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[lookingglassmind]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

The reason that you see the child at the end as a Godchild is due to the Reaper's attempts to violate this image of everything that you're fighting for and present it as a distorted version.  It's poetically apt to have the very essence of what Shepard is fighting for be the one to confront him and present his final choices.

Well said.

[Sl4sh3r]

Gam3Ov3r wrote...

Sl4sh3r wrote...

For anyone interested, I made a thread with all the signature pictures so they're easier to find.

http://social.biowar...5/index/9786308

Show your support! #RetakeMassEffect

How do i go about putting one on?

Left side of the page.

Profile-> Forum Settings

[ img ]i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/NAM1025/americanfleet.jpg[ /img ]

Just remove the spaces after [ and before ]

Also replace that picture with the one you want to use.

[MissMaster_2]

I'm still saying that that kid was not real, because no one helped his ass on to the shuttle.

[tuzem2]

lookingglassmind wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

Watching the YouTube video -- someone posted this in the comments:

I have very carefully read all the smart ideas on the forum, but i am temped to disagree with this statement

-The child does not actually exist. He is an attempt to indoctrinate Shepard. Nobody but Shepard ever sees or interacts with the child.

This is a basis of your theory, but.. in the game you go to the 'Dock' level, turn right and you will see "Missing persons" poster with that child picture on it.

TheMbovane

Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this? Also, not sure it really matters. The kid probably died in the assault, but the child that Shepard sees in the duct (and every time henceforth) is the Catalyst.

If the kid in the duct is the Catalyst, then that as a very heart breaking piece of foreshadowing because it came true.. my only problem is why chose the form a child who has no real connection to Shepard aside from the brief scene where Shepard sees the child playing from their window?

This has been explained by the community in this thread. I will attempt to sum it up.

We propose that this child was chosen because of its universal applicability as an archetype for hope and survival of mankind. To most people, a child would be an obvious symbol of these meanings. The catalyst chooses this as a direct manipulation attempt -- appealing at Shepard's basic, most primal emotions about his species. Invoking an image that represents hope, and that must be protected at all costs -- a small human child.

Add to this the fact that a child represents innocence. What's IDK sacred about life, the purest for of life if you will. To see that chid die is to see how life is being extinguished from hummanity. This is why Shpeard keeps dreaming about the child, in my opinion.

[Invisibilly]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

Gam3Ov3r wrote...

 The longer bioware goes on without an official statement the worse this gets for them. There is a universal hatred for these endings. Waiting for other regions to get the game before they respond is just foolish. If no one else liked the endings im pretty sure they wont either.

Isn't the only region waiting for release Japan (or is it all of Asia)? Do they honestly think that the Japanese culture is so different they'll love these endings while everyone else is against them? 

Exactly my point they need to respond now not later

[N30795]

I thought something was off the moment I set foot on the Citadel and heard that Anderson was there too. But I got along with it, to the end of the game... with its crapy choices, and my squadmates suddenly on the Normandy.

It left me empty. It was so incoherent...

Then, without even knowing that there was already a thread about the "hallucination theory", I post on the french boards out of despair: "Maybe it's not real, maybe we're seeing what the Reapers want us to see".

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not alone on this.

Gam3Ov3r wrote...

 The longer bioware goes on without an official statement the worse this gets for them. There is a universal hatred for these endings. Waiting for other regions to get the game before they respond is just foolish. If no one else liked the endings im pretty sure they wont either.

Oh, they said they were waiting for the reactions in Europe.

Well, we nearly all hate the endings too. <_<

Modifié par N30795, 11 mars 2012 - 09:33 .

[lookingglassmind]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

Isn't the only region waiting for release Japan (or is it all of Asia)? Do they honestly think that the Japanese culture is so different they'll love these endings while everyone else is against them? 

Well, if the Player Indoctrination theory is correct, then this delay makes sense. We would be robbing Asia of its chance to be indoctrinated/resist if we explained the canon ending in an official context before its release there.

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 11 mars 2012 - 09:36 .

[Ainyan42]

lookingglassmind wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

Watching the YouTube video -- someone posted this in the comments:

I have very carefully read all the smart ideas on the forum, but i am temped to disagree with this statement

-The child does not actually exist. He is an attempt to indoctrinate Shepard. Nobody but Shepard ever sees or interacts with the child.

This is a basis of your theory, but.. in the game you go to the 'Dock' level, turn right and you will see "Missing persons" poster with that child picture on it.

TheMbovane

Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this? Also, not sure it really matters. The kid probably died in the assault, but the child that Shepard sees in the duct (and every time henceforth) is the Catalyst.

If the kid in the duct is the Catalyst, then that as a very heart breaking piece of foreshadowing because it came true.. my only problem is why chose the form a child who has no real connection to Shepard aside from the brief scene where Shepard sees the child playing from their window?

