57139 réponses à ce sujet

[TheGoddess0fWar]

I've always wondered about that kid no one but Shepard acknowledges/interacts with him.

[mupp3tz]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

-snip-

Shepard was exposed, but not consistently enough where he was indoctrinated in the fashion that Saren, Benezia, and TIM are. The effects were still there, but Shepard's will to continue to resist them kept them at bay up until the end, when Harbinger go tthe opening it needed.

Pure speculation but take it as you will.

Although I still lean more towards the end as the first attempt at true indoctrination, I appreciate your response!  I think my major ilk is the argument that the child is actually an instrument of indoctrination from the get go.  I don't buy it, but we're all working towards the same goal here.. so cheers!

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 11 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[lookingglassmind]

FugitiveMind wrote...

Um, wow... this was around 40 pages when I went to bed last night....

Soooooo...

What'd i miss in the last 60 pages? Anything new??
I'd read it all, but by the time I caught up I'd have just as much to read...

We got noticed by the ME3 twitter feed. Someone from the BSN sent a link to the Player Indoctrination Theory that has been developed, and they seemed interested/surprised.

That's only one small thing, though. Lots of other ideas have been talked about. Byne's been updating the front page.

[Dessalines]

There are obvious in Shepard's mind. Why would he look like the kid? I am not sure if it was really bad writing, or was it a dream. I just don't know.

[BlackDragonBane]

lavosslayer wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...


i'm not a fan of this theory, since it suggests that Shepard has been indoctrinated either before the start of ME3 or throughout the entire game -- but HOW?  You can say that there is a secret indoctrination device on the Normandy, his implants, etc. etc.  But I personally don't find that compelling.

The indoctrination could have started as early as Vrimire. Sovereign was present at the base, since Saren was using it to research the effects of indoctrination on the Salarians he had captured. You also talk to Sovereign via the platform on the beacon and I think no matter where the Reaper is, you can still be indoctrinated just by hear its voice.

At the end, Shepard is once again in proximity of Sovereign while fighting Saren, being further exposed to the effects of the indoctrination signal. Then Shepard spends two years dead and being rebuilt, with the inclusion of cybernetics for parts that couldn't be regrown or repaired. The next time Shepard is anywhere near a Reaper is the derelict Reaper you go to and the logs of the Cerebrus team that had been there proves that even the derelict Reaper was still emitting an indoctrination signal, further exposing Shepard.

Shepard was exposed, but not consistently enough where he was indoctrinated in the fashion that Saren, Benezia, and TIM are. The effects were still there, but Shepard's will to continue to resist them kept them at bay up until the end, when Harbinger go tthe opening it needed.

Pure speculation but take it as you will.

As stated earlier, Shepard is in direct contact with Harbinger via Object Rho in the Arrival DLC in ME2 which is where his first contact with true indoctrination begins...while not everyone played Arrival it is still considered part of the official storyline of Commander Shepard.

I thought it's assumed if you import a Shepard that did not play Arrival, another team took Shepard's place.

[themidz]

holyshock18 wrote...

themidz wrote...

ot can please somebody explain to me how did TIM controlled shepard and anderson? thanks

Well if we go with the Indoctrination theory. Then its not Tim controling him. Then its simply a batle with Harbringer in his mind. And Tim is the first test Shepard have to overcome to break free of Harbringers Will

yes, this one i get, but if we assume that we are wrong, how did he do that?

[Turtlicious]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

-snip-

Shepard was exposed, but not consistently enough where he was indoctrinated in the fashion that Saren, Benezia, and TIM are. The effects were still there, but Shepard's will to continue to resist them kept them at bay up until the end, when Harbinger go tthe opening it needed.

Pure speculation but take it as you will.

Although I still lean more towards the end as the first attempt at true indoctrination, I appreciate your response!  I think my major ilk is the argument that the child is actually an instrument of indoctrination from the get go.  I don't buy it, but we're all working towards the same goal here.. so cheers!

I'm moving to agree with you, but maybe, it started on the ship with the dreams. I can imagine that Shepard's indoctrination was dormant. hidden away until an appropriate time. Hence Vega hearing the hum, and Shepard's dreams. The child was in fact, real up until the shuttle.

