57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Compositron]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't matriarch benezia say that she was fully aware of everything going on around her but helpless to do anything? if so, wouldn't that contradict indoctrination theory?

[Gilgamesh117]

If they ever make a Mass Effect movie, they would have to make two,
Mass Effect: Paragon
Mass Effect: Renegade
And I think we all know Natalie Portman would be a superb Jack.

[waldstr18]

@gilgamesh

actually she would.

[savagejuicebox]

Tov01 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

I don't like the Indoctrination Hypothesis for a variety of reasons.

For one, it ignores how indoctrination actually works. It assumes that picking destroy somehow "breaks" the indoctrination, when we have been shown that the only way to do that is with a bullet to the head. At no point does the game suggest that it can cause an extended dream sequence. At most it can cause a "hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

There are also external problems with the Indoctrination Hypothesis. It assumes that Bioware is going to introduce DLC with the "real" ending. But if there is ending DLC, it could just as easily replace the ending completely, instead of forcing the player through an extended, and well hated, dream sequence first, rendering the Indoctrination Hypothesis completely unnecessary.

As many problems as the ending has, the Indoctrination Hypothesis isn't much better.

Uh, calling it a "hypothesis" is a low blow considering how much evidence we have while you have, oh let's see, only ZERO.  Call me a little blunt, but I don't think this "argument" you're trying to make holds much if any water.

I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

"I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero"" and yet.... still doesnt give any.

Honestly, the ending is terrible if thats really what it is, but what the IT does is turn it into a well planned plot to invoke thought in the players. THIS right here is what they wanted, discussion. They didnt think there would be so much anger, but what you and i and everyone else in this thread are doing what Bioware wanted.

You will find out this april.

[n00bsauce2010]

The success of the film will boil down to the director and writers. Nothing more lol. good actors for the parts will just come naturally with filmmakers who know what they're doing.

[Slaiyer]

waldstr18 wrote...

any changes?

did you finally recognize the foolishness of your ways or are you still following the indoctrination cult?

Hey! Waldstr18, been wondering where you were.

I have an answer for your point yesterday : "Why is destroy (or control if you saved Collector base) the only option with low EMS. And don't say "the reapers don't care" because then they wouldn't bother putting you in a dream in the first place."  (Ok, that was somewhat paraphrased, but still.)

My answer:

Control / Destroy being your only choice depends on the fate of the Collector Base. Saved lets you pick control first and destroying it lets you....well...Destroy!

I believe you're only given this one choice with low EMS as it best suites your shep's syche profile. If he saves the ship he has a somewhat different ideal set then if you destroy it.

"Why didn't the reapers just give you the one option no matter your EMS then?"
Simple - The game uses EMS as a threat measure or resolve / desparity meter of sorts. The higher your influence the more the reapers need to exert to properly indoc you. This is done by giving you more options. With less EMS you're more desperate, willing to do anything, thus only one option is needed to get you to cater to their will. However with a higher EMS your desperation thins and your mental resolve strengthens. The reapers need to be smart about how they play this, so they give the illusion of other choices to make you believe it to be real, as before your desparity may have made you over look things (Shep, that is - not necessarily the player).

On a side note :  Saving the Collector base was the renegade choice at the end of ME2  (It was bottom of wheel), and destroy was the paragon (top choice).  The lowest EMS choice directly reflects this as control being negative and destroy being postive.

Sorry if this was an incoherent mess. I am dead (tired),

Edit: Grammar, spelling

Modifié par Slaiyer, 31 mars 2012 - 04:46 .

[Tov01]

savagejuicebox wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

I don't like the Indoctrination Hypothesis for a variety of reasons.

For one, it ignores how indoctrination actually works. It assumes that picking destroy somehow "breaks" the indoctrination, when we have been shown that the only way to do that is with a bullet to the head. At no point does the game suggest that it can cause an extended dream sequence. At most it can cause a "hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

There are also external problems with the Indoctrination Hypothesis. It assumes that Bioware is going to introduce DLC with the "real" ending. But if there is ending DLC, it could just as easily replace the ending completely, instead of forcing the player through an extended, and well hated, dream sequence first, rendering the Indoctrination Hypothesis completely unnecessary.

