57139 réponses à ce sujet

[BlackDragonBane]

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

I just watched the 'shepard waking from rubble' scene at the end of the credits again:

I'm afraid that I'll have to put an end to everyone's hope. The only reason you get that scene after choosing to destroy the reapers, is because that is the only choice where shepard's dead body can possibly remain:

If you choose to control the reapers, shepard turns into a husk.

If you choose the hybrid path, shepard turns into space dust.

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

Nevertheless, no matter how bad the endings seems to be, and how many plotholes and nosencial it is, it is indeed, the ending, Shepard died :*(

Control does not turn you into a Husk. If you pay attention, Shepard dissolves just like in the Synthesis ending. Shepard's body would burn up in the atmosphere if it was true that he/she simply fell to Earth. If real, Shepard's body wouldn't exist period, there would be nothing to recover and would completely nullify the breathing scene at the end of the Destroy option.

[Sharrack]

Mr Massakka wrote...

After re-watching the endings, I am more and more aware that this whole theory is just wish-thinking.

Even if it does not satisfy...
They have put so much effort into this ending, everything is perfectly staged for it: The music, the cg-cutscenes, the crashed Normandy... all this is just established to be the real ending... I doubt it's even a good idea now to bring you out of this, telling this was all a dream and bash another ending in your face...

Why not? Bioware made it their creed to play our emotions like a instrument and make music inside our hearts. They probably won't stop making games till they have reduced us to a heap of tears, crying in agoning while laughing out of pure joy and still being in awe of the expereince we just had playing one of their games.

[Debi-Tage]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Little Lummo wrote...

Wasn't Saren able to be controlled because he had implants etc in him that allowed the reapers to gradually gain more control? Shepard has implants aswell from Cerberus, and we've all seen what Cerberus have been turned into, so whats to stop it eventually affecting Shepard because we never learned where Cerberus got the implants(did we?). Perhaps they thought they had control at the end, tried to make you choose the worst decision so you die and they don't, but they underestimated Shepard. I realise this is basically what everybody else is saying, but just a thought!

I think the only 'saving grace' that keeps Shepard from being another Saren was during that time, the Illusive Man actually had his head on straight and he had explicit desires that nothing about Shepard be changed. The synthetic parts were added because some parts of the body just couldn't be fully repaired or regrown. I would think implanting Reaper parts would have been risk to the Illusive Man's goals but who's to say he didn't?

After all, Miranda wanted to put a control chip in Shepard's head from the get go.

If Liara is also your LI and you take her with you to the Ceberus "refugee" center, than you will view video of TIM talking with the Lazarus scientists about that very thing. After viewing the sequence Shepard can aknowledge to Liara that she had feared that she was a synthetic or a robot when she woke up. Liara says something like: "I wish you would have told me. I knew it was you the first time I touched you." 

That said I just finished the game myself and the dream/indoctrination thing occured to me during the final scenes. I've found a ray of hope the ending to my Shepard's 6-year long story isn't as stupid and heartbreaking as it initially appeared. Thanks all!

[Auresta]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

I just watched the 'shepard waking from rubble' scene at the end of the credits again:

I'm afraid that I'll have to put an end to everyone's hope. The only reason you get that scene after choosing to destroy the reapers, is because that is the only choice where shepard's dead body can possibly remain:

If you choose to control the reapers, shepard turns into a husk.

If you choose the hybrid path, shepard turns into space dust.

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

Nevertheless, no matter how bad the endings seems to be, and how many plotholes and nosencial it is, it is indeed, the ending, Shepard died :*(

Control does not turn you into a Husk. If you pay attention, Shepard dissolves just like in the Synthesis ending. Shepard's body would burn up in the atmosphere if it was true that he/she simply fell to Earth. If real, Shepard's body wouldn't exist period, there would be nothing to recover and would completely nullify the breathing scene at the end of the Destroy option.

Maybe Shepard's body didn't have to fall back down to Earth, but Shepard was transported to the Citadel through the beam. The beam could've shot him back down.

[mupp3tz]

Auresta wrote...

Renegade is simply ends justify the means. Paragon is more means justify the end. Doesn't mean that neither are more evil or good. A renegade Shepard is still Shepard.

Exactly.  Paragon is not "good" and Renegade is not "bad."  One is more level-headed/intellectual thinking, whereas the other is brash/emotional thinking.  Order vs. Chaos.  In the end, either type of Shepard is still trying desperately to fight for humanity and the other species.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 11 mars 2012 - 10:08 .

