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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#2601
BlackDragonBane

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lavosslayer wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Zhuinden wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......


Yes, he'll just fall back from the Horsehead Nebula, of course.

That does not seem likely.
Hell, it disproves your entire point,


The Citadel is no longer in the Horse Head Nebula, it's floating right above Earth. The Reapers towed it there.


The citadel was in the widow system but nonetheless it is now in the sol system as you stated


Right, wrong system but ya, Citadel is sitting above Earth at that point and even if Shepard fell, the body would burn into a crisp in the atmosphere.

Whenever I think of the Citadel being moved, I imagine the Reapers either physically pushed it to the relay and jumped to Sol by clinging to it or they used some kind of tractor beam/towing cable system to move that massive thing.

#2602
mupp3tz

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MissMaster_2 wrote...

I'm not saying indiffrent I'm just say I don't see a renegade Shepard being messed up in the head about that kid...I'm sorry....

I don't see a ruthless BAMF being all upset because the kid died. Shepard is taken over by the image of this child if any thing Shepard should have been more upst about leaving Kadian or Ash to die...that would have been way more believeable and should have been a ghost that Shep carried with them till the end.

That is why I think it's indoctronation..

Also what kid says "You can't help me?" ish'


LOL at BAMF.  That made me laugh. Well, I think that the child is just something that Shepard obsesses over as it gets closer and closer to the end, and, like I said earlier, it's just poetically apt for the Reapers to present themselves as the child to confront him with making the final decision.  In a sense, he does think of the fallen squadmates during the ending dream sequences when he hears voices of various crew membes talking to him. 

In the end.. this running theme with the kid is just.. UGH.  Couldn't it have just been Charr?

#2603
lavosslayer

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lookingglassmind wrote...

J717 wrote...

Would really hate for the ME series to be defined by this God-awful ending(s) that we currently have.

Also, LOL at people thinking that Shepard "surviving" at the end is just his body falling back down to Earth, as opposed to him just waking up still in London approaching the Beam.

Folks, meteors can hardly stay intact shooting through our atmosphere - there is no feasible way a human body would make it from the Crucible and float some tens-of-thousands of miles through space, manage to not burn up through the atmosphere, and somehow end up in the RUBBLE of where fighting was taking place as opposed to an ocean, considering our planet is 90% covered by water....run-on sentence i know, but you guys get the picture!

I don't care if the player indoctrination theory turns out to be a BioWare retcon, since that would be some actual closure for this game...but it would be pure genius if it was intended as canon instead. Only time will tell though...


Sorry, but why the hell are people making comments about the theory without READING THE THEORY IN FULL first?

If you'd read the thread in detail, we propose that Shepard never left the rubble of London. The hallucination/indoctrination attempts while s/he is lying in the aftermath of Harbinger's beam.


starting to get to you too huh? some of us have been here too long lol...

#2604
TheGoddess0fWar

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Because we're not all depressed enough...

#2605
njfluffy19

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Zhuinden wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......


Yes, he'll just fall back from the Horsehead Nebula, of course.

That does not seem likely.
Hell, it disproves your entire point,


Well, technically the Citadel was transported into Sol, so not quite. However, your body wouldn't 'fall' to earth intact, nor would you have a dying breath. Lulz. The beam working after/during the Citadel being obliterated is also silly.

#2606
themidz

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Zhuinden wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......


Yes, he'll just fall back from the Horsehead Nebula, of course.

That does not seem likely.
Hell, it disproves your entire point,


sorry for spam but your response really made me smile :D

#2607
neofayyt25

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Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

Nathos wrote...

WHY THIS WAS CUT FROM THE GAME???????


The tears. They wont stop. ;___;


Whoever posted this broke my man heart. I'm now going to do bad things with swords. So remember, when  I post this YOU made me do bad things with swords. 


this definitely broke my heart....this is one of the reasons I am hoping this is all a hallucination. Q_Q

#2608
njfluffy19

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TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

Because we're not all depressed enough...


/weeps :(

#2609
lookingglassmind

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lavosslayer wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

J717 wrote...

Would really hate for the ME series to be defined by this God-awful ending(s) that we currently have.

