57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Rob_K1]

Gernbuster wrote...


1. I didn't write "proof" the whole day, I am aware that it is impossible to "proof" something in this stadium and I would advice u to use terms like "might be true" as well.
2. If u didn't bought "arrival" DLC ME3 assumed that Shep has done it, it is a plothole for everyone without the DLC. Of course it is unfair, but that is life.
In the case of my theorie, I think the same, you won't get the storie if you didn't played all DLCs and read through the kodex, the books and the comics. Thats how a Sci-Fi universe is working. Either u understand everything, or you lose the story as some point, ( for example now, I think IDT is right with the evidences I collected for myself and other people only see a giant plothole)
3. I am damed sure that Bioware wouldn't built hundred different ID levels, for every possible combination of DLC and knowledge. As I said, either u get the complex storie completly, or not at all.

Don't wish to get involved in the argument/debate here.

However, I do want to clear one thing up, based on facts.

Where I've underlined, you say ME 3 assumes that Shepard has done Arrival even if you never did. That's simply not true. If you start up a new game, you'll see that a group of marines ended up dealing with that DLC's events. It's referenced in the war assets, as it's a modifier/update for one of the marine divisions or something. Also, the game never references Shepard doing the mission via dialog. He's on trial for 'all the things he's done' otherwise at the game's start.

I know it makes more logical sense to assume Shepard has done it though, especially in an effort to tie it into the indoctrination theory. (As an aside, even without Arrival, I do think it's possible they could be trying to indoctrinate Shepard without him being around that artifact for several days.)


Also, while I do not believe I'm wrong on this, my memory could be fuzzy. If it is countered, I'll boot up the game to check again. I do realise this is being nitpicky as well.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 29 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[MadRabbit999]

Dance Craze wrote...

You can remove the other quotes manually

I knwo you can but the formatting is horrific.. you need to go and manually delete chuncks of words and do it carefully or you will put the quote name of some other guy instead of the one you are quoting.... not an easy thing to do when you are trying to spend 30 sec of posting time at work

Also my spellchecking does not work unless you type on quick replies... SERIOUSLY?????

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 29 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[Dance Craze]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

You can remove the other quotes manually

I knwo you can but the formatting is horrific.. you need to go and manually delete chuncks of words and do it carefully or you will put the quote name of some other guy instead of the one you are quoting.... not an easy thing to do when you are trying to spend 30 sec of posting time at work

:DI see what you mean... They also need a way to jump to posts you've written and those that you've been quoted in. I'm sure they never imagined a behemoth thread like this one, but the system is really clunky.

Google chrome spell checks all text I think.

Modifié par Dance Craze, 29 mars 2012 - 02:20 .

[Stigweird85]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

I just realized something and I am not sure if it relates to the theory or not but it is a discrepancy with the ending:

The wave that destroys/synthesis/controls the reapers is moving very slow on the galactic scale. At the speed it is moving on earth it would take months for the wave to reach the edges of the solar system and since the wave cannot make a mass relay jump, it must travel that way across the galaxy. Then they show the Normandy out running it due to its FTL drive I suppose, however even at the speed of light it would take hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of years to reach the edges of the galaxy. Everyone on Palaven, Tuchanka, Thessia, Sur'Kesh etc would be dead from the reapers by the time that wave reached them.

As a side note: Shepard must be the catalyst, regardless of theory since he initiates the crucible. The ghost child actually does nothing.

I think that was done more for theatrical purposes, if it was shown traveling at a feasible spread you wouldn't be able to see it.

Doesn't the explosion trigger at every relay? So each relay covers it's own system and in a reality where FTL travel is already possible we could probably assume it reaches the edges of space fairly quickly.  If it was one central explosion that then rippled outwards that would take a while to cover the universe.

[Helmschmied]

I think the IT is correct, but something is missing. Here's my theory on what happened:

First, they wanted to do something like STALKER did, where you had to look for the true ending. The endings that finally made it into the game were decoys, like the Monolith in STALKER. With enough assets, you would have seen the true ending, where Shepard saves the day and everyone is happy.
But this ending is missing. I assume it has been scrapped for whatever reason, maybe they needed to get the game out in time.

Wild speculation on my part, but that's my explanation.

[Dance Craze]

FTL travel is only possible if you have the mass effect core that apparently can alter masses of objects to allow them to reach light speed (not possible). Those waves do not have mass effect cores and they appear to be light, light cannot travel faster than itself in any situation I would imagine. Just pointing it out that it would take many years to cover the supposed distance. And I do believe it was for cinematic effect.

