57139 réponses à ce sujet

[n00bsauce2010]

Tov01 wrote...

I don't like the Indoctrination Hypothesis for a variety of reasons.

For one, it ignores how indoctrination actually works. It assumes that picking destroy somehow "breaks" the indoctrination, when we have been shown that the only way to do that is with a bullet to the head. At no point does the game suggest that it can cause an extended dream sequence. At most it can cause a "hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

There are also external problems with the Indoctrination Hypothesis. It assumes that Bioware is going to introduce DLC with the "real" ending. But if there is ending DLC, it could just as easily replace the ending completely, instead of forcing the player through an extended, and well hated, dream sequence first, rendering the Indoctrination Hypothesis completely unnecessary.

As many problems as the ending has, the Indoctrination Hypothesis isn't much better.

Another person who has completely ignored all of Bioware's statements. They've said.. what like 4-5 times now that they are not changing the ending.. just merely expanding, adding closure and giving clarity to players. Your post also seems to indicate that you know exactly how indoctrination works. So why don't you enlighten us? Because the dev's must be wrong with their codex entries I guess. They should've maybe consulted you before making the game right? Indoctrination has been broken before. So I don't know where you're going with that post.

Modifié par n00bsauce2010, 31 mars 2012 - 03:50 .

[Dwailing]

waldstr18 wrote...

any changes?

did you finally recognize the foolishness of your ways or are you still following the indoctrination cult?

Cult?  Well, if it is a cult, why don't we all have hairstyles like Jack's?  Cause I KNOW FOR A FACT that I have a full head of hair.

Edit: Specifically, her hairstyle in ME2.

Modifié par Dwailing, 31 mars 2012 - 03:50 .

[Tov01]

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

I don't like the Indoctrination Hypothesis for a variety of reasons.

For one, it ignores how indoctrination actually works. It assumes that picking destroy somehow "breaks" the indoctrination, when we have been shown that the only way to do that is with a bullet to the head. At no point does the game suggest that it can cause an extended dream sequence. At most it can cause a "hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

There are also external problems with the Indoctrination Hypothesis. It assumes that Bioware is going to introduce DLC with the "real" ending. But if there is ending DLC, it could just as easily replace the ending completely, instead of forcing the player through an extended, and well hated, dream sequence first, rendering the Indoctrination Hypothesis completely unnecessary.

As many problems as the ending has, the Indoctrination Hypothesis isn't much better.

Uh, calling it a "hypothesis" is a low blow considering how much evidence we have while you have, oh let's see, only ZERO.  Call me a little blunt, but I don't think this "argument" you're trying to make holds much if any water.

I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

[n00bsauce2010]

@tov01 - consult my post above.

[nukular power]

Tov01 wrote...
I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

Probably because you didn't present any evidence besides "you're wrong because I think so."

[n00bsauce2010]

nukular power wrote...

Tov01 wrote...
I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

Probably because you didn't present any evidence besides "you're wrong because I think so."

nukular.. it's funny because it's true:lol:. I don't ever see these haters provide any sort of argument. All they ever say is.. "I'm right, you're wrong, because I said so.. and if you don't agree with me you're a retard in denial/grasping at straws"

[Tov01]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...
Another person who has completely ignored all of Bioware's statements. They've said.. what like 4-5 times now that they are not changing the ending.. just merely expanding, adding closure and giving clarity to players. Your post also seems to indicate that you know exactly how indoctrination works. So why don't you enlighten us? Because the dev's must be wrong with their codex entries I guess. They should've maybe consulted you before making the game right? Indoctrination has been broken before. So I don't know where you're going with that post.

Funny you mentioned the Codex, seeing as I was reading it as I was writing my original post.

Da Codex
Reaper "indoctrination"
is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the
brain through physical and psychological conditioning using
electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other
subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic
system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and
buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of
"being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately,
the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's
"suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting
chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years

Indoctrination implants suggestion, so people follow the Reaper's commands without being aware that is what they are doing. At no point is it suggested or implied that indoctrination can create out of whole cloth an elaborate dream, nor would it be neccisary is Shepard truly was indoctrinated.

[Dwailing]

Tov01 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

I don't like the Indoctrination Hypothesis for a variety of reasons.