Also, LOL at people thinking that Shepard "surviving" at the end is just his body falling back down to Earth, as opposed to him just waking up still in London approaching the Beam.

Folks, meteors can hardly stay intact shooting through our atmosphere - there is no feasible way a human body would make it from the Crucible and float some tens-of-thousands of miles through space, manage to not burn up through the atmosphere, and somehow end up in the RUBBLE of where fighting was taking place as opposed to an ocean, considering our planet is 90% covered by water....run-on sentence i know, but you guys get the picture!

I don't care if the player indoctrination theory turns out to be a BioWare retcon, since that would be some actual closure for this game...but it would be pure genius if it was intended as canon instead. Only time will tell though...


Sorry, but why the hell are people making comments about the theory without READING THE THEORY IN FULL first?

If you'd read the thread in detail, we propose that Shepard never left the rubble of London. The hallucination/indoctrination attempts occur while s/he is lying in the aftermath of Harbinger's beam.


starting to get to you too huh? some of us have been here too long lol...


I'm getting a headache from it. :S There's a sudden influx of people jumping into the thread saying that they have irrefutable proof that the theory is wrong. And 9 times out of 10, the community has already addressed it, in excruciating detail.

I get that it's sh*tty to read pages of text. But making comments on a theory without having quasi-sound knowledge of its principles? Bad practice.

#2610
silentstephi

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The hallucination is pretty much my new head cannon regardless. It makes a lot of sense.

The idea that the final battle would be one of wills? I like it. Just wish it was a bit more OBVIOUS that it is.

Either way... here's hoping we hear something soon.

#2611
Sharrack

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neofayyt25 wrote...

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

Nathos wrote...

WHY THIS WAS CUT FROM THE GAME???????


The tears. They wont stop. ;___;


Whoever posted this broke my man heart. I'm now going to do bad things with swords. So remember, when  I post this YOU made me do bad things with swords. 


this definitely broke my heart....this is one of the reasons I am hoping this is all a hallucination. Q_Q


but in the end this convo still feels like Mass Effect while the rest of the ending doesn't.

#2612
Deltateam Elcor

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 This isnt about Indoctrination, but it is something that is worthy of mention, in more detail (scientifically proven aswell, so dont start.)

The traits of a classical NDE (near death experience) are as follows:

A sense/awareness of being dead. Perhaps

A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A sense of removal from the world. Probably not, though perhaps at the end when he makes his peace with his decision

An out-of-body experience. A perception of one's body from an outside position. Sometimes observing doctors and nurses performing medical resuscitation efforts. No, i dont think so.

A "tunnel experience". A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase. Definately 

A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light. Communication with the light. The beam, the lift up to the Child figure, the child himself, so yes.

An intense feeling of unconditional love. Would think so with an Love interest, not sure.

Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or similar. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones. Most definately for both, the Virmire sacrifice and whom ever else.

Receiving a life review. Not sure.

Receiving a "life preview" in the cases of George Ritchie and Betty Eadie, which Ring calls an NDE "Flash Forward". Not sure.

Receiving knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe. Yes.

A decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return. The Choices, so yes.

Approaching a border. Yes, again the choices are borders you cross over, if you want to stretch it.

The notice of unpleasant sound or noise (claimed by R. Moody). Indoctrination 

Connection to the cultural beliefs held by the individual, which seem to dictate the phenomena experienced in the NDE and the later interpretation thereof (Holden, Janice Miner. Handbook of Near-Death Experiences. Library of Congress Cataloging in Publishing Data, 2009.). Most definately. [/list]
11 out of 14, its not a coincedence, it is quite definite. 

(sorry silly format.)

Modifié par Deltateam Elcor, 11 mars 2012 - 10:30 .


#2613
lavosslayer

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lookingglassmind wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

J717 wrote...

Would really hate for the ME series to be defined by this God-awful ending(s) that we currently have.

Also, LOL at people thinking that Shepard "surviving" at the end is just his body falling back down to Earth, as opposed to him just waking up still in London approaching the Beam.