[N7xELITE]

If Bioware do not do a new ending it does make me wonder about the future of the mass effect universe. Because if you decide to destroy the reapers then that means all technology gets set back and the relays are destroyed so it would take years to get the universe back on it feet. So if they don't release a new ending then you will have to choose one of the endings that doesn't set the universe back.

[Martukis]

 N00bsauce posted this image about twenty/thirty pages ago:


Remind you of something? See, the color burst seems to originate in the Viper Nebula, the system with the alpha relay, the one destroyed in Arrival. Seems awfully odd to me.

 Also, all endings destroy the relays, as far as I know.

Modifié par Martukis, 29 mars 2012 - 02:35 .

[Jaxitty]

Okay, posted thgis about 15 to 20 pages back. but dropped the ball in elaborating. My second playthrough, I had just finished the Geth virtual reality thinggy-mabob for Legion, came back to the normandy and did my rounds of talking to the crew, hearing their interesting comments on the mission. Got to Joker and what he said here  www.youtube.com/watch made me go...o.O

What if he's right? seriously, the reson you're there is because Reaper code is infesting the server, it's a fact that reaper influence causes indoctrination, could or would Reaper code do the same? What if the whole ending IS bullsh*t because it never happened, it was all a what if imersive virtual reality, would be a be a great way for the respers to keep their Nemisis out of the fight.

Plus, at the end of the VR experience as you're headed to exit, Legion has issues again with comunication, fading in and out via static, about the only clear thing you get is he needs to get you out of there.

[NikolaiShade]

N7xELITE wrote...

If Bioware do not do a new ending it does make me wonder about the future of the mass effect universe. Because if you decide to destroy the reapers then that means all technology gets set back and the relays are destroyed so it would take years to get the universe back on it feet. So if they don't release a new ending then you will have to choose one of the endings that doesn't set the universe back.

Actually the Synthesys ending is even more complicated to implement than the other two for the simple fact that they should do two sets of textures for the whole game, without talking about the implications of the whole Synthesys process.
Either they choose one canonical ending (making the choice in ME3 pointless) or they release a new set of endings....

[njfluffy19]

N7xELITE wrote...

If Bioware do not do a new ending it does make me wonder about the future of the mass effect universe. Because if you decide to destroy the reapers then that means all technology gets set back and the relays are destroyed so it would take years to get the universe back on it feet. So if they don't release a new ending then you will have to choose one of the endings that doesn't set the universe back.

With the ending the way it is now, the relays get blown to bits regardless of whether you pick destroy, synthesis or control. The kid even states they will be destroyed.

I believe that even if they did blow up the relays, they would just do a spin off series a thousand years into the future or into the past. Probably something like they did with Knights of the Old Republic.

On twitter, I forget which account, they stated the Relays "had" to be decimated so organic life could flourish on its own path. That makes sense. The relays blowing up and not destroying all life around them, however, does not. Although, Hackett did claim the key to the Crucible was finding a way to direct the energy solely at Reaper tech, leaving other life untouched.

I don't know. What I do know is that Indoctrination Theory is the most viable solution.

Modifié par njfluffy19, 29 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[njfluffy19]

Jaxitty wrote...

Okay, posted thgis about 15 to 20 pages back. but dropped the ball in elaborating. My second playthrough, I had just finished the Geth virtual reality thinggy-mabob for Legion, came back to the normandy and did my rounds of talking to the crew, hearing their interesting comments on the mission. Got to Joker and what he said here  www.youtube.com/watch made me go...o.O

What if he's right? seriously, the reson you're there is because Reaper code is infesting the server, it's a fact that reaper influence causes indoctrination, could or would Reaper code do the same? What if the whole ending IS bullsh*t because it never happened, it was all a what if imersive virtual reality, would be a be a great way for the respers to keep their Nemisis out of the fight.

Plus, at the end of the VR experience as you're headed to exit, Legion has issues again with comunication, fading in and out via static, about the only clear thing you get is he needs to get you out of there.

I think that was more like "Haha, you're actually in a Video Game, Shepard! Joke's on you!"

Or it could be foreshadowing to the ending being... unreal.

[Mechler]

LadyVakarian wrote...

Mechler wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Mechler wrote...