This has been explained by the community in this thread. I will attempt to sum it up.

We propose that this child was chosen because of its universal applicability as an archetype for hope and survival of mankind. To most people, a child would be an obvious symbol of these meanings. The catalyst chooses this as a direct manipulation attempt -- appealing at Shepard's basic, most primal emotions about his species. Invoking an image that represents hope, and that must be protected at all costs -- a small human child.

You know, a child makes even more sense with the extended conversation from Anderson. He goes on about having a family and raising children, and tells Shepard (s)he would be a good parent. Wouldn't that stick in Shepard's head as one of the last things she heard from the man who had been her mentor - her father - through the entire series?

[themidz]

ot can please somebody explain to me how did TIM controlled shepard and anderson? thanks

[tuzem2]

N30795 wrote...

I thought something was off the moment I set foot on the Citadel and heard that Anderson was there too. But I got along with it, to the end of the game... with its crapy choices, and my squadmates suddenly on the Normandy.

It let me empty. It was so incoherent...

Then, without even knowing that there was already a thread about the "hallucination theory", I post on the french boards out of despair: "Maybe it's not real, maybe we're seeing what the Reapers want us to see".

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not alone on this.

Gam3Ov3r wrote...

 The longer bioware goes on without an official statement the worse this gets for them. There is a universal hatred for these endings. Waiting for other regions to get the game before they respond is just foolish. If no one else liked the endings im pretty sure they wont either.

Oh, they said they were waiting for the reactions in Europe.

Well, we nearly all hate the endings too. <_<

Speaking from Europe, yeah -- we don't like the endings as well

[mupp3tz]

Also, another piece of evidence presented towards the child "not existing" is a growling noise heard when Anderson draws Shepard's attention away from the child in the duct. I pointed out that this SAME noise can be heard multiple times throughout that scene and is most likely just a generic Reaper sound or noises made from the destruction of the attack on Earth.

[Militarized]

I don't mean to shamelessly promote my own thread... but if ME3 is a hallucination I made a thread depicting how it SHOULD end properly. Tis in my sig  

Modifié par Militarized, 11 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[lookingglassmind]

Militarized wrote...

I don't mean to shamelessly promote my own thread... but if ME3 is a hallucination I made a thread depicting how it SHOULD end properly.

Link, comrade!

EDIT: NVM. It's in your sig.

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 11 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[BlackDragonBane]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...


i'm not a fan of this theory, since it suggests that Shepard has been indoctrinated either before the start of ME3 or throughout the entire game -- but HOW?  You can say that there is a secret indoctrination device on the Normandy, his implants, etc. etc.  But I personally don't find that compelling.

The indoctrination could have started as early as Vrimire. Sovereign was present at the base, since Saren was using it to research the effects of indoctrination on the Salarians he had captured. You also talk to Sovereign via the platform on the beacon and I think no matter where the Reaper is, you can still be indoctrinated just by hear its voice.

At the end, Shepard is once again in proximity of Sovereign while fighting Saren, being further exposed to the effects of the indoctrination signal. Then Shepard spends two years dead and being rebuilt, with the inclusion of cybernetics for parts that couldn't be regrown or repaired. The next time Shepard is anywhere near a Reaper is the derelict Reaper you go to and the logs of the Cerebrus team that had been there proves that even the derelict Reaper was still emitting an indoctrination signal, further exposing Shepard.

Shepard was exposed, but not consistently enough where he was indoctrinated in the fashion that Saren, Benezia, and TIM are. The effects were still there, but Shepard's will to continue to resist them kept them at bay up until the end, when Harbinger go tthe opening it needed.

Pure speculation but take it as you will.

[holyshock18]

themidz wrote...

ot can please somebody explain to me how did TIM controlled shepard and anderson? thanks

Well if we go with the Indoctrination theory. Then its not Tim controling him. Then its simply a batle with Harbringer in his mind. And Tim is the first test Shepard have to overcome to break free of Harbringers Will

[Invisibilly]

Sl4sh3r wrote...

Gam3Ov3r wrote...

Sl4sh3r wrote...

For anyone interested, I made a thread with all the signature pictures so they're easier to find.

http://social.biowar...5/index/9786308

Show your support! #RetakeMassEffect

How do i go about putting one on?

Left side of the page.

I just see a question mark there now.

Profile-> Forum Settings

[ img ]i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/NAM1025/americanfleet.jpg[ /img ]

Just remove the spaces after [ and before ]

Also replace that picture with the one you want to use.

[Militarized]

lookingglassmind wrote...

Militarized wrote...

I don't mean to shamelessly promote my own thread... but if ME3 is a hallucination I made a thread depicting how it SHOULD end properly.

Link, comrade!

