AGAIN to save them.

The Quarian Admirals are incompetent because they provoked a war that could have destroyed them if not for outside intervention, and because they did it at precisely the worst possible time. They go to war with the Geth while the Reapers are invading and conquering the rest of the galaxy.

Again. Reaper threat means little to the Quarians because they were going to die anyway. Without Rannoch anda  future there's little reason for them to care about the Reapers.

And they provoked a war that were winning easily and would have won easily, if not for outside intervention. Why are you holding Shepard against the Quarians but not the Reapers against the Geth?

As for the Quarian choices, colonizing a new planet was their best option. They were also in no imminent danger of being destroyed prior to warring with the Geth. After all they had already survived for three centuries on the Migrant Fleet. Where they flirted with destruction is when they provoked a war with the Geth that they nearly lost.

The Quarian fleet will not last another 70 years before it is unsustainable. And this will be made even lower if the Reapers start to decemate their fleet. They need a new planet to live on and they need it fast.

Colonizing a whole new planet will take decades, may well kill them away, and would cause all kinds of problems with whomever's space they intercede into.

Now keep in mind at the same time, Rannoch is right there, open for the picking and the Geth have been crippled. Why would the admirals or the people in general say "Well, let's ignore our home and risk colonization?"

It's a poor choice

[kathic]

"I pity the Quarians. They're like us if we fail."

[Han Shot First]

MetioricTest wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The Quarians weren't in the process of winning that war, they were in the process of losing it. Without the intervention of Shepard and the disabling of the Reaper upgrades, the Geth fleet decisively defeats the Migrant Fleet and attempt to retake Rannoch ends in disaster.

I can't believe you just said this without irony. "intervention of Shepard and the disabling of the Reaper upgrades," Reaper upgrades were an intervention too.

An Intervention the Geth fled to because they were being decimated. If there no Reapers then the Quarians would have dominated.

And then Shepard's intervention counter-acts the Reapers. And once that's done, Quarians dominate again unless Shepard intervenes AGAIN to save them.

Germany's plan for winning the First World War when faced with a two front war with France and Russia, was to first sweep into France by conquering neutral Belgium. Once France had been dealt with its armies would turn East and deal with Russia.

One of the problems with this plan however was that it depends on the war remaining one against France and Russia. What happened is that the unprovoked attack on neutral Belgium causes the British to intervene and join the war as an ally of France and Russia.

The Quarian plan failed for similar reasons. They didn't consider that the Geth might once again ally with the Reapers, which is mind-boggingly foolish when you consider that elements of the Geth had allied with the Reapers just three years before, and that the Reapers were now in the Milky Way actively warring with every organic species they encounter.

The Quarian Admiralty had committed the worst 'sin' of any military commander: underestimating your enemy. That the entire Quarian war plan hinged on the success of Xen's countermeasures, and that the Quarians did not anctipate that the Geth might find a way to counter them, represented both a fatal hubris and lack of strategic foresight.

MetioricTest wrote...

Again. Reaper threat means little to the Quarians because they were going to die anyway. Without Rannoch anda  future there's little reason for them to care about the Reapers.

A false assumption.

The Quarian species had survived for 3 centuries on the Migrant Fleet. Other than the Reapers, what had changed that threatened the Quarians with imminent extinction? And if the Reapers are that threat, why were the Quarians creating a costly distraction from the real threat by warring with the Geth?

MetioricTest wrote...

And they provoked a war that were winning easily and would have won easily, if not for outside intervention. Why are you holding Shepard against the Quarians but not the Reapers against the Geth?

The difference between the two is that the Quarians initiated the conflict. They began a war they would have lost without intervention by Shepard and Legion. While the Geth *may* have lost without Reaper intervention, they did not begin the conflict.

Hence it is the Quarian Admirals, and not the Geth, who come across as being criminally incompetent.

MetioricTest wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

As for the Quarian choices, colonizing a new planet was their best option. They were also in no imminent danger of being destroyed prior to warring with the Geth. After all they had already survived for three centuries on the Migrant Fleet. Where they flirted with destruction is when they provoked a war with the Geth that they nearly lost.