For one, it ignores how indoctrination actually works. It assumes that picking destroy somehow "breaks" the indoctrination, when we have been shown that the only way to do that is with a bullet to the head. At no point does the game suggest that it can cause an extended dream sequence. At most it can cause a "hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

There are also external problems with the Indoctrination Hypothesis. It assumes that Bioware is going to introduce DLC with the "real" ending. But if there is ending DLC, it could just as easily replace the ending completely, instead of forcing the player through an extended, and well hated, dream sequence first, rendering the Indoctrination Hypothesis completely unnecessary.

As many problems as the ending has, the Indoctrination Hypothesis isn't much better.

Uh, calling it a "hypothesis" is a low blow considering how much evidence we have while you have, oh let's see, only ZERO.  Call me a little blunt, but I don't think this "argument" you're trying to make holds much if any water.

I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

OK, zero may have been a strong word.  I'm getting a little... enthusiastic.  What can say, it's almost midnight where I am and my tact tends to be reduced by sleepiness.

Well, in terms of indoctrination, we know that the dreams up to this point definitely fit the definition of "hallucinations of ghostly presences".  Also, we don't know exactly HOW the Reapers fully indoctrinate someone.  And, we are not necessarily saying that Shepard would have to completely resist indoctrination.  It could be like in Bulletstorm, another EA game I might add, how Ishi is fighting for control against the Logic circuits in his brain.  Also, assuming the dreams were Indoc, then it has been known to present while you're asleep.  And, since IT requires Shepard to have been knocked out, he is unconscious.   As for external issues, this doesn't necessarily mean that Bioware has to "change" anything.  If this was an indoctrination attempt, then all we want is to see the aftermath. 

[Dwailing]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

nukular power wrote...

Tov01 wrote...
I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

Probably because you didn't present any evidence besides "you're wrong because I think so."

nukular.. it's funny because it's true:lol:. I don't ever see these haters provide any sort of argument. All they ever say is.. "I'm right, you're wrong, because I said so.. and if you don't agree with me you're a retard in denial/grasping at straws"

Oh, who am I kidding with my previous post.  I'm sorry, but you really didn't present any counter points Tov.

[Tov01]

nukular power wrote...

Tov01 wrote...
I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

Probably because you didn't present any evidence besides "you're wrong because I think so."

Re-reading what I originally wrote, It does come off that way a bit, and I appologize. It made more sense in my head.

[Dwailing]

Tov01 wrote...

nukular power wrote...

Tov01 wrote...
I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

Probably because you didn't present any evidence besides "you're wrong because I think so."

Re-reading what I originally wrote, It does come off that way a bit, and I appologize. It made more sense in my head.

Oh well, we all have those moments.  I just hope you'll consult my rebuttal.  OK, time to shower and go to bed, see you all tomorrow.

[n00bsauce2010]

Tov01 wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...
Another person who has completely ignored all of Bioware's statements. They've said.. what like 4-5 times now that they are not changing the ending.. just merely expanding, adding closure and giving clarity to players. Your post also seems to indicate that you know exactly how indoctrination works. So why don't you enlighten us? Because the dev's must be wrong with their codex entries I guess. They should've maybe consulted you before making the game right? Indoctrination has been broken before. So I don't know where you're going with that post.

Funny you mentioned the Codex, seeing as I was reading it as I was writing my original post.

Da Codex
Reaper "indoctrination"
is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the
brain through physical and psychological conditioning using
electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other
subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic
system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and
buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of
"being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately,
the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's
"suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting
chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years

Indoctrination implants suggestion, so people follow the Reaper's commands without being aware that is what they are doing. At no point is it suggested or implied that indoctrination can create out of whole cloth an elaborate dream, nor would it be neccisary is Shepard truly was indoctrinated.

No one understand how indoctrination works bud. It's an idea that has been in the series and has never been present much until the 3rd game (except for saren and the rachni queen.) So the fact that you think you know how it works when no one else does is hilarious. We've been over this like 30 times in this thread.. you're like 2 weeks late. Indoctrination implants suggestion, like you state. So what's not to say it can't make the victim suggest they are in a false reality? It sure as hell is able to turn people to a cause they wouldn't support if they were aware of it.

[Big Bad]

Since the conversation seems to be dwindling for the evening, I'm going off topic:

Can anybody tell me what I need to do to get an actual ME3 avatar? There is a box in the photo update section of my profile that says Mass Effect 3 war assets, but there is nothing in it!

[Tov01]

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

I don't like the Indoctrination Hypothesis for a variety of reasons.

