Just to start some kind of discussion... am I the only one who wondered why the Illusive man, a guy who thinks humans are like the best stuff ever, would team you up with aliens in ME2? I guess that would have been boring gameplay-wise, but I always thought it was hilarious how he was all "HUMANATEEE first" and then give you a crew full of aliens.
It is said in video files on the cerberus base, that the IM tticked you. He gave you a crew he new you would work with.. some people you still knew, like Joker or Dr. Chuckwas... sympathic guys, like the machinists. The people he wanted you to "use" were carfully picked by the illusive man to give you the impression to be still in charge... and that you keep working for the illusive mans aims.
Just something else that I picked up on during my 2nd playthrough.
On Thessia talking to the VI(Called Vengence btw) he reveals that the protheans were unable to finish the crucible as there was division within them. Some wanted to destroy the reapers others wanted to control them. He also reveals that those who wanted control were later identified as being indoctrinated.
When speaking to TIM on Thessia you can accuse him of being indoctrinated, his response I could say the same about you fighting a war you know you can't win.
After accusing him of basically giving up TIM comes back with, You don't know how long I have been fighting the reapers for....
Not really concrete proof on idoctrination but certainly a little more fuel for the fire.
I want to shout out a big thank you to all the active people in this thread. You are really investing a lot of time to give us a reasonable explanation. I posted before expressing doubts about the forebars or metal bars, that can be seen in the "Shepard lives" scene. They look similar the cables on the citadel, but the rubble is absolutely identical to the concrete you can see everywhere in London. So you conviced me, that they are not cables at all, but really just metal or a texture reuse. Givin the theory a little more thought, i came up with the following:
1. Beginning my second playthrough, i noticed that in the scene where you first meet the boy, there is also the end theme playing while talking to him. So we have a definitive connection of the child on earth with the ending. It could still mean, that it just should sound sad and the starchild is nothing more than a projection of the real boy. But on the other hand, the scene heavily suggestes the boy was not real in the first place. So i think it´s likely, the use of the end theme in this scene is a clue, that there is more to this boy than what is obvious at first glance and gives us something to see the ending in a different light.
2. I had a discussion on another forum, with someone heavily doubting the theory, asking why they were even interested in indoctrinating Shepard and not simply kill him when they have a chance. Did anyone read the Redemption comics? Harbringer seemed very very interested in obtaining Shepard´s body for some reason. Does anyone have a clue what may be so special about him? If not i will try to dig deeper and see, if there was already a good theory for harbis motivation. Well, the important thing is: We have a clear motivation and that is all, that really matters for now. Did they really forget about this and dropped the whole plot point (and Harbringer), don´t think so.
3. Many people accused BW of plagarism regarding the Starchild song. But i took a look at it with the IDT in mind. Maybe i only see what i want to see, but i give you my short interpretation. Maybe I´m not so wrong after all:
"so mysterious is your world concealed beyond the stars"
unknown origin of the reapers, we don´t know their true motivation or where they are coming from yet
"far away from the Earth it flows one with time and dark as the night"
dark origins (maybe reference to the lovecraftian horror sovereign suggested), but still they show up to harvest "our world" as soon as the cycle demands it
"A million shapes and colours are storming inside your mind"
reference to the endings and the "lots of speculation" part
"let go of your thoughts and dreams. What can you see now?"
There is more behind the ending than the obvious part. We should not take everything at face value.
Green background:
"You can´t save them anymore... it´s too late now"
Reapers have obviously won.
"Destroy the wall of time"
End the cycles, or at least let the player think he ends them
"Tides of life will take you away."
Tides of life = new DNA, space magic and Shepards death
"Starchild, visions are born from the unknown force, it dominates the way of time."