As many problems as the ending has, the Indoctrination Hypothesis isn't much better.

Uh, calling it a "hypothesis" is a low blow considering how much evidence we have while you have, oh let's see, only ZERO.  Call me a little blunt, but I don't think this "argument" you're trying to make holds much if any water.

I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

"I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero"" and yet.... still doesnt give any.

Honestly, the ending is terrible if thats really what it is, but what the IT does is turn it into a well planned plot to invoke thought in the players. THIS right here is what they wanted, discussion. They didnt think there would be so much anger, but what you and i and everyone else in this thread are doing what Bioware wanted.

You will find out this april.

If that was the case, I don't think they would let the resentment simmer for this long. No matter how you look at it, they are only hurting themselves by remaining quiet.

[Slaiyer]

Compositron wrote...

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't matriarch benezia say that she was fully aware of everything going on around her but helpless to do anything? if so, wouldn't that contradict indoctrination theory?

She was aware while she was awake. Tell me, when was the last time you had a lucid dream?

[Kyzee]

For everyone going by the "April Fool's Conspiracy Theory," I'd like to share the following tweet from Michael Gamble: "We *really* wanted to make an amazing April Fool's joke, but we ran out of time because we're making a bunch actual real stuff."

Can we stop being paranoid now?

https://twitter.com/...946601150365697

[Gilgamesh117]

I could see Mark strong as Saren.

[n00bsauce2010]

Compositron wrote...

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't matriarch benezia say that she was fully aware of everything going on around her but helpless to do anything? if so, wouldn't that contradict indoctrination theory?

Not exactly no. Because indoctrination controls the limbic system (brain, brain stem, etc) Any suggestion within that area (a broad area) could be anything. Dreams are controlled by the brain stem (limbic system) so it's certainly possible that it could happen. We don't even fully understand how indoctrination works. So it could be anything.

[ubermensch007]

I watched this vid on YouTube earlier today. Indoctrination Theory By ACAVYOS

And I have to say.It is not only well directed and edited.It is very compelling and interesting.My eyes were fixed on the screen while I was watching it.

I highly recommend you all watch this vid.Whether you agree or disagree, you have to admit that it is a very intriguing and thought provoking analysis. I found much within it, hard to refute.After playing ME 3 through to completion the first time.I to found some things to be very odd.Like how Shep didn't have to reload his gun.Anderson didn't have any batlle damage whatsoever.The Illusive Man just pops up out of no where.What was he hiding in the shadows like Batman or something.

Watching this vid, caused me to toatally rethink my view of ME3.If the fellow who put this vid together turns out to be right like screwoffreg turned out to be right about his prediction of ME3's Ending. Then Mass Effect 3 will go down as one of the best games ever imo.I could totally see BioWare having the player expeirence what it feels like to be Indoctrinated over the course of the adventure.That's some serious Simulacra and Simulation...

There are many things that could be said to be hionts that this in fact what's going on in ME3.Think about what EDI says about how we expeirence reality.What Joker says to Shep after going into the geth consenses.Or how we discover that Rana Thanopils was indoctrinated.And even Shiala believes that she is still indoctrinated, but the collective will of the colonist is a stronger force at work in her mind.

Before I even watched this documentry, I was thinking about how pecular it is that BioWare chose to have ME3 take place following the events of the Arrival DLC.If your like me and you survive to the point where Object Rho itself has to put Shepard down.And you think about the fact that he was unconscious for two days.One could say that everything that goes down in ME3, is what Shep was dreaming about while in a two day acoma.

[n00bsauce2010]

Kyzee wrote...

For everyone going by the "April Fool's Conspiracy Theory," I'd like to share the following tweet from Michael Gamble: "We *really* wanted to make an amazing April Fool's joke, but we ran out of time because we're making a bunch actual real stuff."

Can we stop being paranoid now?

https://twitter.com/...946601150365697

paranoid about what

[savagejuicebox]

Tov01 wrote...

savagejuicebox wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Tov01 wrote...

I don't like the Indoctrination Hypothesis for a variety of reasons.

For one, it ignores how indoctrination actually works. It assumes that picking destroy somehow "breaks" the indoctrination, when we have been shown that the only way to do that is with a bullet to the head. At no point does the game suggest that it can cause an extended dream sequence. At most it can cause a "hallucinations of "ghostly" presences."