The Quarian fleet will not last another 70 years before it is unsustainable. And this will be made even lower if the Reapers start to decemate their fleet. They need a new planet to live on and they need it fast.

Colonizing a whole new planet will take decades, may well kill them away, and would cause all kinds of problems with whomever's space they intercede into.

Now keep in mind at the same time, Rannoch is right there, open for the picking and the Geth have been crippled. Why would the admirals or the people in general say "Well, let's ignore our home and risk colonization?"

It's a poor choice

Where did that 70 years figure come from? Is that stated in the game at some point?

At any rate if the Quarians still had 70 years it makes their plan to invade Rannoch even more foolish, when the Reapers were a far more immediate threat. Even if they had succeeded in taking Rannoch, the Reapers would have shortly wiped it clean of Quarian life. The quest for a homeworld just should have been put on hold until after the Reaper War had concluded.

As for as Quarian options go, colonizing a new world is a smarter plan than trying to take Rannoch by force. In fact had Shepard not intervened, the attempt to take Rannoch by force may have ended with Quarian extinction.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 08 avril 2013 - 04:55 .

[MetioricTest]

Han Shot First wrote...


Germany's plan for winning the First World War when faced with a wo front war with France and Russia, was to first sweep into France by conquering neutral Belgium. Once France had been dealt with its armies
would turn East and deal with Russia.

Look up Godwins law.
 

The Quarian plan failed for similar  reasons. They didn't consider that the Geth might once again ally with
the Reapers, which is mind-boggingly foolish when you consider that  elements of the Geth had allied with the Reapers just three years  before, and that the Reapers were now in the Milky Way actively warring with every organic species they encounter.

The Quarian  Admiralty had committed the worst 'sin' of any military commander:  underestimating your enemy. That the entire Quarian war plan hinged on  the success of Xen's countermeasures, and that the Quarians did not
anctipate that the Geth might find a way to counter  them, represented both a fatal hubris and lack of strategic foresight.

You've switched horses. Moments ago you were hating on the  Quarians for relying on outside help. Now you're hating on them for not  predicting the Geth would get outside help.

And it's not as bizarre as you make it sound like. Xen made the Geth weak. They didn't underestimate the Geth, they just didn't expect the Reapers.  And considering the fact all the Geth who supported the Reapers are dead or rewritten, and all that remain are jibbering idiots it was not a bad decision to proceed.

"Don't attack because who knows what immensely powerful aliens may fall from the sky and magically make our enemies Godlike" is terrible military logic.  If you had been in charge of the Quarians you would have got them all killed.

When you play as Shepard to do you fight mercs or do you stay in cover in case random powerful races happen to drop in and destroy you for fighting a fight you can clearly win?

A false assumption.

The Quarian species had survived for 3  centuries on the Migrant Fleet. Other than the Reapers, what had changed that threatened the Quarians with imminent extinction? And if the  Reapers are that threat, why were the Quarians creating a costly  distraction from the real threat by warring with the Geth?

No it's a real inlore canon fact.  What changed? You said it yourself, they've been in space for 3 centuries. Their ships are falling apart, their liveships are barely working. They have less than 70 years before the Floatia becomes unsustainable and they all (or at least nearly all) die.  They HAVE to either get Rannoch or colonize a planet now. This is why men like Gerrel and Tali's dad are so desperate.

Even if the best case scenario occured: Quarians ignored Rannoch, joined the fight against the Reapers and then combined we  beat the Reapers: The damage to the Floatia would render the Quarians doomed and they would die out anyway.

This is why Rannoch is a bigger priority to the fleet than defeating the Reapers.

The difference between the two is that the Quarians initiated
the conflict. They began a war they would have lost without intervention
by Shepard and Legion. While the Geth *may* have lost without Reaper
intervention, they did not begin the conflict.

Hence it is the Quarian Admirals, and not the Geth, who come across as being criminally incompetent.