Reference to the "solution", idea behind the cycles, or rather the lie he tells us
"Nothing can keep you away from the need to create, cause your path is free"
Either a) Reapers have won, we cant stop them anymore from creating more of their abominations or the nonsensical space magic we see in the synthesis ending
Blue background:
"I hold the fire within myself....."
and the stuff that follows is a refernce to shepard´s journey, all he/she has experienced and suffered
"I´m diving into the bottomless sea" "Now i´m watching my life flowing in the dark"
Shepard´s death in the control ending, taking control of the (dark) reapers
"Something is dying, yet something is born"
The cycles continie, Shepard has failed teh mission Red background:
"The curtains of mist are fading, ant the veils of star clouds are revealed"
Shepard realizes the indoctrination, understands what is going on
"Storms of new energy flows in the depths of my mind"
While being hurt and passive before, he regains control over his mind, he is no longer limping while shooting at teh red ending thing
"New constellations are born in total harmony of perfection"
Hope for the future, optimism
"And the dissonant unbalance was broken"
Cycles are broken, everything is obvious now
"I´m floating in the sea of stars...."
Metaphors for Shepard´s Indoctrination
"I will be lost in the dream when the dark days come"
Giving in to Indictrination
"But i will make the time run backwards, and i´ll make the stars shine again."
What appers to be the end of the story, is not actually the end, time runs backwards and Shepard wakes up where we were supposed to belive the real finale started. He/She still has the will to fight for a posivtive outcome.
Then we have the last chapter of the song (finale), still a coincedence?
Well, i´ll leave the last bits up to you. I for myself also think they make a lot of sense.
Just to start some kind of discussion... am I the only one who wondered why the Illusive man, a guy who thinks humans are like the best stuff ever, would team you up with aliens in ME2? I guess that would have been boring gameplay-wise, but I always thought it was hilarious how he was all "HUMANATEEE first" and then give you a crew full of aliens.
TIM is an incredible difficult character. His motivation is to stop the Reapers, he knew they were comming since Shanxi, where he got the Reapertech upgrade by accident. He prefer humans but he is not raccist. Cerberus actions are important to find a way to stop the Reapers. He is not trieng to get the emperor of the future or even to repeat a galactic alien holocaust. He is using the xenophobic and rassist humans to gain influence for his plan. As he say on his own Cerberus can't get destroyed, because its an idea. He may not share this idea, but he uses it.
"But i will make the time run backwards, and i´ll make the stars shine again."
What appers to be the end of the story, is not actually the end, time runs backwards and Shepard wakes up where we were supposed to belive the real finale started. He/She still has the will to fight for a posivtive outcome.
Then we have the last chapter of the song (finale), still a coincedence?
Well, i´ll leave the last bits up to you. I for myself also think they make a lot of sense.
I thought the exact same thing about that part of the song. Mae tiem run bakcward, turn back to where we were and change everything, make the stars shine.
I want to shout out a big thank you to all the active people in this thread. You are really investing a lot of time to give us a reasonable explanation. I posted before expressing doubts about the forebars or metal bars, that can be seen in the "Shepard lives" scene. They look similar the cables on the citadel, but the rubble is absolutely identical to the concrete you can see everywhere in London. So you conviced me, that they are not cables at all, but really just metal or a texture reuse. Givin the theory a little more thought, i came up with the following:
1. Beginning my second playthrough, i noticed that in the scene where you first meet the boy, there is also the end theme playing while talking to him. So we have a definitive connection of the child on earth with the ending. It could still mean, that it just should sound sad and the starchild is nothing more than a projection of the real boy. But on the other hand, the scene heavily suggestes the boy was not real in the first place. So i think it´s likely, the use of the end theme in this scene is a clue, that there is more to this boy than what is obvious at first glance and gives us something to see the ending in a different light.
2. I had a discussion on another forum, with someone heavily doubting the theory, asking why they were even interested in indoctrinating Shepard and not simply kill him when they have a chance. Did anyone read the Redemption comics? Harbringer seemed very very interested in obtaining Shepard´s body for some reason. Does anyone have a clue what may be so special about him? If not i will try to dig deeper and see, if there was already a good theory for harbis motivation. Well, the important thing is: We have a clear motivation and that is all, that really matters for now. Did they really forget about this and dropped the whole plot point (and Harbringer), don´t think so.