There are also external problems with the Indoctrination Hypothesis. It assumes that Bioware is going to introduce DLC with the "real" ending. But if there is ending DLC, it could just as easily replace the ending completely, instead of forcing the player through an extended, and well hated, dream sequence first, rendering the Indoctrination Hypothesis completely unnecessary.

As many problems as the ending has, the Indoctrination Hypothesis isn't much better.

Uh, calling it a "hypothesis" is a low blow considering how much evidence we have while you have, oh let's see, only ZERO.  Call me a little blunt, but I don't think this "argument" you're trying to make holds much if any water.

I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero," but I am interested to know why you think that.

This isn't sarcasm. I honestly want to know.

"I would hardly call the evidence on my side "zero"" and yet.... still doesnt give any.

Honestly, the ending is terrible if thats really what it is, but what the IT does is turn it into a well planned plot to invoke thought in the players. THIS right here is what they wanted, discussion. They didnt think there would be so much anger, but what you and i and everyone else in this thread are doing what Bioware wanted.

You will find out this april.

If that was the case, I don't think they would let the resentment simmer for this long. No matter how you look at it, they are only hurting themselves by remaining quiet.

Do we really know if this is hurting them? Is one more week going to change much? Maybe? Yes? No? we have no idea. We can "Speculate", but we dont know if they really are hurting themselves. We think we know how people feel because of the people on BSN and elsewhere but that is a minority. Believe me i know it is A LOT of people and no we cant be ignored, and we wont be. They are coming out with something soon, maybe IT confirmation (I would put my money on IT) or something else. 

This may be one of the best decsions Bioware has ever made. You dont know, and if you do, I would love to borrow your crystal ball sometime...

BE PATIENT!!!

[Slaiyer]

No response to my earlier theory up the page <_<...  Forums be cruel.

[Kyzee]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

For everyone going by the "April Fool's Conspiracy Theory," I'd like to share the following tweet from Michael Gamble: "We *really* wanted to make an amazing April Fool's joke, but we ran out of time because we're making a bunch actual real stuff."

Can we stop being paranoid now?

https://twitter.com/...946601150365697

paranoid about what

About whether not not Bioware was only kidding about announcing a DLC about the ending. I've seen way too many remarks in the vein of, "If this is a joke by Bioware, I'm going to be sooooooo pissed!", etc., etc. I was hoping that people weren't serious, but you never, so I thought I'd share.

Of course, as discussions in this forum have proven, people will believe what they want to believe no matter what, so maybe this was pointless on my part. 

[llbountyhunter]

They didn't eat the cupcakes! Cheaters...they took a fourth option...

http://www.ibtimes.c...-dlc-review.htm

[waldstr18]

Slaiyer wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

any changes?

did you finally recognize the foolishness of your ways or are you still following the indoctrination cult?

Hey! Waldstr18, been wondering where you were.

I have an answer for your point yesterday : "Why is destroy (or control if you saved Collector base) the only option with low EMS. And don't say "the reapers don't care" because then they wouldn't bother putting you in a dream in the first place."  (Ok, that was somewhat paraphrased, but still.)

My answer:

Control / Destroy being your only choice depends on the fate of the Collector Base. Saved lets you pick control first and destroying it lets you....well...Destroy!

I believe you're only given this one choice with low EMS as it best suites your shep's syche profile. If he saves the ship he has a somewhat different ideal set then if you destroy it.

"Why didn't the reapers just give you the one option no matter your EMS then?"
Simple - The game uses EMS as a threat measure or resolve / desparity meter of sorts. The higher your influence the more the reapers need to exert to properly indoc you. This is done by giving you more options. With less EMS you're more desperate, willing to do anything, thus only one option is needed to get you to cater to their will. However with a higher EMS your desperation thins and your mental resolve strengthens. The reapers need to be smart about how they play this, so they give the illusion of other choices to make you believe it to be real, as before your desparity may have made you over look things (Shep, that is - not necessarily the player).

On a side note :  Saving the Collector base was the renegade choice at the end of ME2  (It was bottom of wheel), and destroy was the paragon (top choice).  The lowest EMS choice directly reflects this as control being negative and destroy being postive.