[Little Lummo]

Wasn't Saren able to be controlled because he had implants etc in him that allowed the reapers to gradually gain more control? Shepard has implants aswell from Cerberus, and we've all seen what Cerberus have been turned into, so whats to stop it eventually affecting Shepard because we never learned where Cerberus got the implants(did we?). Perhaps they thought they had control at the end, tried to make you choose the worst decision so you die and they don't, but they underestimated Shepard. I realise this is basically what everybody else is saying, but just a thought!

[lookingglassmind]

lavosslayer wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...


i'm not a fan of this theory, since it suggests that Shepard has been indoctrinated either before the start of ME3 or throughout the entire game -- but HOW?  You can say that there is a secret indoctrination device on the Normandy, his implants, etc. etc.  But I personally don't find that compelling.

The indoctrination could have started as early as Vrimire. Sovereign was present at the base, since Saren was using it to research the effects of indoctrination on the Salarians he had captured. You also talk to Sovereign via the platform on the beacon and I think no matter where the Reaper is, you can still be indoctrinated just by hear its voice.

At the end, Shepard is once again in proximity of Sovereign while fighting Saren, being further exposed to the effects of the indoctrination signal. Then Shepard spends two years dead and being rebuilt, with the inclusion of cybernetics for parts that couldn't be regrown or repaired. The next time Shepard is anywhere near a Reaper is the derelict Reaper you go to and the logs of the Cerebrus team that had been there proves that even the derelict Reaper was still emitting an indoctrination signal, further exposing Shepard.

Shepard was exposed, but not consistently enough where he was indoctrinated in the fashion that Saren, Benezia, and TIM are. The effects were still there, but Shepard's will to continue to resist them kept them at bay up until the end, when Harbinger go tthe opening it needed.

Pure speculation but take it as you will.

As stated earlier, Shepard is in direct contact with Harbinger via Object Rho in the Arrival DLC in ME2 which is where his first contact with true indoctrination begins...while not everyone played Arrival it is still considered part of the official storyline of Commander Shepard.

lavosslayer wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

I don't know why people think synthesis is the best option because you are imposing the reapers "order" on organics lets not forget that the synthesis does not effect the reapers themselves because they are already part organic and part synthetic. Plus with that ending you lose what makes the geth, geth you lost what makes the asari a asari. Stuff
like that.

So my renegade shepard went for destory since I consider that the middle finger to the gurdian reasoning plus he pretty much says that ending will kill you yet thats the only ending you can survive in. 

I agree I know I"ve stated this several times already (although it seemed to go without response) but synthesis is basically making the galaxy into a bunch of collectors for the next cycle...just remember what mordin said about the collector body he was examining...that is maintained its organic shell but everyhing else was replaced with tech...seems to me that that's truly what synthesis would do...

Here we are.

humes spork wrote...

Two things bug me.

...I
keep going back to what the AI on the Citadel way back early in ME1 said, it's the role of organics to dominate and destroy synthetic life. That pretty well perfectly mirrors what goes on in the  game's conclusion and supports the whole "tech singularity" thing. Especially from the synthetics' point of view, which the game goes out of its way to emphasize beginning with Legion in ME2 and pounds over the player's head during 3 between the quarian/geth conflict and EDI. Especially in light that Legion reminds you the quarians started their wars, the geth were merely defending themselves and actually stayed their hand from destroying the quarians (as the geth couldn't
predictthe implication of such an act), and most importantly the quarian/geth conflict was simultaneously a civil war between pro- and anti-geth quarians.

And, add in the context that in Control, Shepard doesn't try to force the Reapers to serve organics (as was TIM's plan
and consistent with the theme of organics dominating synthetics). Shepard just sends them away, while  simultaneously unshackling them from the Catalyst which is implied to be their control mechanism. I
think the sequence is Harbinger frakking with Shepard's head, but I don't think it may be to Indoctrinate Shepard. Especially in the context it's wholly out of character for Harbinger to simply leave before confirming Shepard's death or harvesting him/her. I'm wondering if Harbinger is testing Shepard's resolve and actually determining whether
technological singularity is an inevitability, and organics have evolved beyond the desire to dominate or destroy
synthetics. If Shepard's willing to give up his or her own life to send the Reapers away without forcing them into submission to organics, or merge synthetic and human life, it would certainly give evidence technological singularity is not inevitable.