You people don't understand it. None of you do. The problem with the ending is not that it doesn't make sense. The problem is that it doesn't provide closure for the ones you cared about. Just Shepard(he dies. yes he dies, and he should). I confess, Indoctrination theory makes more sense than the current ending, but it provides FAR LESS CLOSURE. It doesn't show the fate of past squadmates or all the civilizations(like the literal ending). But it also gains a bit more. In case you haven't noticed in the literal interpretation, the reapers are destroyed and the galaxy is safe. If indoctrination theory is true, the Reapers are out there and the release ending basically stops before the final fight. For me that would be a far worse and more infuriating scenario than the current. Even more infuriating. Not a rushed ending, but no ending at all.

Bioware if this was your plan all along, please reconsider at once. Even not doing anything is a lesser evil.

Sorry boys. You made a wonderful job piacing it together, but the theories big failure is a fact.

Duh. You know that the definition of a theory makes it unable to fail?

Also, in case you didn't notice, most of us here are thinking there might be a DLC that will further expand the ending.. providing closure.. and yeah, that can actually work with the indoctrination theory...

Definition? OKay ******, let's talk definitions. like the theory of relativity. Einstein wasn't like: This is probably Bull**** but... So yeah, scientificly, theories can and do fail.

Also you are completely missing the point. the DLC will not be/shouldn't be about exPANDING the ending, but exPLAINING. Or rewriting it altogether. Personally I prefer a story with a confusing ending, than one that ended before any kind of closure. failing at writinng is a flaw. Deliberately not giving closure to csah in on DLC-s is pure evil.

First off, I don't think we need to be calling each other names. <_< If Bioware planned this, than great. We are piecing together parts that would explain the theory. We are not writing it or have any insight of what the writing might be. I appreciate all of the opinions on this thread, but honestly, if you don't like the theory and would rather call names, I wonder why people even decide to post. I completely understand, however, the hesitation. This has never been done and it could be either a great publicity stunt that will put this series at the top OR a total flop that makes gamers angry. So far, if this theory is correct, I think it will be the first of the two. This ending can do both expand and explain if written right. Like I had said in the beginning, we are not the writers, we are simply avid fans who want to make the endings to a FANTASTIC series better for ourselves. There is overwelming evidence to support this theory and I think that intimidates others (not say it intimidates those I quoted). We all need to realise that each and every one of us is a fan and we are disappointed. If you like the IT, great, if you don't, feel free to pass this thread by. We will be happy to take any input in debunking or questioning and we all SHOULD react in a civilized manner to each other. We don't need trolls, on either side of this conversation.  

To lighten the mood, do you like the meme I created? I call it Scumbag Cerberus:




 

Alright. I still think he totally deserved it, because of the underlined part, but you asked too nicely. Something very unnatural in BSN. It's not that I don't like the theory. It makes perfect sense and explains a lot. But I already wrote what it implies mabout bioware's plan and the current state of the Reapers. At it's current stage, it provides less closure than the literal interpretation. That's something you can't deny. I still think the theory is most definitely true, since the lack of bodies and the brushes can't be explained in any other way. If I seems overly zealus is probably because I'm scared that with the new ending stuff Bioware will overdo it and do some rainbows and butterflies ending to bow to the will of some of the worst fangirls. This can only be awoided if only minimal alternations are made. If the current ending is followed by another hald an hour of gamepolay till the definite ending, that certainly is possible. And would also cause huge backlash from the anti-DLC folks. I want the lack of KAsumi romance to be the only negattive part in the end.

[llbountyhunter]

Damn my English teacher can take a Lesson from bioware. Lol

[Stigweird85]

Dance Craze wrote...

FTL travel is only possible if you have the mass effect core that apparently can alter masses of objects to allow them to reach light speed (not possible). Those waves do not have mass effect cores and they appear to be light, light cannot travel faster than itself in any situation I would imagine. Just pointing it out that it would take many years to cover the supposed distance. And I do believe it was for cinematic effect.

There is logic to what you say(light cannot travel faster than itself) However it is Faster Than Light travel so who knows.

The way I see it as the explosions where generated by the relays it could be possible that the resulting shockwave contains elements of the mass effect core and is altering mass as it travels. In theory this would allow light to travel faster than itself.

Also if you take the ending at face value, Joker in the Normandy(which can travel FTL) was unable to outrun it so therefore we can assume that the wave is travelling FTL too

[anmiro]

When I fisrt heard about the indoctrination theory, I just thought people were trying to salvage the bad ending by misinterpretting or reading to much into the final moments of the game; but to my surprise a lot of this makes sense. Indoc theory addresses a few things that I noticed in my play through.