Sorry if this was an incoherent mess. I am dead (tired),

Edit: Grammar, spelling

thats all very nice, but that doesnt address the problem im having with only one choice. at least i dont think it does. my problem with only one choice is, that with low ems i only get the right choice, which, paraphrasing from the youtube videos, is the one where i break the indoctrination.

anyways, am i reading that correctly? there is the possiblily of only getting the blue choice depending on destruction of the collector base and low ems? cause if thats true, the whole thought process of red being the right choice totally drowns in the toilett.

[savagejuicebox]

RedDeadRemix wrote...

Two things: 1) If the worst ending results in a total extinction of everything, how does Joker survive getting hit with that blast, let alone land on an unscathed planet? Considering Earth got completely decimated, it must be just another support of IT theory.
2) Here's a FREE, NON-DLC Mass Effect 3 Ending for you all!  Space Magic Free!

Thank you, that was very enjoyable!

[Crasher027]

Falling to synthesis/indoctrination doesn't even necessarily mean you've picked the 'wrong' choice inside this theory anyways. They're just two choices that result in the reapers having at least some measure of control over Shepard. The only truth that's come out of it is that the Red ending confirms that Shepard is alive and is widely assumed to mean he/she beat indoctrination. Losing a fight doesn't mean game over (Remember Kai Leng?) it might just mean that future content plays out differently. Just like if you choose to cure the genophage or not.

[Slaiyer]

waldstr18 wrote...

Slaiyer wrote...

Something I said. In response to something waldstr18 said. Don't be lazy, go up the page and look. Now.

thats all very nice, but that doesnt address the problem im having with only one choice. at least i dont think it does. my problem with only one choice is, that with low ems i only get the right choice, which, paraphrasing from the youtube videos, is the one where i break the indoctrination.

anyways, am i reading that correctly? there is the possiblily of only getting the blue choice depending on destruction of the collector base and low ems? cause if thats true, the whole thought process of red being the right choice totally drowns in the toilett.

1) I do not believe that if you get low EMS in any circumstance you get the option for right choice, that is why after you winz they put you back before the point of no return (before you attack TIM's base) so you can get more assets.  That belief is of many others, not mine, I have my own special version of IDT that I treasure and hold in a craddle.

2)  How does that eliminate red as good choice? Saving collector base was established as bad (bottom of choice wheel - not left side middle, not middle right, but bottom - which throughout the series has been shown to be the negative choice), so the related choice to it would be bad, no?

[Tov01]

I'm still not convinced that breaking indoctrination is even possible, at least not permanently. The most we ever see is people committing suicide during a brief moment of clarity.

I also have to ask, if the dream was meant as a trap to indoctrinate Shepard, why aren't all the choices trapped? Why allow for a way out?

[waldstr18]

guys, we did that dance a few times already, and im also quite tired. played 5 hours worth of mass effect multiplayer.

does anyone know if tactical cloak, which is a tech power, gets the 100% damage bonus from sabotage? cause, if it does, that would mean my beloved sniper rifle would do not only the 40% cloak bonus damage but 80%. wouldnt that be nice? BOOOM - head shot.

[Slaiyer]

Tov01 wrote...

I'm still not convinced that breaking indoctrination is even possible, at least not permanently. The most we ever see is people committing suicide during a brief moment of clarity.

I also have to ask, if the dream was meant as a trap to indoctrinate Shepard, why aren't all the choices trapped? Why allow for a way out?

2 reasons.

1) How would that work in a story? When they could just do what IDT assumes and it still (kinda) works?

2) Because we're in the process of indoctrination, and Shep has a strong mind, so (s)he can do stuff (holy f I'm tired)

Let's try #2 again shall we? ok.

2.2) Since we are in the process of indoc, and not actually indoc'd, our strong will allows us to break free of the attempt by rejecting the foreign thought in preference to our own.

[tsnyder2388]

Not sure if this has been asked yet, but how did TIM control Anderson at the end? Shepard is partly synthetic, so that's understandable, but Anderson? Wouldn't this further support that it wasn't real? Although, I really liked the dialogue between Shepard and TIM at this scene.