For one, it ignores how indoctrination actually works. It assumes that picking destroy somehow "breaks" the indoctrination, when we have been shown that the only way to do that is with a bullet to the head. At no point does the game suggest that it can cause an extended dream sequence. At most it can cause a "hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

There are also external problems with the Indoctrination Hypothesis. It assumes that Bioware is going to introduce DLC with the "real" ending. But if there is ending DLC, it could just as easily replace the ending completely, instead of forcing the player through an extended, and well hated, dream sequence first, rendering the Indoctrination Hypothesis completely unnecessary.

As many problems as the ending has, the Indoctrination Hypothesis isn't much better.

Uh, calling it a "hypothesis" is a low blow considering how much evidence we have while you have, oh let's see, only ZERO.  Call me a little blunt, but I don't think this "argument" you're trying to make holds much if any water.

I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

OK, zero may have been a strong word.  I'm getting a little... enthusiastic.  What can say, it's almost midnight where I am and my tact tends to be reduced by sleepiness.

Well, in terms of indoctrination, we know that the dreams up to this point definitely fit the definition of "hallucinations of ghostly presences".  Also, we don't know exactly HOW the Reapers fully indoctrinate someone.  And, we are not necessarily saying that Shepard would have to completely resist indoctrination.  It could be like in Bulletstorm, another EA game I might add, how Ishi is fighting for control against the Logic circuits in his brain.  Also, assuming the dreams were Indoc, then it has been known to present while you're asleep.  And, since IT requires Shepard to have been knocked out, he is unconscious.   As for external issues, this doesn't necessarily mean that Bioware has to "change" anything.  If this was an indoctrination attempt, then all we want is to see the aftermath. 

I just have one question: if Shepard is unconcious, and everything on the Citadel is some sort of dream, then how does the events in the dream effect what happens in the real world?

Also, before this thead goes any further, I just want to say unequivacly that I am not a Hater. I do not have the energy to hate people, especially not over a video games.

[iwillkillfortali]

Big Bad wrote...

Since the conversation seems to be dwindling for the evening, I'm going off topic:

Can anybody tell me what I need to do to get an actual ME3 avatar? There is a box in the photo update section of my profile that says Mass Effect 3 war assets, but there is nothing in it!

I would like to know as well.

[n00bsauce2010]

Just another thought at your argument about indoctrination. The Limbic system controls dreams bro. It's possible.

The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic
system (brain, brain stem, etc) leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

The limbic system dictates sleep along with REM sleep (dreams)

Modifié par n00bsauce2010, 31 mars 2012 - 04:16 .

[T16skyhopp]

OT Fun: http://www.redbubble...arauder-shields

Marauder Shields T-Shirt. You know you want it.

[Tov01]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...
Another person who has completely ignored all of Bioware's statements. They've said.. what like 4-5 times now that they are not changing the ending.. just merely expanding, adding closure and giving clarity to players. Your post also seems to indicate that you know exactly how indoctrination works. So why don't you enlighten us? Because the dev's must be wrong with their codex entries I guess. They should've maybe consulted you before making the game right? Indoctrination has been broken before. So I don't know where you're going with that post.

Funny you mentioned the Codex, seeing as I was reading it as I was writing my original post.

Da Codex
Reaper "indoctrination"
is an insidious means of corrupting organic minds, "reprogramming" the
brain through physical and psychological conditioning using
electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic noise, and other
subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic
system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and
buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of
"being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately,
the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's
"suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting
chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable.
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years

Indoctrination implants suggestion, so people follow the Reaper's commands without being aware that is what they are doing. At no point is it suggested or implied that indoctrination can create out of whole cloth an elaborate dream, nor would it be neccisary is Shepard truly was indoctrinated.

No one understand how indoctrination works bud. It's an idea that has been in the series and has never been present much until the 3rd game (except for saren and the rachni queen.) So the fact that you think you know how it works when no one else does is hilarious. We've been over this like 30 times in this thread.. you're like 2 weeks late. Indoctrination implants suggestion, like you state. So what's not to say it can't make the victim suggest they are in a false reality? It sure as hell is able to turn people to a cause they wouldn't support if they were aware of it.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I don't pretend to have some hidden insight into how indoctrination works. I am just someone who has read the damn codex, and made the apparant mistake of asusme it's accurate.

[savagejuicebox]

waldstr18 wrote...

any changes?

did you finally recognize the foolishness of your ways or are you still following the indoctrination cult?

What exactly is it to you??

[Tov01]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Just another thought at your argument about indoctrination. The Limbic system controls dreams bro. It's possible.