This is the basis of my argument that Synthesis may be the 'best' Paragon/Order option.

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 11 mars 2012 - 09:45 .

[lavosslayer]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...


i'm not a fan of this theory, since it suggests that Shepard has been indoctrinated either before the start of ME3 or throughout the entire game -- but HOW?  You can say that there is a secret indoctrination device on the Normandy, his implants, etc. etc.  But I personally don't find that compelling.

The indoctrination could have started as early as Vrimire. Sovereign was present at the base, since Saren was using it to research the effects of indoctrination on the Salarians he had captured. You also talk to Sovereign via the platform on the beacon and I think no matter where the Reaper is, you can still be indoctrinated just by hear its voice.

At the end, Shepard is once again in proximity of Sovereign while fighting Saren, being further exposed to the effects of the indoctrination signal. Then Shepard spends two years dead and being rebuilt, with the inclusion of cybernetics for parts that couldn't be regrown or repaired. The next time Shepard is anywhere near a Reaper is the derelict Reaper you go to and the logs of the Cerebrus team that had been there proves that even the derelict Reaper was still emitting an indoctrination signal, further exposing Shepard.

Shepard was exposed, but not consistently enough where he was indoctrinated in the fashion that Saren, Benezia, and TIM are. The effects were still there, but Shepard's will to continue to resist them kept them at bay up until the end, when Harbinger go tthe opening it needed.

Pure speculation but take it as you will.

As stated earlier, Shepard is in direct contact with Harbinger via Object Rho in the Arrival DLC in ME2 which is where his first contact with true indoctrination begins...while not everyone played Arrival it is still considered part of the official storyline of Commander Shepard.

I thought it's assumed if you import a Shepard that did not play Arrival, another team took Shepard's place.

yes its assumed by the game but it is still part of the official shepard story...just like anderson being on earth instead of the citadel if you picked him as the council member. It happened regardless because Udina is the official storyline's council member

[Dessalines]

Also the kid looks directedly at Shepard, and I may be wrong, but no one is like helping get the kid aboard the ship either. i think i remember seeing other people get help.

[mupp3tz]

It's not surprising that no one saw the child because he was frightened and scurryng away in the vent. Is it logical? Yes, he's a child.. they're hard to predict. He could just as well have jumped out to Shepard's arms, but that's not the direction the writers took. There's so many people running for safety during the attack that it's not surprising that no one notices the one child. Shepard pays particular attention to him because he saw him playing outside, fails to save him by the vent, and sees him being (momentarily) rescued.

[RussianOrc]

http://social.biowar...5/index/9769678
thats quite unsettling......

[Bigdoser]

As I keep saying one of the meanings of crucible means severe test or trial if the theory is true this is shepard's trial to overcome the indoctrination does shepard compromise with the reapers? AKA synthesis and control or does shepard stick to the original goal? Heck renegade shepard says in one of the intimidate lines with TIM that comprising or working with the reapers will get you indoctrinated. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 11 mars 2012 - 09:48 .

[Turtlicious]

Plioz wrote...

I cant post on the mass effect forums because I dont personally own ME3... however, would you be able to share something with the forum for me please in the "is the ending a dream/indocrination thread"

Im not 100% sure what relevence what I am about to say has to 1m1 speculation but... from my studies I learned that.

Enzymes Whose kcatalyst /Km Approaches the Diffusion-Controlled Rate of Association with Substrate have the units in -1m1

If we think of the reaper cycle as a biological reaction...
Shepeard is the substrate and the reapers are the enzyme. The substrate breaks down the enzyme... however sometimes we need a CATALYST.

Now in regards to what I said above about -1m1. This basicaly means the catalyst CONTROLS the reaction and substrate. Perhaps sheapard is the substrate (which breaks down the enzyme i.e destroys reapers) and the catalyst ( the boy ) is trying to control him at the end. The catalyst is never used up in the reaction perhaps that is why he seems to have been around since the beggining and without the catalyst there is no reaction.

I have no idea where I am gonig with this and I must be smoking too much D:

Preliatus wrote... Liara but with white-greyish skin like Relia on the Ardat-Yakshi monastery colony world.

And I did notice Anderson disappearing. So.. this concludes with Shepard rushing ahead without his/her squad members, and with Anderson staying behind in tow. Unless Shepard led the rush and everyone was behind him/her.

Quoted for the people who borrowed the game.

[Berkilak]

I don't believe Shepard was indoctrinated.

I just think he was knocked unconscious by Harbinger (as we see him awaken with concrete rubble around him: more likely London than the Citadel), and his final dream was merely the culmination of the previous dreams.

The kid was there as a representation of the futility Shepard was feeling as he was unable to save him. And having the entire room set up as a dialogue wheel (complete with red and blue) represents all the decisions he had made up to that point. His fear of separation is shown with the Normandy's crew being stranded. And his belief that he will become a legend, for good or for ill, is shown with the old man and the child.

And this complete disconnect from reality becomes connected once again when Shepard wakes up.

[kyrieee]

Don't all the dream sequences end with a reaper noise?
And there are whispers in all of them

[Evindell]

I don't support the theory that the child was never real. I think he existed on Earth, each time you saw him (in the yard under your window, in the air duct, even getting into the shuttle). His death obviously has a profound effect on Shepard. And the Catalyst takes advantage of this.

That "growling" sound is just as likely to come from the Reapers just outside the windows.

For the queston "why is Shepard's indoctrination so prevalent all of a sudden?" It must be remembered that Shepard just got blasted in the face by Harbringer. He/she is at the physical and mental limits. Their fight to remain free of influence is severely crippled.

[BlackDragonBane]

Little Lummo wrote...

Wasn't Saren able to be controlled because he had implants etc in him that allowed the reapers to gradually gain more control? Shepard has implants aswell from Cerberus, and we've all seen what Cerberus have been turned into, so whats to stop it eventually affecting Shepard because we never learned where Cerberus got the implants(did we?). Perhaps they thought they had control at the end, tried to make you choose the worst decision so you die and they don't, but they underestimated Shepard. I realise this is basically what everybody else is saying, but just a thought!

I think the only 'saving grace' that keeps Shepard from being another Saren was during that time, the Illusive Man actually had his head on straight and he had explicit desires that nothing about Shepard be changed. The synthetic parts were added because some parts of the body just couldn't be fully repaired or regrown. I would think implanting Reaper parts would have been risk to the Illusive Man's goals but who's to say he didn't?

After all, Miranda wanted to put a control chip in Shepard's head from the get go.

[MissMaster_2]

Ainyan42 wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

Watching the YouTube video -- someone posted this in the comments:

I have very carefully read all the smart ideas on the forum, but i am temped to disagree with this statement

-The child does not actually exist. He is an attempt to indoctrinate Shepard. Nobody but Shepard ever sees or interacts with the child.

This is a basis of your theory, but.. in the game you go to the 'Dock' level, turn right and you will see "Missing persons" poster with that child picture on it.

TheMbovane

Can anyone confirm/disconfirm this? Also, not sure it really matters. The kid probably died in the assault, but the child that Shepard sees in the duct (and every time henceforth) is the Catalyst.

If the kid in the duct is the Catalyst, then that as a very heart breaking piece of foreshadowing because it came true.. my only problem is why chose the form a child who has no real connection to Shepard aside from the brief scene where Shepard sees the child playing from their window?

This has been explained by the community in this thread. I will attempt to sum it up.

We propose that this child was chosen because of its universal applicability as an archetype for hope and survival of mankind. To most people, a child would be an obvious symbol of these meanings. The catalyst chooses this as a direct manipulation attempt -- appealing at Shepard's basic, most primal emotions about his species. Invoking an image that represents hope, and that must be protected at all costs -- a small human child.

You know, a child makes even more sense with the extended conversation from Anderson. He goes on about having a family and raising children, and tells Shepard (s)he would be a good parent. Wouldn't that stick in Shepard's head as one of the last things she heard from the man who had been her mentor - her father - through the entire series?

I want to touch on this for a moment. Please not I'm not trying to be sexist with this but let me explain.

Okay this is another reason why I think it has to be indoctrination because the visions of that little brat discounts the renegade attitude and it discounts male and female Shepard. The dreams of the kid are straight across. The Ruthless Shepard got their whole team killed but one little kid effects them to the point of dreams.

I can see the dreams (if not indoctrination) happening to a female Shepard more then male. Let me explain. FemShep is 31 years old she is at the age to have children her biological clock is ticking, and in general women react more strong to a child being hurt or a child dying then a man would- its the 'mother instinct'

I really don't see these dreams coming from a male Shepard if its not indoctrination...the dreams are straight cross the board from Earth Born's to Paragon's.

My Shepard is a Earthborn, Ruthless, Renegade and when I first saw that dream I thought "She really would not give a rats ass about that little kid." I don't mean to sound cold but its true....and that is when I thought it had to be indoctrination.

Don't kill me. >.>

[Auresta]

Idk if anyone mentioned this already,but my BF pointed out that when you kill the TIM and right after Anderson dies, Shepard is holding his/her hand to his/her torso, which is bleeding from what appears to be a gunshot wound.

Shepard was forced to shoot Anderson at the torso on his left side, which is where Shepard is holding his/her torso. I know that before you go up the conduit, a Marauder shoots you but the shot grazes/hits your shoulder, not your torso.

[lookingglassmind]

Berkilak wrote...

I don't believe Shepard was indoctrinated.

I just think he was knocked unconscious by Harbinger (as we see him awaken with concrete rubble around him: more likely London than the Citadel), and his final dream was merely the culmination of the previous dreams.

The kid was there as a representation of the futility Shepard was feeling as he was unable to save him. And having the entire room set up as a dialogue wheel (complete with red and blue) represents all the decisions he had made up to that point. His fear of separation is shown with the Normandy's crew being stranded. And his belief that he will become a legend, for good or for ill, is shown with the old man and the child.

And this complete disconnect from reality becomes connected once again when Shepard wakes up.

Agree. I don't think Shepard was indoctrinated, either. But I think Harbinger is trying, throughout the game, to indoctrinate him/her. And is trying really hard in the last scene.

It's up to the player to decide if Shepard is indoctrinated or not.

[holyshock18]

Evil_medved wrote...

holyshock18 wrote...

themidz wrote...

ot can please somebody explain to me how did TIM controlled shepard and anderson? thanks

Well if we go with the Indoctrination theory. Then its not Tim controling him. Then its simply a batle with Harbringer in his mind. And Tim is the first test Shepard have to overcome to break free of Harbringers Will

Imagine that next dlc will be about Harbringer attempts to break Shepards will in abstract dream world. Something like original Alan Wake dlc.

Rofl. Nah my point being That we win over him if we choose destroy. If we choose the other we get fully indoctrinated. And how they wanna do that with dlc i dont know

[Hellfire257]

I'm also curious about the things from that CGI trailers that we did not see in the game at all. IRRC, we saw the Normandy escorted by Turian frigates and a couple of Alliance dreadnoughts in atmospheric flight, presumably as part of a strike package against something. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at no point in the story did such a thing occur. Then there is the complete absence of the Firewalker tank.

Here's one for you as well, are Reaper troops synthetic life? Would the blast from the "destroy" ending kill them all? Maybe there's a galaxy wide clean-up operation yet to happen!

[mupp3tz]

kyrieee wrote...

Don't all the dream sequences end with a reaper noise?
And there are whispers in all of them

I think it's because Shepard knows that the thing that he's come to fear the most is actually here and that the confrontation is inevitable.  The Reapers are the obvious antagonist, so of course they act as something that causes extreme stress in Shepard causing him to startle awake.  It's like when you have a bad dream about killer clowns and wake up only when something scary happens -- i.e. the clown grabbing you.  I don't think that necessarily means that the child is an indoctrination tool, until Shepard encounters him at the end.