[Evindell]

Mr Massakka wrote...

After re-watching the endings, I am more and more aware that this whole theory is just wish-thinking.

Even if it does not satisfy...
They have put so much effort into this ending, everything is perfectly staged for it: The music, the cg-cutscenes, the crashed Normandy... all this is just established to be the real ending... I doubt it's even a good idea now to bring you out of this, telling this was all a dream and bash another ending in your face...

I would rather them bash another ending in my face then be left with...what we got.

Also, for people who are stating that there is "concrete" on the Citadel, and therefore the rubble could be part of the Citadel: 

The Citadel blew up. All those pieces should be floating through space, not stationary. And, you can clearly hear wind gusting. There is no wind in space--just thought I'd point that out.

Also, the "breath" is clearly an inhale. While you can say that Shepard inhaled, then exhaled, thus stating it is his/her dying breath, we never hear an exhale. They specifically gave us an inhale, to give us hope.

[double02]

Sounds quite reasonable. I was skeptical at first, going through the final sequence. I wonder what BioWare is planning? It might not even be about the ending, but people can hope.

[Doctor Quinn]

Also why doesn't the kid go with Shepherd? He's commander shepherd. Hero of the galaxy. He'd know him/her from the vids. A real kid would be like holy **** save me! But instead he says something that reapers would want him to say to rattle Shepherd's cage, "You can't help me."

Modifié par Doctor Quinn, 11 mars 2012 - 10:09 .

[Stalker]

CreepingGeth wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

After re-watching the endings, I am more and more aware that this whole theory is just wish-thinking.

Even if it does not satisfy...
They have put so much effort into this ending, everything is perfectly staged for it: The music, the cg-cutscenes, the crashed Normandy... all this is just established to be the real ending... I doubt it's even a good idea now to bring you out of this, telling this was all a dream and bash another ending in your face...

Everything is pefectly staged except how Anderson got there, how Illusive Man is controlling him and Shepard, how the Normandy is even flying away to crash on this planet, and how Shepard is still alive in London.

It may be full of plot-holes, but to me this really looks like it's a rushed attempt that hasn't been written out. Watch the ending again. After some half-assed actions in ME3, do you think BioWare would really make such a huge effort for presenting a wrong dream?

Even if we don't like it, it's just too much effort for a false ending.

[KHReborn]

Mizar_Panzar wrote...


If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

He would never land on earth. The Body would just be vaporized in the atmosphere.

[lookingglassmind]

ArchLord James wrote...

I found a big problem with this hullucination/indoctrination theory. After defeating the cerberus attack on the citadel and returning the normandy, shepard has a conversation with hacket and anderson via vidcomm. In the cutscene we hear hacket saying, and im paraphrasing here I dont remember his exact words: "our scientists are fairly certain that the crucible can put out enough energy to destroy the reapers, but the catalyst is the key to how that energy is delivered so that it doesnt kill us all too."

Now I am not saying that means it is not possible that shepard is hallucinating based on what he knows and has been told about the catalyst, but it is much more likely that the ending was real now because you can see bioware setting up the premises for the terrible endings early on in the game.

I... can't even begin trying to explain to you how this theory can (and has) fill all the holes you have identified.

[mupp3tz]

Doctor Quinn wrote...

Also why doesn't the kid go with shepherd. He's commander shepherd. Hero of the galaxy. He'd know him/her from the vids. A real kid would be like holy **** save me! But instead he says something that reapers would want him to say to rattle Shepherd's cage, "You can't help me."

Probably so that we'll be like "STOP HURTING MY PEOPLE!" and get worked up against the Reapers.  Bioware was trying to motivate us, but all we got were dreams where Shepard liked to slo-mo run.

[Deltateam Elcor]

ArchLord James wrote...

I found a big problem with this hullucination/indoctrination theory. After defeating the cerberus attack on the citadel and returning the normandy, shepard has a conversation with hacket and anderson via vidcomm. In the cutscene we hear hacket saying, and im paraphrasing here I dont remember his exact words: "our scientists are fairly certain that the crucible can put out enough energy to destroy the reapers, but the catalyst is the key to how that energy is delivered so that it doesnt kill us all too."

Now I am not saying that means it is not possible that shepard is hallucinating based on what he knows and has been told about the catalyst, but it is much more likely that the ending was real now because you can see bioware setting up the premises for the terrible endings early on in the game.