3. Many people accused BW of plagarism regarding the Starchild song. But i took a look at it with the IDT in mind. Maybe i only see what i want to see, but i give you my short interpretation. Maybe I´m not so wrong after all:
"so mysterious is your world concealed beyond the stars"
unknown origin of the reapers, we don´t know their true motivation or where they are coming from yet
"far away from the Earth it flows one with time and dark as the night"
dark origins (maybe reference to the lovecraftian horror sovereign suggested), but still they show up to harvest "our world" as soon as the cycle demands it
"A million shapes and colours are storming inside your mind"
reference to the endings and the "lots of speculation" part
"let go of your thoughts and dreams. What can you see now?"
There is more behind the ending than the obvious part. We should not take everything at face value.
Green background:
"You can´t save them anymore... it´s too late now"
Reapers have obviously won.
"Destroy the wall of time"
End the cycles, or at least let the player think he ends them
"Tides of life will take you away."
Tides of life = new DNA, space magic and Shepards death
"Starchild, visions are born from the unknown force, it dominates the way of time."
Reference to the "solution", idea behind the cycles, or rather the lie he tells us
"Nothing can keep you away from the need to create, cause your path is free"
Either a) Reapers have won, we cant stop them anymore from creating more of their abominations or the nonsensical space magic we see in the synthesis ending
Blue background:
"I hold the fire within myself....."
and the stuff that follows is a refernce to shepard´s journey, all he/she has experienced and suffered
"I´m diving into the bottomless sea" "Now i´m watching my life flowing in the dark"
Shepard´s death in the control ending, taking control of the (dark) reapers
"Something is dying, yet something is born"
The cycles continie, Shepard has failed teh mission Red background:
"The curtains of mist are fading, ant the veils of star clouds are revealed"
Shepard realizes the indoctrination, understands what is going on
"Storms of new energy flows in the depths of my mind"
While being hurt and passive before, he regains control over his mind, he is no longer limping while shooting at teh red ending thing
"New constellations are born in total harmony of perfection"
Hope for the future, optimism
"And the dissonant unbalance was broken"
Cycles are broken, everything is obvious now
"I´m floating in the sea of stars...."
Metaphors for Shepard´s Indoctrination
"I will be lost in the dream when the dark days come"
Giving in to Indictrination
"But i will make the time run backwards, and i´ll make the stars shine again."
What appers to be the end of the story, is not actually the end, time runs backwards and Shepard wakes up where we were supposed to belive the real finale started. He/She still has the will to fight for a posivtive outcome.
Then we have the last chapter of the song (finale), still a coincedence?
Well, i´ll leave the last bits up to you. I for myself also think they make a lot of sense.
Some people say we are lovers of conspiracy theories... But... Too much coincidence! ^^
To play devil's advocate for a second....As a believer in the Indoctrination Theory there is only one thing that has bothered me about it. So can somebody help me out rationally?
If you want the best 'evidence' for the IDT not being true, it actually does not appear in the game. Bioware and EA executives' actions have given more support to the IDT not being true than anything we can rationalize in the video game.
If IDT was true and Bioware has DLC all along, then after this huge outrage occurred Bioware's response would have been less defensive and perhaps more enlightening to what their current plans are. They went immediately into PR mode (remember they (writers and developers) pretty much stopped responding after the first few days) and they followed this with CYA (cover your ass) mode.
We have a few interesting tidbits here and there, but for the most part it's been delay delay delay oh April, keep buying, don't trade in! It's been an obvious stall tactic (and rightly so if they have this HUGE plan), but the way they planned this has been less than motivating (to me).
Now we've had huge push back by fans who, are rightfuly so, upset at the ending and a little hurt that they've been getting double talk. So bad ratings, bad word of mouth, and bad press (no such thing as bad news is good news in the gaming world) has us here at this pass.
This week alone I've seen two places (best buy and amazon) sell the game at a reduced price. It's three weeks old. It's not Black Friday or anything. Games (especially AAA games) don't drop in price for at the least a few months (and that's rare). We are seeing the effect of this. Are we going to see any news?
The truth in the matter as more time goes by the less likely this theory is going to be true. If they had a plan, it would be incredibly easy to send a 'message' to the die-hard fans that want answers. I mean this is not hard. Prometheus (a movie) has been avoiding the obvious other movie connection (and still does by Ridley Scott--amazingly enough), but there have been new trailers that have basically said YES THIS IS WHAT WE ARE DOING. SHHHH
Nope. Bioware is silent.