Folks, meteors can hardly stay intact shooting through our atmosphere - there is no feasible way a human body would make it from the Crucible and float some tens-of-thousands of miles through space, manage to not burn up through the atmosphere, and somehow end up in the RUBBLE of where fighting was taking place as opposed to an ocean, considering our planet is 90% covered by water....run-on sentence i know, but you guys get the picture!

I don't care if the player indoctrination theory turns out to be a BioWare retcon, since that would be some actual closure for this game...but it would be pure genius if it was intended as canon instead. Only time will tell though...


Sorry, but why the hell are people making comments about the theory without READING THE THEORY IN FULL first?

If you'd read the thread in detail, we propose that Shepard never left the rubble of London. The hallucination/indoctrination attempts occur while s/he is lying in the aftermath of Harbinger's beam.


starting to get to you too huh? some of us have been here too long lol...


I'm getting a headache from it. :S There's a sudden influx of people jumping into the thread saying that they have irrefutable proof that the theory is wrong. And 9 times out of 10, the community has already addressed it, in excruciating detail.

I get that it's sh*tty to read pages of text. But making comments on a theory without having quasi-sound knowledge of its principles? Bad practice.


I bet if we cut out all of the restatement posts this thread wouldn't be half as many pages as it is...lol...

#2614
FugitiveMind

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So got it, still chewing old soup...

Yesterday was productive, I have my headcanon...

#2615
OrlesianWardenCommander

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TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

Because we're not all depressed enough...


God damnit man, why did you have to post this!?!?!?!

#2616
MissMaster_2

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M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

MissMaster_2 wrote...

I'm not saying indiffrent I'm just say I don't see a renegade Shepard being messed up in the head about that kid...I'm sorry....

I don't see a ruthless BAMF being all upset because the kid died. Shepard is taken over by the image of this child if any thing Shepard should have been more upst about leaving Kadian or Ash to die...that would have been way more believeable and should have been a ghost that Shep carried with them till the end.

That is why I think it's indoctronation..

Also what kid says "You can't help me?" ish'


LOL at BAMF. That made me laugh. Well, I think that the child is just something that Shepard obsesses over as it gets closer and closer to the end, and, like I said earlier, it's just poetically apt for the Reapers to present themselves as the child to confront him with making the final decision. In a sense, he does think of the fallen squadmates during the ending dream sequences when he hears voices of various crew membes talking to him.

In the end.. this running theme with the kid is just.. UGH. Couldn't it have just been Charr?

Yeah, I know. I think BW feel short on making people feel connected to child.I they really wanted people to fully trust that kid they should have made it more familiar to change and match Shepard's sex or ethnicity. "You can't help me" would have = "You can't help your self" or "You can't win." Or they could have made the child resemble who ever died on Vermire I think the subliminal message would have been better.

#2617
Tibiilicious

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Opened a thread, might as well post it here ..

The more I think about it, the more the "hallucination/indoctrination" theory makes sense out of the ending's disparate elements.

For one, Harbinger opts to "direct this personally" by preventing Shepard from reaching the beam. He is practically standing over Shepard, who is physically and mentally beaten from the blast. We know that Harbinger loves to play mind games with Shepard and would consider her wholesale destruction a personal victory (I'm going with her, because FemShep is more badass). His presence also suggests that the Reapers want to avoid any risk of defeat.

When Shepard supposedly "wakes up" from the blast, we hear this over a comm: "Did we get anyone to the beam? Negative, our entire force was decimated." No one notices Shepard and Anderson moving toward the beam? Also, if you have the highest readiness rating (a requirement for the "Shepard lives" scene), your squadmates aren't seen dead in front of you (more on this later). Also, there is a new "death ring" around the screen as Shepard walks to the beam, made of water and blood, and it creates the impression of an eyeball "watching" this scene unfolding.

In ME1, Matriarch Benezia mentions that indoctrination is a voice inside your head, telling you things, showing you things.

In the bloody hallway, Shepard thinks it "makes sense" when Anderson describes his hallway as looking like the Collector Base. But why does that make sense? Because it's closest to her experience. They talk about the bodies being brought to the Citadel to be "processed," but that doesn't make sense, either - there's never been an indication that bodies are brought en masse to the citadel for such a purpose. This could be Shepard projecting her fear and experiences on the situation.