The Reaper's resulting control over the limbic
system (brain, brain stem, etc) leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions.

The limbic system dictates sleep along with REM sleep (dreams)

Hmm. That is interesting. I'm still a bit sketchy on how an unconcious, dreaming Shepard is able to do anything that affects the real world in any meaningful way.

[n00bsauce2010]

@ tov01 "I just have one question: if Shepard is unconcious, and everything on the Citadel is some sort of dream, then how does the events in the dream effect what happens in the real world?"

well according to the IDT. everything after being hit by harbingers beam is considered "indoctrination" or some sort of reaper induced/suggested dream. So after the citadel, picking certain options will end in shepard having some sort of reaper influence.. thats not to say that the game is over if you're indoctrinated or minorly indoctrinated. But the choice that completely frees shep of reaper influence is the red one (destroy.) so in theory he just wakes up back on earth and finishes the fight (we don't really know how that'll happen)

[steve3194]

Tov01 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

I don't like the Indoctrination Hypothesis for a variety of reasons.

For one, it ignores how indoctrination actually works. It assumes that picking destroy somehow "breaks" the indoctrination, when we have been shown that the only way to do that is with a bullet to the head. At no point does the game suggest that it can cause an extended dream sequence. At most it can cause a "hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

There are also external problems with the Indoctrination Hypothesis. It assumes that Bioware is going to introduce DLC with the "real" ending. But if there is ending DLC, it could just as easily replace the ending completely, instead of forcing the player through an extended, and well hated, dream sequence first, rendering the Indoctrination Hypothesis completely unnecessary.

As many problems as the ending has, the Indoctrination Hypothesis isn't much better.

Uh, calling it a "hypothesis" is a low blow considering how much evidence we have while you have, oh let's see, only ZERO.  Call me a little blunt, but I don't think this "argument" you're trying to make holds much if any water.

I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

OK, zero may have been a strong word.  I'm getting a little... enthusiastic.  What can say, it's almost midnight where I am and my tact tends to be reduced by sleepiness.

Well, in terms of indoctrination, we know that the dreams up to this point definitely fit the definition of "hallucinations of ghostly presences".  Also, we don't know exactly HOW the Reapers fully indoctrinate someone.  And, we are not necessarily saying that Shepard would have to completely resist indoctrination.  It could be like in Bulletstorm, another EA game I might add, how Ishi is fighting for control against the Logic circuits in his brain.  Also, assuming the dreams were Indoc, then it has been known to present while you're asleep.  And, since IT requires Shepard to have been knocked out, he is unconscious.   As for external issues, this doesn't necessarily mean that Bioware has to "change" anything.  If this was an indoctrination attempt, then all we want is to see the aftermath. 

I just have one question: if Shepard is unconcious, and everything on the Citadel is some sort of dream, then how does the events in the dream effect what happens in the real world?

Also, before this thead goes any further, I just want to say unequivacly that I am not a Hater. I do not have the energy to hate people, especially not over a video games.

As far as my understanding of it goes it doesn't affect the real world at all. At least we didn't see it affect the world.

The last thing we see in the "best" ending is shepard waking up after getting zapped by harbinger

[slyko227]

iwillkillfortali wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

Since the conversation seems to be dwindling for the evening, I'm going off topic:

Can anybody tell me what I need to do to get an actual ME3 avatar? There is a box in the photo update section of my profile that says Mass Effect 3 war assets, but there is nothing in it!

I would like to know as well.

i dont exactly know, but they appeared when i checked after promoting one of my multiplayer classes, i think that all you have to do

[n00bsauce2010]

There is also another theory that shepard has been put inside the reaper consensus. Much similar to the geth consensus (if one even exists.) Both IDT and the reaper consensus theory play off similar ideas though. The consensus one would definitely make a lot more sense when talking about the supposed dream state shepard is in. But we don't even know if there is such a consensus.

[Big Bad]

slyko227 wrote...

iwillkillfortali wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

Since the conversation seems to be dwindling for the evening, I'm going off topic:

Can anybody tell me what I need to do to get an actual ME3 avatar? There is a box in the photo update section of my profile that says Mass Effect 3 war assets, but there is nothing in it!

I would like to know as well.

i dont exactly know, but they appeared when i checked after promoting one of my multiplayer classes, i think that all you have to do

Aha!  Thanks!  I haven't yet promoted anybody in MP, so that may be why I don't have any assets.