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lavosslayer wrote...
As stated earlier, Shepard is in direct contact with Harbinger via Object Rho in the Arrival DLC in ME2 which is where his first contact with true indoctrination begins...while not everyone played Arrival it is still considered part of the official storyline of Commander Shepard.
BlackDragonBane wrote...
If the kid in the duct is the Catalyst, then that as a very heart breaking piece of foreshadowing because it came true.. my only problem is why chose the form a child who has no real connection to Shepard aside from the brief scene where Shepard sees the child playing from their window?
Turtlicious wrote...
Plioz wrote...
I cant post on the mass effect forums because I dont personally own ME3... however, would you be able to share something with the forum for me please in the "is the ending a dream/indocrination thread"
Im not 100% sure what relevence what I am about to say has to 1m1 speculation but... from my studies I learned that.
Enzymes Whose kcatalyst /Km Approaches the Diffusion-Controlled Rate of Association with Substrate have the units in -1m1
If we think of the reaper cycle as a biological reaction...
Shepeard is the substrate and the reapers are the enzyme. The substrate breaks down the enzyme... however sometimes we need a CATALYST.
Now in regards to what I said above about -1m1. This basicaly means the catalyst CONTROLS the reaction and substrate. Perhaps sheapard is the substrate (which breaks down the enzyme i.e destroys reapers) and the catalyst ( the boy ) is trying to control him at the end. The catalyst is never used up in the reaction perhaps that is why he seems to have been around since the beggining and without the catalyst there is no reaction.
I have no idea where I am gonig with this and I must be smoking too much D:Preliatus wrote... Liara but with white-greyish skin like Relia on the Ardat-Yakshi monastery colony world.
And I did notice Anderson disappearing. So.. this concludes with Shepard rushing ahead without his/her squad members, and with Anderson staying behind in tow. Unless Shepard led the rush and everyone was behind him/her.
Quoted for the people who borrowed the game.
)
Howso? Where else does Harbinger rear his head? I heard the name dropped a few times, but I don't think he had the opportunity to even try. Likewise, I don't think it will be up to the player to decide (or at least, I hope not). We were promised a satisfying ending. Yet we ended on a cliffhanger, whether the events actually happened or if they were a dream. This was supposed to conclude Shepard's story, yet it ends with him gasping for air in rubble with no elaboration on what that entails?lookingglassmind wrote...
Berkilak wrote...
I don't believe Shepard was indoctrinated.
I just think he was knocked unconscious by Harbinger (as we see him awaken with concrete rubble around him: more likely London than the Citadel), and his final dream was merely the culmination of the previous dreams.
The kid was there as a representation of the futility Shepard was feeling as he was unable to save him. And having the entire room set up as a dialogue wheel (complete with red and blue) represents all the decisions he had made up to that point. His fear of separation is shown with the Normandy's crew being stranded. And his belief that he will become a legend, for good or for ill, is shown with the old man and the child.
And this complete disconnect from reality becomes connected once again when Shepard wakes up.
Agree. I don't think Shepard was indoctrinated, either. But I think Harbinger is trying, throughout the game, to indoctrinate him/her. And is trying really hard in the last scene.
It's up to the player to decide if Shepard is indoctrinated or not.
Modifié par Berkilak, 11 mars 2012 - 09:57 .
themidz wrote...
holyshock18 wrote...
themidz wrote...
ot can please somebody explain to me how did TIM controlled shepard and anderson? thanks
Well if we go with the Indoctrination theory. Then its not Tim controling him. Then its simply a batle with Harbringer in his mind. And Tim is the first test Shepard have to overcome to break free of Harbringers Will
yes, this one i get, but if we assume that we are wrong, how did he do that?
thats why this is the only thing who fits in my mind. (Maybe i am Indoctrianted to hope for another ending)
novaseeker wrote...
BlackDragonBane wrote...
If the kid in the duct is the Catalyst, then that as a very heart breaking piece of foreshadowing because it came true.. my only problem is why chose the form a child who has no real connection to Shepard aside from the brief scene where Shepard sees the child playing from their window?
I suspect because the Reapers/Catalyst understand that humans in particular have a very soft spot for human children. Shepard doesn't know this child, but look at how upset he is to see the shuttle get blown up, knowing that the kid is on the shuttle. It isn't a very abnormal human reaction, really, to a child who *appears* to be alone and helpless in a hostile environment. It isn't that much of a stretch, to me, that the Reapers/Catalyst would know this about human nature in general and would use it as a "way in" to Shepard's indoctrination.
M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
Just because a Renegade Shepard is ruthless and intimidating, it doesn't mean that they can't grasp the enormity of the situation. This is YOUR race and every single organic being in the galaxy being wiped out. A situation like this would have even the most hard shelled human sympathize to some extent.
Now, with that being said, I do think that this whole child thing was a cheesy way to tug at the player's emotions.
Modifié par MissMaster_2, 11 mars 2012 - 10:01 .
Modifié par Mr Massakka, 11 mars 2012 - 10:00 .
BlackDragonBane wrote...
novaseeker wrote...
BlackDragonBane wrote...
If the kid in the duct is the Catalyst, then that as a very heart breaking piece of foreshadowing because it came true.. my only problem is why chose the form a child who has no real connection to Shepard aside from the brief scene where Shepard sees the child playing from their window?
I suspect because the Reapers/Catalyst understand that humans in particular have a very soft spot for human children. Shepard doesn't know this child, but look at how upset he is to see the shuttle get blown up, knowing that the kid is on the shuttle. It isn't a very abnormal human reaction, really, to a child who *appears* to be alone and helpless in a hostile environment. It isn't that much of a stretch, to me, that the Reapers/Catalyst would know this about human nature in general and would use it as a "way in" to Shepard's indoctrination.
I think I need to reword this now that I'm reading it over.
My question would be, if the chlid in the air ducts is indeed the Catalyst itself, why would it chose that form prior to the Destroyer-Reaper's attack on the evacuation that resulted in the boy's death? Prior to that, Shepard has only seen the boy once and has no real emotional connection, regradless of gender or alignment.
I can understand the notion the child represents humanity to Shepard, but that's after leaving Earth. I'm just not seeing a clear explination for the child in the air ducts being the Catalyst is all that I'm getting at. I'm more inclined to believe it was the same child, he just managed to find his way out of the building and got to the evac point, only to be destroyed, as he basically promised to Shepard.
Modifié par Mizar_Panzar, 11 mars 2012 - 10:04 .
Mr Massakka wrote...
After re-watching the endings, I am more and more aware that this whole theory is just wish-thinking.
Even if it does not satisfy...
They have put so much effort into this ending, everything is perfectly staged for it: The music, the cg-cutscenes, the crashed Normandy... all this is just established to be the real ending... I doubt it's even a good idea now to bring you out of this, telling this was all a dream and bash another ending in your face...
Mr Massakka wrote...
After re-watching the endings, I am more and more aware that this whole theory is just wish-thinking.
Even if it does not satisfy...
They have put so much effort into this ending, everything is perfectly staged for it: The music, the cg-cutscenes, the crashed Normandy... all this is just established to be the real ending... I doubt it's even a good idea now to bring you out of this, telling this was all a dream and bash another ending in your face...
Modifié par MissMaster_2, 11 mars 2012 - 10:05 .
BlackDragonBane wrote...
I think I need to reword this now that I'm reading it over.
My question would be, if the chlid in the air ducts is indeed the Catalyst itself, why would it chose that form prior to the Destroyer-Reaper's attack on the evacuation that resulted in the boy's death? Prior to that, Shepard has only seen the boy once and has no real emotional connection, regradless of gender or alignment.
I can understand the notion the child represents humanity to Shepard, but that's after leaving Earth. I'm just not seeing a clear explination for the child in the air ducts being the Catalyst is all that I'm getting at. I'm more inclined to believe it was the same child, he just managed to find his way out of the building and got to the evac point, only to be destroyed, as he basically promised to Shepard.
MissMaster_2 wrote...
M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
Just because a Renegade Shepard is ruthless and intimidating, it doesn't mean that they can't grasp the enormity of the situation. This is YOUR race and every single organic being in the galaxy being wiped out. A situation like this would have even the most hard shelled human sympathize to some extent.
Now, with that being said, I do think that this whole child thing was a cheesy way to tug at the player's emotions.
Shepard see's dead bodies all the time...I don't really see one little brat effecting Shepard like this with out Reapers causing the visions.
MissMaster_2 wrote...
M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
Just because a Renegade Shepard is ruthless and intimidating, it doesn't mean that they can't grasp the enormity of the situation. This is YOUR race and every single organic being in the galaxy being wiped out. A situation like this would have even the most hard shelled human sympathize to some extent.
Now, with that being said, I do think that this whole child thing was a cheesy way to tug at the player's emotions.
Shepard see's dead bodies all the time...I don't really see one little brat effecting Shepard like this with out Reapers causing the visions.
Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 11 mars 2012 - 10:06 .
Mizar_Panzar wrote...
I just watched the 'shepard waking from rubble' scene at the end of the credits again:
I'm afraid that I'll have to put an end to everyone's hope. The only reason you get that scene after choosing to destroy the reapers, is because that is the only choice where shepard's dead body can possibly remain:
If you choose to control the reapers, shepard turns into a husk.
If you choose the hybrid path, shepard turns into space dust.
If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......
Nevertheless, no matter how bad the endings seems to be, and how many plotholes and nosencial it is, it is indeed, the ending that bioware has intended, Shepard died :*(
M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
MissMaster_2 wrote...
M U P P 3 T Z wrote...
Just because a Renegade Shepard is ruthless and intimidating, it doesn't mean that they can't grasp the enormity of the situation. This is YOUR race and every single organic being in the galaxy being wiped out. A situation like this would have even the most hard shelled human sympathize to some extent.
Now, with that being said, I do think that this whole child thing was a cheesy way to tug at the player's emotions.
Shepard see's dead bodies all the time...I don't really see one little brat effecting Shepard like this with out Reapers causing the visions.
Yeah, but those were casualties of war. What I'm trying to say is that there's strong suggestion that the writers decided to make the child represent "everything Shepard is fighting for." Why does it have to be a little brat? Because children are the archetype of innocence and the future of humanity. Dead child = doubts in Shepard, Paragon or Renegade. Renegade doesn't necessarily mean indifferent. If Shepard were indifferent to death, he wouldn't be fighting in the first place.
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