This is a little bit of a stretch, maybe, but the episode with Anderson and TIM could be Shepard "role playing" (tee hee) how she thinks she would handle that scenario. She imagines that she can convince TIM, whereas he has always demonstrated willfulness elsewhere in the game. Convincing him to kill himself is Shepard applying her memory of Saren to this new enemy.

When Admiral Hackett says "Shepard, the Crucible isn't working" over the comm, it would seem that he knows she's there. But really, how could that be possible? The earlier comm message gave no indication that she or Anderson were alive. It's impossible to tell if this exchange is real, or just fabricated in Shepard's mind. Maybe it's Shepard worried that something will go wrong - and this is the perfect opportunity for Harbinger to strike.

It is all too convenient that Shepard falls on to the elevator that takes her directly to the Catalyst, who just happens to maintain the form of the child that Shepard has been thinking about the whole game. The Catalyst offers shifty explanations and careful manipulations of choice to create, as Benezia said, a voice that seems real. The Catalyst misdirects Shepard from thinking that the "Citadel is the Catalyst," tries to convince her that being Reaperized is a form of "ascension" (where have we heard that before?), and that it's for the "good" of organics because they can't get along with synthetics (which has been proven to be false). When Shepard says "We'd rather keep our own form," he defensively shoots back, "No, you can't." And then offers his bull**** logic.

Shepard seems to uncharacteristically accept these explanations without question - but isn't that the point of indoctrination? Also, isn't it interesting that if you don't have high EMS, your only option is the "Destroy" ending? It would make sense that Harbinger gives you this only choice as a form of mockery, knowing you have insufficient strength to beat the Reapers. But as your power grows, your choices change - and the Catalyst specifically tries to direct you to the other choices. In the "Destroy" ending with high EMS, he suggestively says "Even you are partly synthetic..." as if to create the impression that destroying the Reapers is destroying yourself, along with the Geth and EDI (beings you care about, presumably). Before that even, he says "I know you thought about destroying us." How does he know? Of course, Harbinger would know.

In the "best" sequence, he offers "Destroy" first (interestingly, it's the "red" choice, as if it were bad), but then quickly shifts to the other two as "better" choices. Remember how he says "Yes [the Reapers will be destroyed], but the peace won't last"? Clear deflection. But his talk about "Control" is even more suspicious: he doesn't say "You could control us." He asks, "Or do you think you can control us?" He uses her knowledge of TIM to abuse a sense of guilt about him "being right after all," but then mocks TIM by saying "he could never control us because we already controlled him." This sounds a little like Harbinger hungering for the one person who could not be easily controlled. And maybe I'm reading a little into it, but when Shepard asks "But the Reapers will obey me?", he pauses briefly before saying "Yes" - as if he knows it's a lie.

Finally, he offers you the "Saren" choice - synthesis. If this choice sounds like the most bull****, it's probably because it is. Isn't what the Reapers do technically "synthesis" - combining organic matter with synthetic parts? Isn't that what they did to Saren? We already know how that turned out, but the Catalyst presents it as one of the better choices (he claims it will lead to peace). In ME1, it only lead to Saren's betrayal.

It seems apparent that the Catalyst wants Shepard to waver from her original mission, to choose "Control" and become a Reaper, or choose "Synthesis" and probably also become a Reaper. Only in the "Destroy" ending, with a high-enough EMS, does Shepard wake up.

Thus, it's quite possible that the whole scene with Joker is Shepard imagining the impact of her choice - achieving success but destroying the mass relays (just as the Catalyst claimed, even though he never said why, but remember that the Reapers apparently created the mass relays and can use this as a point of manipulation). It is her mind combining the elements of her awareness (the earlier comm message telling everyone to pull back, the words of the Catalyst, perhaps her own concern for her crew) into a cohesive sequence.

tl;dr I think the "hallucination/indoctrination" interpretation could really work out in Bioware's favor, because its execution would be really clever - but perhaps too clever, since it would be so subtle and indefinite. Granted, even if this theory were true, it is no excuse for the complete lack of epilogue - but perhaps Bioware's intent was to keep it open.

#2618
Berkilak

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Khar-Goth wrote...