Except that everything points exactly towards hallucination, there is a total absense of sense in the entire sequence after Harbinger blasts down Hammer, considering the quality of writing up to that point, its just totally unacceptable, it could very well be that they just had writers block and didnt know, but i dunno, its just far too strange.

Either they wanted to make one of the best endings to a trilogy or they couldnt, i am holding out for the former and perfectly prepared for the latter.

[Terraforming2154]

Mr Massakka wrote...

After re-watching the endings, I am more and more aware that this whole theory is just wish-thinking.

Even if it does not satisfy...
They have put so much effort into this ending, everything is perfectly staged for it: The music, the cg-cutscenes, the crashed Normandy... all this is just established to be the real ending... I doubt it's even a good idea now to bring you out of this, telling this was all a dream and bash another ending in your face...

Hmm, I agree that they put effor into the music and cutscenes, but the writing was incoherent and felt incredibly "off." The only good writing in the end was Anderson and Shepard sharing a quiet moment. I just don't know, all in all, I felt like they put very little effort into the narrative ending of the story, and that makes me hope there has to be something better than what we got.

I think it would be brilliant, personally, if this crap ending was a hallucination. I normally agree with you and dream endings usually make me groan, but indoctrination would be a really interesting perspective on it (imo anyway).

[MissMaster_2]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

MissMaster_2 wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Just because a Renegade Shepard is ruthless and intimidating, it doesn't mean that they can't grasp the enormity of the situation. This is YOUR race and every single organic being in the galaxy being wiped out. A situation like this would have even the most hard shelled human sympathize to some extent.

Now, with that being said, I do think that this whole child thing was a cheesy way to tug at the player's emotions.

Shepard see's dead bodies all the time...I don't really see one little brat effecting Shepard like this with out Reapers causing the visions.

Yeah, but those were casualties of war.  What I'm trying to say is that there's strong suggestion that the writers decided to make the child represent "everything Shepard is fighting for."  Why does it have to be a little brat?  Because children are the archetype of innocence and the future of humanity.  Dead child = doubts in Shepard, Paragon or Renegade.  Renegade doesn't necessarily mean indifferent.  If Shepard were indifferent to death, he wouldn't be fighting in the first place.

I'm not saying indiffrent I'm just say I don't see a renegade Shepard being messed up in the head about that kid...I'm sorry....

I don't see a ruthless BAMF being all upset because the kid died. Shepard is taken over by the image of this child if any thing Shepard should have been more upst about leaving Kadian or Ash to die...that would have been way more believeable and should have been a ghost that Shep carried with them till the end.

That is why I think it's indoctronation..

Also what kid says "You can't help me?" ish'

Modifié par MissMaster_2, 11 mars 2012 - 10:13 .

[Terraforming2154]

*double post*

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 11 mars 2012 - 10:12 .

[BlackDragonBane]

Auresta wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

I just watched the 'shepard waking from rubble' scene at the end of the credits again:

I'm afraid that I'll have to put an end to everyone's hope. The only reason you get that scene after choosing to destroy the reapers, is because that is the only choice where shepard's dead body can possibly remain:

If you choose to control the reapers, shepard turns into a husk.

If you choose the hybrid path, shepard turns into space dust.

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

Nevertheless, no matter how bad the endings seems to be, and how many plotholes and nosencial it is, it is indeed, the ending, Shepard died :*(

Control does not turn you into a Husk. If you pay attention, Shepard dissolves just like in the Synthesis ending. Shepard's body would burn up in the atmosphere if it was true that he/she simply fell to Earth. If real, Shepard's body wouldn't exist period, there would be nothing to recover and would completely nullify the breathing scene at the end of the Destroy option.

Maybe Shepard's body didn't have to fall back down to Earth, but Shepard was transported to the Citadel through the beam. The beam could've shot him back down.

It's a possibility but that's quite a stretch considering that we never really saw the 'other' end the Conduit connects to, only that it just teleports things up to the Citadel.

[Zhuinden]

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

Yes, he'll just fall back from the Horsehead Nebula, of course.

That does not seem likely.
Hell, it disproves your entire point,

[Khar-Goth]

Berkilak wrote...
Howso? Where else does Harbinger rear his head? I heard the name dropped a few times, but I don't think he had the opportunity to even try.

*snip*

That does bring up something I've been wondering the whole time...

After all of time spent in ME2 of Harbinger trying to chase Shepard down with the Collector's as his proxies, wanting to bring Shepard's body to him, suddenly after Object Rho.... Harbinger doesn't appear to care anymore.