In particular, the scene where Shepard wakes up in the citadel on top of a pile of corpses is a pretty powerful image that I think strongly supports the ID theory. Walking through that hallway of corpses, my first thought was, "is Shepard dead?" It feels so much like a feverish nightmare. The shifting walls of the citadel can be interpretted in two ways; the first is that the citadel is simply reacting to the crucible, the second is that the landscape is changing the same way it would in a dreamscape. The walk down the oddly elongated corridor to a room that is both familiar and yet distorted (This seems like an altered version of where we face Seren at the end of ME1) only to find Anderson and the Illusive Man, symbols for Paragon and Renegade. It is not clear how they got here or where your other two squadmates have dissappeared to, but like all dreams you simply accept it as reallity.

During this confrontation with TIM two things are clear, TIM has been indoctrinated, Anderson has not. TIM does not want to destroy the Reapers, Anderson does. If this is a dream, than Anderson and TIM are not really here, they simply represent two conflicting ideas in Shepard's mind.

My Shepard had a high enough reputation that I was able to convince TIM that he was indoctrinated and that he should shoot himself; the same way that I convinced Saren to shoot himself (in this same place). My initial reaction to this was, "well thats unoriginal," but maybe it's supposed to feel familiar. I think the whole confrontation is supposed to help us realize that we are being indoctrinated and that we need to fight it.

Moveing forward:
In my opinion, the fact that we see Shepard wake up after choosing to destroy the Reapers and that none of the other endings have this result strongly supports ID theory. It means that Shepard has in fact destroyed the Reapers and that they have released control over him.

But if he is waking up, where is he waking up? The Citadel has been destroyed. Does that mean his body is on earth? If Shepard's physical body never left earth how was he interactting with the crucible and what does this mean for the other endings?

I think Idoc theory has a lot of merit, more so than the literal interpretation of the ending, but it still does not address a lot concerns about the ending. Have the mass relays really been destroyed? Where was Joker going? In waht state have you left the Galaxy?

Modifié par anmiro, 29 mars 2012 - 03:22 .

[llbountyhunter]

bigstig wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

FTL travel is only possible if you have the mass effect core that apparently can alter masses of objects to allow them to reach light speed (not possible). Those waves do not have mass effect cores and they appear to be light, light cannot travel faster than itself in any situation I would imagine. Just pointing it out that it would take many years to cover the supposed distance. And I do believe it was for cinematic effect.

There is logic to what you say(light cannot travel faster than itself) However it is Faster Than Light travel so who knows.

The way I see it as the explosions where generated by the relays it could be possible that the resulting shockwave contains elements of the mass effect core and is altering mass as it travels. In theory this would allow light to travel faster than itself.

Also if you take the ending at face value, Joker in the Normandy(which can travel FTL) was unable to outrun it so therefore we can assume that the wave is travelling FTL too

At least the one thing that we can all agree on was that the last ten minutes made no damn sense no matter which way you look at it. (Except for Id)

[llbountyhunter]

anmiro wrote...

When I fisrt heard about the indoctrination theory, I just thought people were trying to salvage the bad ending by misinterpretting or reading to much into the final moments of the game; but to my surprise a lot of this makes sense. Indoc theory addresses a few things that I noticed in my play through.

In particular, the scene where Shepard wakes up in the citadel on top of a pile of corpses is a pretty powerful image that I think strongly supports the ID theory. Walking through that hallway of corpses, my first thought was, "is Shepard dead?" It feels so much like a feverish nightmare. The shifting walls of the citadel can be interpretted in two ways; the first is that the citadel is simply reacting to the crucible, the second is that the landscape is changing the same way it would in a dreamscape. The walk down the oddly elongated corridor to a room that is both familiar and yet distorted (This seems like an altered version of where we face Seren at the end of ME1) only to find Anderson and the Illusive Man, symbols for Paragon and Renegade. It is not clear how they got hear or where your other two squadmates have dissappeared to, but like all dreams you simply accept it as reallity.

During this confrontation with TIM two things are clear, TIM has been indoctrinated, Anderson has not. TIM does not want to destroy the Reapers, Anderson does. If this is a dream, than Anderson and TIM are not really here, they simply represent two conflicting ideas in Shepard's mind.

My Shepard had a high enough reputation that I was able to convince TIM that he was indoctrinated and that he should shoot himself; the same way that I convinced Saren to shoot himself (in this same place). My initial reaction to this was, "well thats unoriginal," but maybe it's supposed to feel familiar. I think the whole confrontation is supposed to help us realize that we are being indoctrinated and that we need to fight it.

Thank you for actually reading through, instead of giving us the whole "oh this just creates more plot holes than it solves" without telling us why or how, or even what plot holes they're talking about.

[Dance Craze]

Referring to me

[NikolaiShade]

anmiro wrote...

When I fisrt heard about the indoctrination theory, I just thought people were trying to salvage the bad ending by misinterpretting or reading to much into the final moments of the game; but to my surprise a lot of this makes sense. Indoc theory addresses a few things that I noticed in my play through.

In particular, the scene where Shepard wakes up in the citadel on top of a pile of corpses is a pretty powerful image that I think strongly supports the ID theory. Walking through that hallway of corpses, my first thought was, "is Shepard dead?" It feels so much like a feverish nightmare. The shifting walls of the citadel can be interpretted in two ways; the first is that the citadel is simply reacting to the crucible, the second is that the landscape is changing the same way it would in a dreamscape. The walk down the oddly elongated corridor to a room that is both familiar and yet distorted (This seems like an altered version of where we face Seren at the end of ME1) only to find Anderson and the Illusive Man, symbols for Paragon and Renegade. It is not clear how they got hear or where your other two squadmates have dissappeared to, but like all dreams you simply accept it as reallity.

During this confrontation with TIM two things are clear, TIM has been indoctrinated, Anderson has not. TIM does not want to destroy the Reapers, Anderson does. If this is a dream, than Anderson and TIM are not really here, they simply represent two conflicting ideas in Shepard's mind.

My Shepard had a high enough reputation that I was able to convince TIM that he was indoctrinated and that he should shoot himself; the same way that I convinced Saren to shoot himself (in this same place). My initial reaction to this was, "well thats unoriginal," but maybe it's supposed to feel familiar. I think the whole confrontation is supposed to help us realize that we are being indoctrinated and that we need to fight it.

About the Citadel walls, they are shifting before the Crucible is in position (the Crucible is put in position only after you deal with TIM and open the wards).

Modifié par NikolaiShade, 29 mars 2012 - 03:08 .

[Vox Draco]

Martukis wrote...

 N00bsauce posted this image about twenty/thirty pages ago:


Remind you of something? See, the color burst seems to originate in the Viper Nebula, the system with the alpha relay, the one destroyed in Arrival. Seems awfully odd to me.

 Also, all endings destroy the relays, as far as I know.

Damn...the Riddler made that picture, didn't he? It looks somehow like a qestionmark!

I'm getting too involved in this, I'm afraid...

[NikolaiShade]

Sorry, double post

Modifié par NikolaiShade, 29 mars 2012 - 03:07 .

[llbountyhunter]

Vox Draco wrote...

Martukis wrote...

 N00bsauce posted this image about twenty/thirty pages ago:


Remind you of something? See, the color burst seems to originate in the Viper Nebula, the system with the alpha relay, the one destroyed in Arrival. Seems awfully odd to me.

 Also, all endings destroy the relays, as far as I know.

Damn...the Riddler made that picture, didn't he? It looks somehow like a qestionmark!

I'm getting too involved in this, I'm afraid...

Damn it, all these clues are making my brain hurt.

[BeerQueen79]

Apologies if this has already been pointed out, there's already been a ton written on this subject, but I also believe IDT is the truth for the ending. After the mission where Miranda's father is killed, I talked with Joker and EDI. It's possible this conversation could occur earlier, it just didn't for me. Anyway, I noted the following. 1) Joker makes a comment regarding ITM's "creepy" eyes. Knowing how the theory of changing eyes flows into ITD, perhaps this was a hint from Bioware "just in case you missed it, pay attention to the eyes." I'm also curious of why Joker would make that comment because I'm not even sure he has ever met TIM - but I certainly could be wrong in that regard.

Also, more importantly, in the conversation with EDI she states that she would rather cease to exist than be reprogrammed by the reapers, which she sees as the inevitable consequence of her capture by the reapers. She's in effect giving you "permission" to choose destroy. There is a whole conversation that sometimes merely "surviving" is not the best possible option, and she says she's going to modify some of her preservation codes. She also says something to the effect that continuation of organic life is more important than AI life. Wish I had written that part down. Anyway, it really struck me last night as I was playing because I know one of the biggest downers about choosing destroy was the destruction of the Geth/EDI element. But if it's all not real, and just part of IDT, the reapers are just playing on your emotions not to destroy them because destroying them also destroys your friends.

[MasterDracoStoc]

Have I missed anything important since page 993?