Berkilak wrote...
Howso? Where else does Harbinger rear his head? I heard the name dropped a few times, but I don't think he had the opportunity to even try.

*snip*


That does bring up something I've been wondering the whole time...

After all of time spent in ME2 of Harbinger trying to chase Shepard down with the Collector's as his proxies, wanting to bring Shepard's body to him, suddenly after Object Rho.... Harbinger doesn't appear to care anymore.

You don't see Harby until the end of ME3, none of the Reapers seem to care one bit about him (though their are times where I swear they are muttering his name during fights), which has me wondering if Harby got what he wanted back when Shepard spent two days doped up on drugs sleeping next to Object Rho during ME2:The Arrival.

Was he full-on indoctrinated then? Probably not, the Prothean VI didn't detect him as being indoctrinated. But then, the Prothean's were also brought down by sleeper agents the Reapers has indoctrinated during their cycle so the tech to detect indoctrination can't be flawless.

In a way, having Shepard as a sleeper agent is a better idea for them. Let him become the symbol of all the galactic races united, and then flip the switch to indoctrinate him fully and have him fulfil the Reaper's goals.

So why does he awaken amidst concrete rubble if he was indoctrinated and up on the Citadel?

#2619
neofayyt25

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Sharrack wrote...

neofayyt25 wrote...

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

Nathos wrote...

WHY THIS WAS CUT FROM THE GAME???????


The tears. They wont stop. ;___;


Whoever posted this broke my man heart. I'm now going to do bad things with swords. So remember, when  I post this YOU made me do bad things with swords. 


this definitely broke my heart....this is one of the reasons I am hoping this is all a hallucination. Q_Q


but in the end this convo still feels like Mass Effect while the rest of the ending doesn't.


I WILL SAVE ANDERSON DAMMIT!!! Somehow T_T

#2620
TheGoddess0fWar

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OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

Because we're not all depressed enough...


God damnit man, why did you have to post this!?!?!?!


To let everyone know at least Bioware didn't add anymore salt to the wound. Oh wait.

#2621
I have to go

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I'm just going to pretend that everything after Anderson dies is a dream/hallucination. Either that, or everything after you get blown up by the reaper laser is a dream/hallucination.

#2622
lookingglassmind

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lavosslayer wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

I'm getting a headache from it. :S There's a sudden influx of people jumping into the thread saying that they have irrefutable proof that the theory is wrong. And 9 times out of 10, the community has already addressed it, in excruciating detail.

I get that it's sh*tty to read pages of text. But making comments on a theory without having quasi-sound knowledge of its principles? Bad practice.


I bet if we cut out all of the restatement posts this thread wouldn't be half as many pages as it is...lol...


Restatement is one thing. I get that it's hard to keep up. But to jump in and make a definitive statement that the theory is wrong because of 'X'? I'd be thinking twice about that, and looking through the thread to see if it had been addressed yet. Or, if I couldn't do that, then I'd at least remove the wording that suggests that the theory hasn't addressed it.

#2623
Camilladilla

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The thing I just love about this indoctrination theory and a follow up DLC is that it might possibly answer why the hell Harbinger was so obsessed with Shepard in ME2 since that was never fully expanded on and was completely ignored in this game.

Modifié par Camilladilla, 11 mars 2012 - 10:28 .


#2624
mupp3tz

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lookingglassmind wrote..
I'm getting a headache from it. :S There's a sudden influx of people jumping into the thread saying that they have irrefutable proof that the theory is wrong. And 9 times out of 10, the community has already addressed it, in excruciating detail.

I get that it's sh*tty to read pages of text. But making comments on a theory without having quasi-sound knowledge of its principles? Bad practice.


The thing is there has been SO MUCH said.  The initial foundation of the theory has had so many weaving divergences and merging that I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than 10 different variations.  The best way to solve the problem of randoms coming here with "irrefutable proof" is compiling everything (by that I mean the major points) on the first post.... but who REALLY wants to comb through 100 pages?  In the end, nobody really has any proof, but we sure as hell are good at dissecting Bioware's mind****.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 11 mars 2012 - 10:27 .


#2625
Fledgey

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Did anyone catch that the space wizard is literally a "deus ex machina"? A "God from the machine"?