Somebody please help me through this thought process? I believe in IDT, but every time I think about this I get worried for a massive disappointment in a week.
Places are starting to reduce prices, but my counter to that is it sold 3.5million on first few days. I think it is safe to assume the vast majority of people who wanted it bought it on release. Especially looking at this thread which shows that Mass Effect 2 sold under half that when it was released. It is also reported here that Mass Effect 3 actually outsold 1 and 2 combined so I would say that Mass Effect 3 is already a huge success considering it is an action RPG, titles that sell a lot more tend to be multiplayer based or yearly franchises
While EA's hand is clearly influencing Bioware, I would like to think that Bioware is still in control and they recognise their brand loyalty and what is is worth, which is why when EA launched a new studio it wasn't called EA.. but Bioware..
I trust Bioware will do well by it's fans in which case they will probably support IT, maybe not exactly as we have speculated but they will certainly reference it in some way.
I get more and more trust in Bioware. At the moment I really think they were planing all of it and we will fall on our knees and accept them as our masters on April the 6. XD
And I hope I will see these people, who were offending against our IDT or liked the ending, when they recognized how much they failed XD
A nice catch from Reddit poster about the very first thing you see after the prologue.
"Does it seem like such a far fetched idea when the very first image you see in this game (after the prologue) is a misrepresentation of reality?
Is it any coincidence that the person holding that toy is the child who ultimately is the avatar of the Reapers on top of the Citadel and is in Shepard's dreams - dreams where she is tormented by ghostly figures - some might even describe them as oily, black shadows.
I could go on ..."
Not evidence at all but perhaps a nice bit of writers hinting at later events. They certainly paid attention to the fine detail in the rest of the game.
Even the artbook supports this, the child is suppose to represent the people that Shepard coud not save. So the question is why would a million year old(VI on Thessia revels age of crucible) take on the form of a human, much less a human which was defined as people that Shepard coud not save? Taking at face value it is too big a coincidence.
Most logically argument against this I have heard is that it took the form of somthing familiar, but do to this would require some level of brain scanning/probing from a piece of reaper tech
I want to shout out a big thank you to all the active people in this thread. You are really investing a lot of time to give us a reasonable explanation. I posted before expressing doubts about the forebars or metal bars, that can be seen in the "Shepard lives" scene. They look similar the cables on the citadel, but the rubble is absolutely identical to the concrete you can see everywhere in London. So you conviced me, that they are not cables at all, but really just metal or a texture reuse. Givin the theory a little more thought, i came up with the following:
I remember your bits of doubt, glad to see that we won you over! Heres to looking forward to april!
A nice catch from Reddit poster about the very first thing you see after the prologue.
"Does it seem like such a far fetched idea when the very first image you see in this game (after the prologue) is a misrepresentation of reality?
Is it any coincidence that the person holding that toy is the child who ultimately is the avatar of the Reapers on top of the Citadel and is in Shepard's dreams - dreams where she is tormented by ghostly figures - some might even describe them as oily, black shadows.
I could go on ..."
Not evidence at all but perhaps a nice bit of writers hinting at later events. They certainly paid attention to the fine detail in the rest of the game.
Even the artbook supports this, the child is suppose to represent the people that Shepard coud not save. So the question is why would a million year old(VI on Thessia revels age of crucible) take on the form of a human, much less a human which was defined as people that Shepard coud not save? Taking at face value it is too big a coincidence.
Most logically argument against this I have heard is that it took the form of somthing familiar, but do to this would require some level of brain scanning/probing from a piece of reaper tech
I guess you could argue that if the Catalyst is powerful enough to make space magic happen, he could probably read Shep's mind and take the shape of something innocent and non-threatening in order to appeal to him.
You people don't understand it. None of you do. The problem with the ending is not that it doesn't make sense. The problem is that it doesn't provide closure for the ones you cared about. Just Shepard(he dies. yes he dies, and he should). I confess, Indoctrination theory makes more sense than the current ending, but it provides FAR LESS CLOSURE. It doesn't show the fate of past squadmates or all the civilizations(like the literal ending). But it also gains a bit more. In case you haven't noticed in the literal interpretation, the reapers are destroyed and the galaxy is safe. If indoctrination theory is true, the Reapers are out there and the release ending basically stops before the final fight. For me that would be a far worse and more infuriating scenario than the current. Even more infuriating. Not a rushed ending, but no ending at all.