EDIT: NVM. It's in your sig.

Opinions always appreciated  

[Hellfire257]

The child has to affect the player just as much as Shepard. Either way, it still leaves it's desired effect. IMO the origin if the child is a minor detail - the effect it causes and its implications are paramount to this theory.

Modifié par Hellfire257, 11 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[Turtlicious]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Also, another piece of evidence presented towards the child "not existing" is a growling noise heard when Anderson draws Shepard's attention away from the child in the duct. I pointed out that this SAME noise can be heard multiple times throughout that scene and is most likely just a generic Reaper sound or noises made from the destruction of the attack on Earth.

You're right, I'm thinking that we remove this part, as it doesn't fit. Meaning that the Hum Vega hears is just a hum, and the child only matters when you get into the crucible.

Does anyone notice in the vid, the shadowy wisps on the ground much like the shadow wisps (shrunken) in the dreams?

[Evil_medved]

holyshock18 wrote...

themidz wrote...

ot can please somebody explain to me how did TIM controlled shepard and anderson? thanks

Well if we go with the Indoctrination theory. Then its not Tim controling him. Then its simply a batle with Harbringer in his mind. And Tim is the first test Shepard have to overcome to break free of Harbringers Will

Imagine that next dlc will be about Harbringer attempts to break Shepards will in abstract dream world. Something like original Alan Wake dlc.

[FugitiveMind]

Um, wow... this was around 40 pages when I went to bed last night....

Soooooo...

What'd i miss in the last 60 pages? Anything new??
I'd read it all, but by the time I caught up I'd have just as much to read...

[tuzem2]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Also, another piece of evidence presented towards the child "not existing" is a growling noise heard when Anderson draws Shepard's attention away from the child in the duct. I pointed out that this SAME noise can be heard multiple times throughout that scene and is most likely just a generic Reaper sound or noises made from the destruction of the attack on Earth.

I still think the child exists, but this does NOT disprove the hallucination theory.
The question is why was Shep having these dreams and what were they trying to hint, especially the last one.
And the Catalyst thing would of course asume the most innocent form possible in order to make Shep lower his/her guard and be more trusting.

[FERMi27]

OK, let's summarize this people.

1. Control - you succumb to Indoctrination. Reapers win, you die.
2. Synthesis - you succumb to Indoctrination. Reapers win, you die.(starting to get poetically at this point, isn't it?)
3. Destroy - you defeat the Indoctrination. You wake up a while after being hit by Harbinger. Now the real endgame starts.

[lavosslayer]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...


i'm not a fan of this theory, since it suggests that Shepard has been indoctrinated either before the start of ME3 or throughout the entire game -- but HOW?  You can say that there is a secret indoctrination device on the Normandy, his implants, etc. etc.  But I personally don't find that compelling.

The indoctrination could have started as early as Vrimire. Sovereign was present at the base, since Saren was using it to research the effects of indoctrination on the Salarians he had captured. You also talk to Sovereign via the platform on the beacon and I think no matter where the Reaper is, you can still be indoctrinated just by hear its voice.

At the end, Shepard is once again in proximity of Sovereign while fighting Saren, being further exposed to the effects of the indoctrination signal. Then Shepard spends two years dead and being rebuilt, with the inclusion of cybernetics for parts that couldn't be regrown or repaired. The next time Shepard is anywhere near a Reaper is the derelict Reaper you go to and the logs of the Cerebrus team that had been there proves that even the derelict Reaper was still emitting an indoctrination signal, further exposing Shepard.

Shepard was exposed, but not consistently enough where he was indoctrinated in the fashion that Saren, Benezia, and TIM are. The effects were still there, but Shepard's will to continue to resist them kept them at bay up until the end, when Harbinger go tthe opening it needed.

Pure speculation but take it as you will.

As stated earlier, Shepard is in direct contact with Harbinger via Object Rho in the Arrival DLC in ME2 which is where his first contact with true indoctrination begins...while not everyone played Arrival it is still considered part of the official storyline of Commander Shepard.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

CreepingGeth wrote...

Feops1 wrote...

IT WAS ALL A DREAM - has to be one of the poorest, laziest excuses for a retcon tool that exists.

It wouldn't really be a dream - it would be a battle with Harbinger inside your head as he tries to indoctrinate you.

Exactly, there are some plot holes here that Bioware just would never leave, considering their track record. How could Harbinger be such an influancing figure in ME2 and not even have one sentence of Dialogue. Then as is stated, the kid talks with it seems like harbingers voice very faint in the backround. I believe that bioware would not let the plot holes, and unexplained questions be allowed on ME3 without a plan. Closure will be needed to the triology, all we can do is make our voices heard and wait patiently. But also keep it civil, Bioware has provided us with such an excellent Sifi Series, i do not believe they will betray us now.