You don't see Harby until the end of ME3, none of the Reapers seem to care one bit about him (though their are times where I swear they are muttering his name during fights), which has me wondering if Harby got what he wanted back when Shepard spent two days doped up on drugs sleeping next to Object Rho during ME2:The Arrival.

Was he full-on indoctrinated then? Probably not, the Prothean VI didn't detect him as being indoctrinated. But then, the Prothean's were also brought down by sleeper agents the Reapers has indoctrinated during their cycle so the tech to detect indoctrination can't be flawless.

In a way, having Shepard as a sleeper agent is a better idea for them. Let him become the symbol of all the galactic races united, and then flip the switch to indoctrinate him fully and have him fulfil the Reaper's goals.

[BlackDragonBane]

Zhuinden wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

Yes, he'll just fall back from the Horsehead Nebula, of course.

That does not seem likely.
Hell, it disproves your entire point,

The Citadel is no longer in the Horse Head Nebula, it's floating right above Earth. The Reapers towed it there.

[J717]

Would really hate for the ME series to be defined by this God-awful ending(s) that we currently have.

Also, LOL at people thinking that Shepard "surviving" at the end is just his body falling back down to Earth, as opposed to him just waking up still in London approaching the Beam.

Folks, meteors can hardly stay intact shooting through our atmosphere - there is no feasible way a human body would make it from the Crucible and float some tens-of-thousands of miles through space, manage to not burn up through the atmosphere, and somehow end up in the RUBBLE of where fighting was taking place as opposed to an ocean, considering our planet is 90% covered by water....not only that, but this body survives an impact and manages to take a breath? Please. Run-on sentence i know, but you guys get the picture!

I don't care if the player indoctrination theory turns out to be a BioWare retcon, since that would be some actual closure for this game...but it would be pure genius if it was intended as canon instead. Only time will tell though...

Modifié par J717, 11 mars 2012 - 10:16 .

[lavosslayer]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Zhuinden wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

Yes, he'll just fall back from the Horsehead Nebula, of course.

That does not seem likely.
Hell, it disproves your entire point,

The Citadel is no longer in the Horse Head Nebula, it's floating right above Earth. The Reapers towed it there.

The citadel was in the widow system but nonetheless it is now in the sol system as you stated

[comrade gando]

lavosslayer wrote...

CyanidPontifex wrote...

I think that everything up to the moment Hackett says "its not working" is real; during this time, you can feel the Reapers mind trying to control Shepard, with all of the strange visual effects. Right as he/she's reaching for the console to try to fix things, the Reapers succeed, and force the visions of the god child. If the "destroy" ending is taken, Shep manages to force the indoctrination away for a moment and activate the console.

No offense but the indoctrination has to start at the reaper blast on earth...otherwise the entire scene of Shepard breathing while surrounded by rubble after the destroy option would be totally irrelevant...

oh for sure indoctrination started at the laser blast. I don't have the link but there is a much longer heart felt talk between shepard and anderson somewhere, perhaps they are holding on to that to deliver in the DLC/patch/whatever. No I didnt listen to it I dont want to spoil it in case that is correct.

[Doctor Quinn]

Shepherd survived death. Regenerated from bits of tissue that landed planet side and was likely picked up with an ice cream scoop and squeegy. Can't be much more of a stretch than that.

[lookingglassmind]

J717 wrote...

Would really hate for the ME series to be defined by this God-awful ending(s) that we currently have.

Also, LOL at people thinking that Shepard "surviving" at the end is just his body falling back down to Earth, as opposed to him just waking up still in London approaching the Beam.

Folks, meteors can hardly stay intact shooting through our atmosphere - there is no feasible way a human body would make it from the Crucible and float some tens-of-thousands of miles through space, manage to not burn up through the atmosphere, and somehow end up in the RUBBLE of where fighting was taking place as opposed to an ocean, considering our planet is 90% covered by water....run-on sentence i know, but you guys get the picture!

I don't care if the player indoctrination theory turns out to be a BioWare retcon, since that would be some actual closure for this game...but it would be pure genius if it was intended as canon instead. Only time will tell though...

Sorry, but why the hell are people making comments about the theory without READING THE THEORY IN FULL first?

If you'd read the thread in detail, we propose that Shepard never left the rubble of London. The hallucination/indoctrination attempts occur while s/he is lying in the aftermath of Harbinger's beam.

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 11 mars 2012 - 10:18 .