Bioware if this was your plan all along, please reconsider at once. Even not doing anything is a lesser evil.
Sorry boys. You made a wonderful job piacing it together, but the theories big failure is a fact.
I am not sure I like the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated. That means that the reapers have won (because you cannot destroy them if they control you) and all the advanced life of current galaxy will be destroyed. So in other words its game over and nothing you did during the 3 games mattered.
Also the ending being just a hallusination and the real ending being released in a future DLC makes even less sence.
In a way I like the idea of intoxication theory, but that maybe just my weird sence of humor.
The current ending needs maybe a bit more explanation and setup, like who is starchild, where did he come from, why is he so sure about the things that he is so sure apparently etc. Also It would be nice if Bioware made sure that the different results showed a bit better, like crew surviving all/part, earth surviving/destroyng part/destroying total and so on.
Since you mention it, Liara is the only character who is actually nude at any point in ME3. Ash is wearing a bra and panties in her romance scene, and, aside from that being dumb, it's the same scene (animations and camera angles) as Liara's, so you wouldn't have seen anything anyway...
Confused.
It's the double standard that gets me, for example at the start of ME3 if Kaiden lives you visit him and hospital and see full man nipples in high definiation. Visit Ashley and she is wearing what looks like a standard issue miltary t-shirt. I wasn't expecting topless(underwear perhaps) just seems a little bit of a double standard to me.
Bioware seems to have toned down the whole "sex" aspect of games ever since Fox propaganda went on a crusade against them. Personally it was their tirade against it that made me go out and buy it in the first place.
It's a pathetic point I know. I have a problem but the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem
You people don't understand it. None of you do. The problem with the ending is not that it doesn't make sense. The problem is that it doesn't provide closure for the ones you cared about. Just Shepard(he dies. yes he dies, and he should). I confess, Indoctrination theory makes more sense than the current ending, but it provides FAR LESS CLOSURE. It doesn't show the fate of past squadmates or all the civilizations(like the literal ending). But it also gains a bit more. In case you haven't noticed in the literal interpretation, the reapers are destroyed and the galaxy is safe. If indoctrination theory is true, the Reapers are out there and the release ending basically stops before the final fight. For me that would be a far worse and more infuriating scenario than the current. Even more infuriating. Not a rushed ending, but no ending at all.
Bioware if this was your plan all along, please reconsider at once. Even not doing anything is a lesser evil.
Sorry boys. You made a wonderful job piacing it together, but the theories big failure is a fact.
Duh. You know that the definition of a theory makes it unable to fail?
Also, in case you didn't notice, most of us here are thinking there might be a DLC that will further expand the ending.. providing closure.. and yeah, that can actually work with the indoctrination theory...
You people don't understand it. None of you do. The problem with the ending is not that it doesn't make sense. The problem is that it doesn't provide closure for the ones you cared about. Just Shepard(he dies. yes he dies, and he should). I confess, Indoctrination theory makes more sense than the current ending, but it provides FAR LESS CLOSURE. It doesn't show the fate of past squadmates or all the civilizations(like the literal ending). But it also gains a bit more. In case you haven't noticed in the literal interpretation, the reapers are destroyed and the galaxy is safe. If indoctrination theory is true, the Reapers are out there and the release ending basically stops before the final fight. For me that would be a far worse and more infuriating scenario than the current. Even more infuriating. Not a rushed ending, but no ending at all.
Bioware if this was your plan all along, please reconsider at once. Even not doing anything is a lesser evil.
Sorry boys. You made a wonderful job piacing it together, but the theories big failure is a fact.
Thats your opinion, i believe most people would think this is a great idea, alan wake released its ending as a dlc, there are others... and dont tell me you wouldnt buy it if it wasnt free(i think it will be, perhaps on the disc already)
Just relax and wait for april to roll around, you could perhaps be pleasantly surprised!
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the nonsensical space magic we see in the synthesis ending
:crying:
