57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Thomas Shepard]

@noobsauce I believe that if you make a rational argument you can get a lot more done than when you go around in circles like we did for the last I don't know how many pages. Plus if I felt so disappointed by the ending I would hope that the great fans on this network would help me out.

PS I have an application exam in chemistry on Saturday, so I'm sorry if I am being too glib.

[BleedingUranium]

Thomas Shepard wrote...
5. The "too difficult for the average player to grasp" reason is kind of weird for me. It's like saying that they shouldn't make movies like Inception, Shutter Island, Revolver etc. because people might not get them. I think that this type of movies and game is meant to engage you and make you think about the story and the characters in depth to understand things such as symbolism and so on.

I wish more games and movies were like this. Seriously, people nowadays expect to play a game or watch a movie and not do any critical thinking, or, sometimes, any thinking at all. Things should be complex and you should have to pay attention to understand what's happening.

[AlianceN7Marine]

One of the most interesting things I've just found out about the Indoctrination Theory is that if you choose "Control" or "Synthesis" you see Shepards eyes look exactly the same as the Illusive mans but if you choose the "Destroy" then Shepards eyes are normal. From What we've been led to belive the Illusive Man is Indoctrinated and has been for years.

[Abram730]

bigstig wrote...

Derp88 wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

Gernbuster wrote...

I think, ME would evolve to a Sci-Fi universe with even more space magic. And I really hate this idea. On the other hand a ME strategie game might be interesting. I would advice Bioware to take the concept of "sins of a solar empire" or "supreme commander" maybe a "battlefront" would be awsome, too.

Strategy game sounds like a good idea, but Bioware are not known for making strategy games. Why would they go in that direction if their team is tailored to making RPGs with rich stories? It wouldn't be a good game simply because thry have no experience making strategy games.

Remember that a new "Bioware" studio was annouced recently to work on an RTS, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that an RTS in the mass effect universe is a possibility. Although I think this would be more of a spin off rather than the main franchise release

Command & Conquer: Generals 2
www.joystiq.com/2011/12/10/bioware-announces-command-and-conquer-generals-2/

[Tairram]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Spiderman_2028 wrote...

First up, I have to admit to being a PS3 jockey, and I've yet to play through ME1. I completed Me2 and finished ME3 a week ago. I avoided all reports regarding the ending until I reached it and experienced it myself.

This is long, and very Meta, and I know most will deride it/me, because at face value, it's weird and a bit silly, and uncomfortable. But please bear with it. It's what Garrus would do...

As I went through my ending, More and more things started standing out as weird, as not fitting with my experiences prior... The main thing I remember smashing me in the brain was when Anderson says "Listen to yourself man! You're indoctrinated!" - it never occurred to me he was talking to TIM- I assumed he was talking to Shep... But then I figured that was stupid, and maybe the ending WAS terrible, like all those headlines I'd avoided had suggested...

Then comes Space-Child and the Space Magic (I went with synthesis- seemed like the lesser of three evils... Didn't want to kill the Geth)... The ending cinematics... And when it was all over, I admit, I muttered "WTF?"

I started obsessing over the articles I'd avoided- and reading the 'ending sucks' press and op-Ed's, I began thinking that no-one, especially BIOWARE could be THAT incompetent. I played KOTOR- bought an Xbox (first one) just to play it... How could the bunch that gave me the Revan reveal do such a crap job? There had to be more to it- the arguments I read for this ending being all there was didn't add up. I felt like I'd missed something. A word that was commonly used was 'incomplete' in relation to the game. "Bioware sold me an incomplete game! Wahhhh!" and so on...

I thought alot about that word, and about why so many people felt betrayed, and why the ending of the game left a lot to be desired. Like... Everything. The game finished, so it was complete in a sense, but SOMETHING was definitely missing. Everything I saw, from the synthesis wave (Surfs up), Normandy fleeing, destruction of the Mass Relays, tarzan-World... Why would anyone introduce so much poorly extrapolated garbage and leave it at that?

Needless to say i found this thread... I noticed a lot of people asking why you cant question the Space-Child. I realized that once you 'Ascend the space-magic floaty platform of destiny', Shep had very little emotion. He goes from yelling at TIM, desperately trying to fix the whole mess, to acting a little like a zombie. He takes everything at face-value, accepts the explanations and consequences, no problem. Where was the heart? Where was the rage? Where was the questioning?

Then it hit me. 

The missing piece of the puzzle could, in fact, be YOU.

Why doesn't Shep argue with the space-kid? Why does he just clarify what he's being told? Why isn't he pointing and yelling or SOMETHING? Why doesn't he ask the most obvious question- "WHAT THE ---- is going on?!?!"

I think it's because that's what YOU, as the player, are meant to be doing. I think that the scene is a reaper-induced hallucination, taking place in Shep's mind, as per the Indoctrination Theory. I dont think that the intention is limited to in-game. The effect (the Mass Effect?), as I suspect it was intended, is that the Reaper influence has left the game, and expanded further, and outwards, to you. The characteristics and behaviors you, as the player have come to expect from Shep during your journey, are made 'Real' by their on screen lack- Shep is like a Zombie, being spoon-fed info and swallowing every bit of it,. Why isn't he conflicted? Why isnt he outraged like he was at the Collector base? Why doesn't he ask the obvious question - "Is there another way, because this sucks!" im starting to think that Shep doesn't do it, because Bioware wanted YOU doing it instead.

You aren't just a passive observer- you play a real role in those scenes. You listen to the dialogue, you choose responses, but the words aren't what you would expect from Shep. Unless you are completely disconnected from the experience of playing through the game (bearing in mind a lot of emphasis was placed on immersion in the build-up to release), your mind is flipping out, trying to make sense of what you are seeing. Stopping a murder was a renegade act downstairs (TIM Shooting Anderson), which I questioned in my mind at the time. Every question I asked myself during those scenes, every thought that ran through my mind, I think may have been Bioware REALLY putting me in Shepards shoes. Looking back, and applying IT to my experiences, a part of me suspects that Bioware had me play that scene as Shep's "true-self", desperately trying to fight off Harby's mind-rape.

I'm not saying this is fact- its a vibe I'm picking up on. And with IT applied, it not only makes some sense of the endings "from a certain point of view", but makes some sense of the back-lash from players, as well.

*IF* something like this was Bioware's intention (Let's call it the Meta-Indoctrination-Theory, or MIT), Peoples resistance to possible alternative explanations of the last 10 minutes have a whole new flavor.

The anger could come from people physically resisting the manipulation Bioware is attempting. A flight or fight response to outside stimuli that the player has encountered. Our psychologically-knowledgable friends may be able to expand more on the ins and outs of that, but I know that when people encounter things they don't understand, or understand on some level but don't completely comprehend it, anger is a common result. That's not saying some people aren't as smart as others or that dumb people don't get it- I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm saying that some reactions are a completely natural response to being manipulated or positioned in subtle ways- and  a stimulus can be developed/constructed/presented in a way to INDUCE that response. 

Bioware may be a week away from pulling off one of the most expensive and effective social behavior experiments of all time.

Again- I'm not saying IT is fact, or that my take on it is definitive. Not by a long shot. Bioware hold all the cards, and will offer their explanation in the near future, which I'm looking forward to, for good or Ill. 

What I am saying that what I was left with post-game was a feeling I'd missed something, because of all the holes and non-sensical things I'd heard and seen. IT, or most aspects of it, offers a possible explanation for those gaps, and im enjoying exploring the possibilities. MIT takes it further, and suggests Bioware's attempt was to immerse the player to a greater degree than anyone has attempted before.

Am I right? Probably not. But the thought is interesting...

I reeeeaaaaaallllllly like this, never thought about it like that before

If they are thinking about this ( this was suggested before and u explained here in a great way) , this game will be more awesome. But we have a big if...  I agree with your thinking u post. This game is making us thinking about. And this is great. The interaction,  all the talks about, the moviments about this... is ****ing great.

But of course all our thought is hoping for something beyond. Maybe next weeks^~

I hope for answesr and what they promisse for us and not just a empty ending. If this is a experiment and what they promisse, maybe they are waiting... could be awesome. 

I cant lose the hope because me was a great franchise ,i will never forget. I cant accept a empty and bad writing. However maybe a IT end + dlc or something they thought + dlc. This could be another history o/

Hold the line ^~

Modifié par Tairram, 29 mars 2012 - 11:04 .

[khankar]

something else i noticed is that no one in the game seems to care about what happened to people already on the citadel.

you just get told that the reapers have taken control of the citadel but no one asks about the hundred's of thousands of people living there...especially if all the refugees were at the station. what happened to them?

were they evacuated before the reapers arrived? did i miss a dialogue or is this another plot hole?

Modifié par khankar, 29 mars 2012 - 10:59 .

[Thomas Shepard]

@AlianceN7Marine Pretty much my favourite argument as well, since it's an actual texture that is added for a specific purpose.

[AlianceN7Marine]

khankar wrote...

something else i noticed is that no one in the game seems to care about what happened to people already on the citadel.

you just get told that the reapers have taken control of the citadel but no one asks about the hundred's of thousands of people living there...especially if all the refugees were at the station. what happened to them?

were they evacuated before the reapers arrived? did i miss a dialogue of is this another plot hole?

I've been thinking the same thing. What was the point of doing the CDF (Citadel Defense Force) Missions if it only effects the the war assets score. In my play though I have Ashley as LI and her sisters is on the Citidel + Kelly Cambers is there as well. Did they die or if the IDT is true then when we wake up there is a whole new mission set on the citidel. We know from ME1 that the citadel control room is in the council chambers of the citadel tower not some never before seem room.

Thomas Shepard wrote...

@AlianceN7Marine Pretty much my favourite argument as well, since it's an actual texture that is added for a specific purpose.

 
I know.
I get the feeling that this was Biowares plan all along but they underestimated how much fans would, at first take the endings at face value and not see all the subtle hints they put in place. With PAX East set just after a month from the releasse of ME3 it would be a perfect PR platform to release the True ending.

I've just completed another complete play through. My 8th to be truthful. Is it me or the scene with Joker at the Normandys controls as he is trying to outrun the shockwave, if you look at Jokers face the level of detail looks from ME2 level of graphics not ME3.

Modifié par AlianceN7Marine, 29 mars 2012 - 11:15 .

[waldstr18]

thomas, you are killing me, you know that?

1. actually what i was refering to with right ending, was the one that breaks the indoctrination. which is, as far as i have read in here, the red one, in which the child doesnt smile but disappears.

2. ok? there is still only the red option at the end in my scenario. so you are saying that i, as the player, have to know ... ohh i see. but that still doesnt explain why i only get the right option if i havent played enough.

3. so you invalidate the counter argument. shiny. so my "only the red ending" theory still stands. if its all in shepards mind, why would shepard only give himself then (?) the right option if i havent played enough of the game?

4. i dont think they could have anticipated that much of an outbreak. its like racoon city out there. but otherwise a fine argument.

5. that one we already had. and what i said: once you left the theater you knew what was going on in the movie. side note: havent seen revolver. shutter island i stopped watching after the first few minutes. so i can only talk about inception, in which you didnt know if it was a dream or not, but you knew the question - in me3 you had to be sherlock (awesome series by the way).

and dont be so nice! you are ruining my in your face moment. be more angy! so i can feel good about myself when im finally able to tell you: you are all full of it!

[waldstr18]

@thomas shepard: what are you studying?

[Sire Styx]

For the people who think you are getting penalised for having a greater EMS:

sirestyx.bravehost.com/ending.png

I made a quick table for what I think I know. Regardless of whether the ending was IT and so not real, from what we know, greater EMS gives the earth better chances of survial.

You may unlock other endings, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are good ones. You need to have a high EMS and pick the correct ending (or so IT says). You aren't forced to pick synthesis or control and, infact, it's been suggested in this thread that the other endings are reaper tricks. It's a bit meta, in that it plays on the fact that, over the course of the games, the player learns to associate blue as paragon and red as renegade, and over the course of many (other games) associates EMS, points, score values etc as a means for unlocking additional better content.

[Either.Ardrey]

Thomas Shepard wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

it all has been discussed to death already.

the cliffnotes:
me:
possiblity of only red ending (which is the right one in idt)
you:
not enough time for indoctrination (play time)
reaper lost interest, but started it anyway to keep shepard occupied.

and the one from grey something, that it can work with all 3 answer, which i still havent completely read. but what ive read so far i can recomment, its quite interesting.

oh, and i also listed some business reasons, like unfinished game or making it too difficult for the average player to grasp. also the things they replied to the retakers.

by the way. the three kinds of cupcake thing was also trolling. right?

edited it twice already.. i should really proof read my stuff

Let me take a swing

1. I think that the whole point of the IT is that the final sequence of the game is an inner battle with the Reapers' indoctrination. There isn't much action. Instead the entire sequence revolves around the dialogue. That to me seems to be more of a logical problem. The red options aren't really meant to be Paragon or Renegade, but rather aggressive or passive. If you resist at every turn, it's actually more likely to see Shepard take a breath (with  Renegade interrupting TIM, the Breath Scene requires 4000 EMS, while without the interrupt - 5000 EMS).

2. I don't think that the argument is that there was not enough time to properly finish the game with indoctrination. It's rather that the point was to  indoctrinate the player as well as the character.

3. Indoctrination is a signal that is constantly being emitted by the Reapers, if you don't mind checking your codecs. Even when inactive the derelict one was still creating husks out of people. The signal influences the lymbic system and makes the subject submissive, but the exact process of submission actually takes part in the subject's mind.

4. I think that the whole discussion that has gone viral all over the Internet and the 75+ perfect scores are pretty much a PR campaign better than the one even Jesus had. I want to see me some sales figures, but I think that the decision was actually great business wise. So much free advertising is a very rare thing.

5. The "too difficult for the average player to grasp" reason is kind of weird for me. It's like saying that they shouldn't make movies like Inception, Shutter Island, Revolver etc. because people might not get them. I think that this type of movies and game is meant to engage you and make you think about the story and the characters in depth to understand things such as symbolism and so on.

Also, I haven't really been tracking the retake movement, so you would have to provide me with those again or tell me what page of the thread they are on. Hope this helps you out

Some good point-counterpoint.

As much as I agree with  a lot of indoc. theory and what you've countered, and as much as I wish 5 were true, I'd defend (lean more towards) waldstr's view more for one main reason. As much as I'd love for a game to engage us in such critical thinking, especially from a Bioware game, Bioware specifically stated that they wanted to expand the audience for Mass Effect. That audience is namely the CoD/Battlefield people, and even though there are some highly intelligent people that love those series, the fact remains that there are going to be a lot of less critically minded folks along for the ride. As I said, it would be amazing if Bioware still wanted to do critical thinking despite their added audience, but it's the one thing that prevents me from being a hardcore indoc. believer. I'm more of a wait-and-see kind of person, but the wait 'til PAX East is killing me.

and @waldstr, please ignore noobsauce's comments directed at you. Responding to them will get no one anywhere. I've appreciated what you've had to say, and I'm glad you didn't leave forever because of him/her. A good point-counterpoint is better than nothing at all.

[waldstr18]

Sire Styx wrote...

For the people who think you are getting penalised for having a greater EMS:

sirestyx.bravehost.com/ending.png

I made a quick table for what I think I know. Regardless of whether the ending was IT and so not real, from what we know, greater EMS gives the earth better chances of survial.

You may unlock other endings, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are good ones. You need to have a high EMS and pick the correct ending (or so IT says). You aren't forced to pick synthesis or control and, infact, it's been suggested in this thread that the other endings are reaper tricks. It's a bit meta, in that it plays on the fact that, over the course of the games, the player learns to associate blue as paragon and red as renegade, and over the course of many (other games) associates EMS, points, score values etc as a means for unlocking additional better content.

you missed the one scenario i was talking about. there is the possiblity of only getting the destroy option - no control, no synthetis. thats what i am talking about.

by the way. without multiplayer, can i reach the high ems class? my first playtrough was without, but i dont remember exactly cause, like others have mentioned, the endings are very similar. so, i guess the real question is, how much ems do i have to have to have a high ems rating. (wow! i managed 3 have in a row! could someone please check that sentence if thats gramatically possible?)

[shepskisaac]

Hi ITs. Curious how will you explain this. Why do we see dark veins and hear whispers only when TIM is present AND still alive and not at any other point of the ending if it's all suppoused to be a hallucination?

[Sire Styx]

How did I miss that one scenario? It's right there on the graph lol. Low EMS, collector base destroyed = destruction and earth ruined.

[llbountyhunter]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Thomas Shepard wrote...
5. The "too difficult for the average player to grasp" reason is kind of weird for me. It's like saying that they shouldn't make movies like Inception, Shutter Island, Revolver etc. because people might not get them. I think that this type of movies and game is meant to engage you and make you think about the story and the characters in depth to understand things such as symbolism and so on.

I wish more games and movies were like this. Seriously, people nowadays expect to play a game or watch a movie and not do any critical thinking, or, sometimes, any thinking at all. Things should be complex and you should have to pay attention to understand what's happening.

Like inception. Best movie of 2010 and its pretty complex.

Can't expect anything to simple now especially after the reapers keep saying "we are beyond your comprehension " and get the kill organics to stop synthetics from killing organics...


Unless they meant that they were so incredibly stupid we couldn't hope to understand them.

[Slaiyer]

waldstr18 wrote...

you missed the one scenario i was talking about. there is the possiblity of only getting the destroy option - no control, no synthetis. thats what i am talking about.

by the way. without multiplayer, can i reach the high ems class? my first playtrough was without, but i dont remember exactly cause, like others have mentioned, the endings are very similar. so, i guess the real question is, how much ems do i have to have to have a high ems rating. (wow! i managed 3 have in a row! could someone please check that sentence if thats gramatically possible?)

From what the wiki says, if you chose to save the Collecter base, you can only choose control with low EMS, and if you destroyed , you can only destroy with a low EMS.

As for MP, according to wiki (again) it is possible to get the 4000 EMS without MP, but to get 5000 (anderson dies / you had to renegad inturrupt TIM (not sure about the latter)) you need MP.

[waldstr18]

IsaacShep wrote...

Hi ITs. Curious how will you explain this. Why do we see dark veins and hear whispers only when TIM is present AND still alive and not at any other point of the ending if it's all suppoused to be a hallucination?

really? im melting my brain into the keyboard and you come up with that?

well, i hope the idonctrination guys dont mind, but im gonna answer that one.

anderson was the good/resistant part in your mind. the little timmy was the bad/indoctrinated part. once you decide against him, you have passed the first test, and are a little less under the control of the reaper so to speak.. but the fight is not over.

i hope that clarifies that.

[Sire Styx]

IsaacShep wrote...

Hi ITs. Curious how will you explain this. Why do we see dark veins and hear whispers only when TIM is present AND still alive and not at any other point of the ending if it's all suppoused to be a hallucination?

I'm not entirely sure, but I expect it's something to do with them not forcefully indoctrinating Shepard. The reapers have Shep in a unreal state, but when they force their will and start to indoctrinate Shep, the veins appear. That's why, if Shep resists them, they fade away as Sheps resisting the indoctrination. I believe when TIM is present they're aiming for a quick + fast forcful indoctrination as opposed to the subtle indoctrination they can do over a longer period of time. But that's just my thoughts.

[IronSabbath88]

IsaacShep wrote...

Hi ITs. Curious how will you explain this. Why do we see dark veins and hear whispers only when TIM is present AND still alive and not at any other point of the ending if it's all suppoused to be a hallucination?

TIM IS the imbodiment of the indoctrination process.

I can't remember any time when Saren or anyone who was indoctrinated was able to take control of a person. It's never happened before, so why is TIM suddenly different?

Modifié par IronSabbath88, 29 mars 2012 - 11:27 .

[Slaiyer]

llbountyhunter wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Thomas Shepard wrote...
5. The "too difficult for the average player to grasp" reason is kind of weird for me. It's like saying that they shouldn't make movies like Inception, Shutter Island, Revolver etc. because people might not get them. I think that this type of movies and game is meant to engage you and make you think about the story and the characters in depth to understand things such as symbolism and so on.

I wish more games and movies were like this. Seriously, people nowadays expect to play a game or watch a movie and not do any critical thinking, or, sometimes, any thinking at all. Things should be complex and you should have to pay attention to understand what's happening.

Like inception. Best movie of 2010 and its pretty complex.

Can't expect anything to simple now especially after the reapers keep saying "we are beyond your comprehension " and get the kill organics to stop synthetics from killing organics...


Unless they meant that they were so incredibly stupid we couldn't hope to understand them.

lol +1

[waldstr18]

Sire Styx wrote...

How did I miss that one scenario? It's right there on the graph lol. Low EMS, collector base destroyed = destruction and earth ruined.

if you ahvent missed it, shouldnt there be in the first row:

everyone dies!    ----       ----

in your first row the red and blue options are there. thats what i meant.


also, thanks to they guy whos glad about me coming back... now i know you that love me! NOW I KNOW! and guess what... i love you, too! no, just kidding, but its nice to be appreciated.so thanks again.

[Pyrrhuss]

Modifié par Pyrrhuss, 29 mars 2012 - 11:32 .

[Sire Styx]

waldstr18 wrote...

Sire Styx wrote...

How did I miss that one scenario? It's right there on the graph lol. Low EMS, collector base destroyed = destruction and earth ruined.

if you ahvent missed it, shouldnt there be in the first row:

everyone dies!    ----       ----

in your first row the red and blue options are there. thats what i meant.


also, thanks to they guy whos glad about me coming back... now i know you that love me! NOW I KNOW! and guess what... i love you, too! no, just kidding, but its nice to be appreciated.so thanks again.

If you look at the asterisk next to the options then you can see that Destroy is linked to collector bas destroyed. Edit: Fixed it

http://sirestyx.brav....com/ending.png

Modifié par Sire Styx, 29 mars 2012 - 11:33 .

[Either.Ardrey]

waldstr18 wrote...

Sire Styx wrote...

How did I miss that one scenario? It's right there on the graph lol. Low EMS, collector base destroyed = destruction and earth ruined.

if you ahvent missed it, shouldnt there be in the first row:

everyone dies!    ----       ----

in your first row the red and blue options are there. thats what i meant.


also, thanks to they guy whos glad about me coming back... now i know you that love me! NOW I KNOW! and guess what... i love you, too! no, just kidding, but its nice to be appreciated.so thanks again.

Thanks. You may not agree with Indoc. but at least you know what it's about, as evidenced by your ability to answer the TIM question from the Indoc. viewpoint. That is why I'm glad you're here.