How does that make anysense.  The Quarians are incompetent because they were completely winning until outside influence and then afterr outside influence used outside influence of their own to win anyway? 

That's both circular and self-defeating. Sure the Quarians "Started it" but they're not incompotent because the Geth got help and they are certainly not incompotent because they complerely counteracted the help.

And there's no "may" about it. The Quarians were absolutely dominating with ease, and do so again unless you purposefully save the Geth. 

Where did that 70 years figure come from? Is that stated in the game at some point?

The second novel Ascenion goes into it. And once you understand that suddenly the actions and personalities of the Quarian Admirals in ME2 and ME3 suddenly make complete sense. As well as their general "who cares?" attitude towards the Reapers despite completely believing Shepard.

Why they didn't put this in direct dialogue in the foreground has always been a mystery to me since it's very important to the Quarian story ark.

At
any rate if the Quarians still had 70 years it makes their plan to  invade Rannoch even more foolish, when the Reapers were a far more  immediate threat. Even if they had succeeded in taking Rannoch, the
Reapers would have shortly wiped it clean of Quarian life. The quest for a homeworld just should have been put on hold until after the Reaper  War had concluded.

Reaper attacks the fleet and wins: Quarians die.
Reaper attacks the fleet and the fleet win: Quarians die.
Reaper attacks Rannoch and wins: Quarians die.
Reaper attacks Rannoch and the fleet win: Quarians live.

You're not thinking about this from the Quarians perspective. The Quarians can't just "Put Rannoch on hold and go fight the Reapers." when they are literally flying their homes, children and resources into battle. In a fleet which is already falling apart.

Even if The Reapers only destroyed half the fleet, that would still mark the end of the Quarians without Rannoch.

And even if the Reapers somehow failed to destroy any small ships, if they successfully take down even 1 liveship they have crippled the Quarians.

As for as Quarian options go, colonizing a new world is a smarter plan than trying to take Rannoch by force. In fact  had Shepard not intervened, the attempt to take Rannoch by force may  have ended with Quarian extinction.

You're going in circles AND attempting to colonize a new world may have ended with Quarian extinction, or at least utterly crippled them.

Modifié par MetioricTest, 09 avril 2013 - 12:14 .

[Jukaga]

Edolix wrote...

Isn't there a great big 150+ page thread for this sort of discussion?

Mega-threads are black holes of opinions and responses. I've never understood forumites who complain about new threads opening up. It lets new people into the discussions. It's not like bandwidth is an issue or anything.

[Han Shot First]

MetioricTest wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Germany's plan for winning the First World War when faced with a wo front war with France and Russia, was to first sweep into France by conquering neutral Belgium. Once France had been dealt with its armies
would turn East and deal with Russia.

Look up Godwins law. 

Wrong war.

MetioricTest wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
 
The Quarian plan failed for similar  reasons. They didn't consider that the Geth might once again ally with
the Reapers, which is mind-boggingly foolish when you consider that  elements of the Geth had allied with the Reapers just three years  before, and that the Reapers were now in the Milky Way actively warring with every organic species they encounter.

The Quarian  Admiralty had committed the worst 'sin' of any military commander:  underestimating your enemy. That the entire Quarian war plan hinged on  the success of Xen's countermeasures, and that the Quarians did not
anctipate that the Geth might find a way to counter  them, represented both a fatal hubris and lack of strategic foresight.

You've switched horses. Moments ago you were hating on the  Quarians for relying on outside help. Now you're hating on them for not  predicting the Geth would get outside help.

And it's not as bizarre as you make it sound like. Xen made the Geth weak. They didn't underestimate the Geth, they just didn't expect the Reapers.  And considering the fact all the Geth who supported the Reapers are dead or rewritten, and all that remain are jibbering idiots it was not a bad decision to proceed.

"Don't attack because who knows what immensely powerful aliens may fall from the sky and magically make our enemies Godlike" is terrible military logic.  If you had been in charge of the Quarians you would have got them all killed.

When you play as Shepard to do you fight mercs or do you stay in cover in case random powerful races happen to drop in and destroy you for fighting a fight you can clearly win?

I never 'hated' on the Quarians. I said their Admirals are collectively a bunch incompetent bumblers, which is a fact.

I also didn't criticize the Quarians for seeking outside help. I criticized their Admirals for launching an unprovoked attack on the Geth at the worst possible moment, with an extremely flawed war plan that required the Geth to neither adapt to the Quarian countermeasures, or to seek outside help from the Reapers. The Admirals took 17 million Quarians to war against perhaps billions of Geth, with a war plan that bet all its chips on Xen's countermeasures being the decisive element that could overcome the Quarian's quantitative disadvantage. That the possibilities that the Geth could overcome the countermeasures or seek an alliance with the Reapers never entered into Quarian strategic thinking, is mind boggingly daft.

You claim that the Quarians had no way of knowing that the Geth could potentially ally with the Reapers. I find that statement a bit bizarre, considering that the Quarian war begins while the Reapers are invading the Milky Way, and just three years after an alliance between Reapers and at least one sizeable faction of Geth. That such an alliance was a possibility would have been evident to anyone not bereft of common sense. Unfortunately common sense is apparently a rare commodity among the Quarian Admiralty.

MetioricTest wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

A false assumption.

The Quarian species had survived for 3  centuries on the Migrant Fleet. Other than the Reapers, what had changed that threatened the Quarians with imminent extinction? And if the  Reapers are that threat, why were the Quarians creating a costly  distraction from the real threat by warring with the Geth?

No it's a real inlore canon fact.  What changed? You said it yourself, they've been in space for 3 centuries. Their ships are falling apart, their liveships are barely working. They have less than 70 years before the Floatia becomes unsustainable and they all (or at least nearly all) die.  They HAVE to either get Rannoch or colonize a planet now. This is why men like Gerrel and Tali's dad are so desperate.

Even if the best case scenario occured: Quarians ignored Rannoch, joined the fight against the Reapers and then combined we  beat the Reapers: The damage to the Floatia would render the Quarians doomed and they would die out anyway.

This is why Rannoch is a bigger priority to the fleet than defeating the Reapers.

A threat that is 70 years away is far less immediate than the ongoing Reaper invasion. Any plans for finding a home world should have been put on hiatus until after the Reapers were dealt with, particularly if that plan involved a war. After all what sense is there in finding a home world, only to be annihilated by the Reapers shortly afterward?

The war with a Geth was a costly distraction that could have potentially annihilated the Quarians, and doomed the rest of the galaxy.

MetioricTest wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The difference between the two is that the Quarians initiated
the conflict. They began a war they would have lost without intervention
by Shepard and Legion. While the Geth *may* have lost without Reaper
intervention, they did not begin the conflict.

Hence it is the Quarian Admirals, and not the Geth, who come across as being criminally incompetent.

How does that make anysense.  The Quarians are incompetent because they were completely winning until outside influence and then afterr outside influence used outside influence of their own to win anyway? 

That's both circular and self-defeating. Sure the Quarians "Started it" but they're not incompotent because the Geth got help and they are certainly not incompotent because they complerely counteracted the help.

And there's no "may" about it. The Quarians were absolutely dominating with ease, and do so again unless you purposefully save the Geth. 

Whether or not the Geth are incompetent is a bit of a non-issue, as that has absolutely no bearing on whether the Quarian Admirals are incompetent. Also this thread, last I checked, was about the Quarians.

Second, it was the Quarian Admirals who began the war. Thus they must be taken to task for the lack of strategic foresight in not anticipating the Geth finding a way to nullify Xen's countermeasures, or to anticipate a potential alliance between the Geth and the Reapers. The Quarians went to war with a plan that failed disastrously, and when it did, they had no Plan B other than yelling, "Shepard, Halp! We dun goofed!"

If you want to start another thread discussing whether or not the Geth should have anticipated and prepared for something similar to Xen's countermeasures, go right ahead. But whether or not the Geth failed to anticipate that has no bearing on whether or not the Quarian war plan was badly flawed, and doomed to failure by a lack of strategic foresight. And doomed to failure it was.

MetioricTest wrote...

You're not thinking about this from the Quarians perspective. The Quarians can't just "Put Rannoch on hold and go fight the Reapers." when they are literally flying their homes, children and resources into battle. In a fleet which is already falling apart.

Even if The Reapers only destroyed half the fleet, that would still mark the end of the Quarians without Rannoch.

And even if the Reapers somehow failed to destroy any small ships, if they successfully take down even 1 liveship they have crippled the Quarians.

A war to retake Rannoch was not the Quarians only option, particularly since that would involve a potentially lengthy war at precisely the moment when the Reapers are invading and conquering the rest of the galaxy. It was a costly, and potentially disastrous distraction.

The Quarians had other options for the safeguarding of their civilians. They could have negotiated with the Turians to temporaril house them on Turian colonies with dextro-based ecologies that had not yet been invaded by the Reapers, or negotiated with the Council to place them on as of yet unsettled worlds. With the Reapers invading the galaxy and the Council species fighting a desperate, but losing battle, concessions and accomodations would have been all but guaranteed. In return for Quarian military assistance the Quarians could have certainly brokered a deal that would have kept their civilians safe in the short term, without getting embroiled in a foolish war with the Geth.

MetioricTest wrote...

You're going in circles AND attempting to colonize a new world may have ended with Quarian extinction, or at least utterly crippled them.

Colonizing a new world was much less of a threat to the Quarians than launching a war of conquest against the Geth based on a foolish war plan that was doomed to failure, at precisely the moment that the Reapers were invading the rest of the galaxy.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 09 avril 2013 - 05:48 .

[Obadiah]

If you, the player, run up against their beliefs, they can appear as DBs. But we run into a lot of Quarians in MEU, and many of them are quite likeable.

I am afraid there are a lot of cultures like that in the world.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm guessing if Shepard ran in to Admiral Adama and Col Tigh he'd think they were DBs, too, right? Gaius Baltar would be the hero because he wanted peace with they cylons. Shepard would think that they were DBs for taking out Resurrection. I get it, now. I get the Quarian hate. Of course they didn't give them all Eastern European accents like they did most of the Quarians. Therefore the Quarians are "different, " I get it.

We who like the Quarians are in the minority. Bioware has the numbers. We're the renegades. We go against the grain. We think for ourselves. We stand by our friends.

Xen was an awesome character. I wish they'd done more with her. Gerrel was played by one of my favorite voice actors.

[MetioricTest]

Han Shot First wrote...
I never 'hated' on the Quarians. I said their Admirals are collectively a bunch incompetent bumblers, which is a fact.

No It;s an opinion. And a bad one.

I also didn't criticize the Quarians for seeking outside help. I criticized their Admirals for launching an unprovoked attack on the Geth at the worst possible moment, with an extremely flawed war plan that required the Geth to neither adapt to the Quarian countermeasures, or to seek outside help from the Reapers.

The attack was not unprovoked. As far as the Quarians are concerned, the Geth are still an enemy. (And most of the galaxy agrees) the plan was fantastic and was working and the "time" was the only time. This was there chance to strike.

he Admirals took 17 million Quarians to war against perhaps billions of Geth, with a war plan that bet all its chips on Xen's countermeasures being the decisive element that could overcome the Quarian's quantitative disadvantage. That the possibilities that the Geth could overcome the countermeasures or seek an alliance with the Reapers never entered into Quarian strategic thinking, is mind boggingly daft.

Said without irony while 14 minutes later we're recruiting Quarian aid to build the Crucible.

Why is the Crucible a good idea? What if it doesn't work, what if the Reapers overcome or adapt to it? We have no choice, we do it or we lose our homes and our lives. The Quarians had a plan and the plan worked. And would have worked with ease without the Reapers.

You claim that the Quarians had no way of knowing that the Geth could potentially ally with the Reapers. I find that statement a bit bizarre, considering that the Quarian war begins while the Reapers are invading the Milky Way, and just three years after an alliance between Reapers and at least one sizeable faction of Geth. That such an alliance was a possibility would have been evident to anyone not bereft of common sense. Unfortunately common sense is apparently a rare commodity among the Quarian Admiralty.

The Geth were crippled, the Reapers are unknown in terms of agenda and the Geth that are on Rannoch are ones who don't follow the Reapers.

If you're terrified of "We can't take action because the Reapers might jump in to stop us." you never would have gotten to the shroud or found the VI on Thessia.

A threat that is 70 years away is far less immediate than the ongoing Reaper invasion.

You don't understand. The fleet is their home. If they lose ships to the Reapers, they all (or mostly) die and suffer. Even if they win. As far as the Quarians are concerned the Reapers are not a big deal because they're dead regardless.

They needed a homeworld.

Whether or not the Geth are incompetent is a bit of a non-issue, as that has absolutely no bearing on whether the Quarian Admirals are incompetent. Also this thread, last I checked, was about the Quarians.

Actually if the Geth are incompetent then it makes the Quarians attack on them more justified.

Second, it was the Quarian Admirals who began the war. Thus they must be taken to task for the lack of strategic foresight in not anticipating the Geth finding a way to nullify Xen's countermeasures, or to anticipate a potential alliance between the Geth and the Reapers. The Quarians went to war with a plan that failed disastrously, and when it did, they had no Plan B other than yelling, "Shepard, Halp! We dun goofed!"

The Geth didn't create counter-measures, the Geth were being dominated and obliterated, the plan was succeeded immensely. It was the Geth who had to run to the Reapers and go "Reapers, Halp! We dun goofed!"

And in response they brought in Shepard, who negated the Reapers help. And then once again the Quarians dominate unless you stop them.

You're having the most ridiculous double standard I've seen in years.

<quote>A war to retake Rannoch was not the Quarians only option, particularly since that would involve a potentially lengthy war at precisely the moment when the Reapers are invading and conquering the rest of the galaxy. It was a costly, and potentially disastrous distraction.</quote>

I will repeat this one more time because you don't understand it.

Not. For. The. Quarians.

For you? For the Turians? For the Asari? Yes But the Quarians are dead unless they get a homeworld. So the Reaper threat is secondary to them. If they go to battle the Reapers without a planet, they will die. Even if they win.

They need Rannoch or to colonize a new planet to survive, and Colonzing is dangeroius, takes a long time and might not work. Meanwhile Xen pretty much gave them Rannoch on a silver plater

The Quarians had other options for the safeguarding of their civilians. They could have negotiated with the Turians to temporaril house them on Turian colonies with dextro-based ecologies that had not yet been invaded by the Reapers, or negotiated with the Council to place them on as of yet unsettled worlds. With the Reapers invading the galaxy and the Council species fighting a desperate, but losing battle, concessions and accomodations would have been all but guaranteed. In return for Quarian military assistance the Quarians could have certainly brokered a deal that would have kept their civilians safe in the short term, without getting embroiled in a foolish war with the Geth.

You're being ridiculous and thinking from the perspective of the humans. "Please Turians and council during a time of epic war, let our citizens land on and join your own planets, none of which are safe because the Reapers are encroaching on, even though you hate us, have no resources and anyone we send there would have to wear an environmental suit permanently."

And even then that's giving up on their homeworld which they seemingly can easily win back and just spreading their people around the galaxy.

And once again, even if they won the war, the fleet would be so devastated that it would be hard for the Quarians to ever recover. And now you've spread them across crappy half-destroyed colonize that hate them.

MetioricTest wrote...

Colonizing a new world was much less of a threat to the Quarians than launching a war of conquest against the Geth based on a foolish war plan that was doomed to failure, at precisely the moment that the Reapers were invading the rest of the galaxy.

No. Logically it really really wasn't. And the plan succeeds unless you purposefully stop it.

You really need to stop thinking about this from the perspective of a human wanting Earth back. And think about it from the Quarian perspective. You're telling them to ignore ignore, make their people suffer, risk extinction and give up on their homeworld... just to help you get your homeworld back...