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[Terraforming2154]

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

Because we're not all depressed enough...

Lol, I didn't think that scene could get sadder, or make me feel more for Shepard and Anderson. Why was this cut?!

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 11 mars 2012 - 10:30 .

[MissMaster_2]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

TheGoddess0fWar wrote...

Because we're not all depressed enough...

God damnit man, why did you have to post this!?!?!?!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! This has to happen in my headcanon!!

[Fat Headed Wolf]

Who's seen this supposed NG+ ending?I can't get myself to play again. What does it show, and, more importantly, does it help the hallucination/dream cause?

Modifié par Fat Headed Wolf, 11 mars 2012 - 10:43 .

[comrade gando]

silentstephi wrote...

The hallucination is pretty much my new head cannon regardless. It makes a lot of sense.

The idea that the final battle would be one of wills? I like it. Just wish it was a bit more OBVIOUS that it is.

Either way... here's hoping we hear something soon.

Totally a battle of wills, I can see it now shep has to fight harbinger not only physical (they'll figure something out he's injured and harby's bigger than a skyscraper), but also mentally. I can imagine harbinger spawning shepard doppelgangers and Dark Garruses and Dark Talis. 
But that still leaves the question why they chose to "end" the game on a cliff hangar (that's what I'm gonna call it those endings make no sense). Perhaps it is to give the player an experience of indoctrination the same as shepard is experiencing? or maybe they didnt have enough time to finish the very end?? or maybe they want more money. Gah, where's my final boss battle and quarian!

[J717]

lavosslayer wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

J717 wrote...

Would really hate for the ME series to be defined by this God-awful ending(s) that we currently have.

Also, LOL at people thinking that Shepard "surviving" at the end is just his body falling back down to Earth, as opposed to him just waking up still in London approaching the Beam.

Folks, meteors can hardly stay intact shooting through our atmosphere - there is no feasible way a human body would make it from the Crucible and float some tens-of-thousands of miles through space, manage to not burn up through the atmosphere, and somehow end up in the RUBBLE of where fighting was taking place as opposed to an ocean, considering our planet is 90% covered by water....run-on sentence i know, but you guys get the picture!

I don't care if the player indoctrination theory turns out to be a BioWare retcon, since that would be some actual closure for this game...but it would be pure genius if it was intended as canon instead. Only time will tell though...

Sorry, but why the hell are people making comments about the theory without READING THE THEORY IN FULL first?

If you'd read the thread in detail, we propose that Shepard never left the rubble of London. The hallucination/indoctrination attempts occur while s/he is lying in the aftermath of Harbinger's beam.

starting to get to you too huh? some of us have been here too long lol...

I'm getting a headache from it. :S There's a sudden influx of people jumping into the thread saying that they have irrefutable proof that the theory is wrong. And 9 times out of 10, the community has already addressed it, in excruciating detail.

I get that it's sh*tty to read pages of text. But making comments on a theory without having quasi-sound knowledge of its principles? Bad practice.

I bet if we cut out all of the restatement posts this thread wouldn't be half as many pages as it is...lol...

Not sure why people are jumping down my throat - i was just commenting on how there is no way the current endings are canon, and everything i said was SUPPORTING this theory.

I was actually LOL'ing at people that could believe that the body at  the end could be anythin BUT Shepard still in London, with none of the events in the endings having taken place.

I should have phrased that yes, the ending "body in the rubble" is still Shepard in London - whether in the aftermath of the beam etc. You people need to calm down...good lord. I am with everyone else here in supporting this theory...but have people here gotten so hostile with this idea that any semblence of opposition (even where it doesn't exist) provokes thoughtless attacks?

Modifié par J717, 11 mars 2012 - 10:31 .

[Berkilak]

So why do people think that it has to be indoctrination, rather than simply another dream along the lines of the ones s/he has already had, while he's laying unconscious?

[lookingglassmind]

Was sent this by someone who cannot post on the forums:

Mr. Mistake says...

I've been following the thread regarding the ending being a hallucination, and I've been following your posts.

I've read the theory, and it makes perfect sense, hell... I have my fingers crossed.

Anywho, the thing is, I can't post yet because I singed up less than 24 hours ago, so I wanted to ask... has no one brought up the fact that Shepard is basically breathing in space since his ascension to the Citadel via the beam?

Especially during the talk with the kid and after the Citadel's arms open... how is he still breathing and not in zero gravity?

I responded with:

Yes, the community has addressed that. There are two trains of thought:

1. It's a hallucination. You know the rest.

2. He could theoretically be breathing. In a codex somewhere, it states that the Citadel does generate a mass effect field, which would allow for oxygen.

[kyrieee]

This was probably mentioned already, but Shep only waking up with a high enough EMS kind of makes sense, if you think of it as the fleet not holding out long enough for Shep to wake up if it isn't strong enough. What I mean is that the Reapers wipe everything out before Shep regains consciousness.

Tbh, I wouldn't expect BioWare to actually spell out the ending. They can't make DLC that you can only play with >5k EMS and one of the three ending choices.

[novaseeker]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

novaseeker wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...


If the kid in the duct is the Catalyst, then that as a very heart breaking piece of foreshadowing because it came true.. my only problem is why chose the form a child who has no real connection to Shepard aside from the brief scene where Shepard sees the child playing from their window?

I suspect because the Reapers/Catalyst understand that humans in particular have a very soft spot for human children.  Shepard doesn't know this child, but look at how upset he is to see the shuttle get blown up, knowing that the kid is on the shuttle.  It isn't a very abnormal human reaction, really, to a child who *appears* to be alone and helpless in a hostile environment.  It isn't that much of a stretch, to me, that the Reapers/Catalyst would know this about human nature in general and would use it as a "way in" to Shepard's indoctrination.

I think I need to reword this now that I'm reading it over.

My question would be, if the chlid in the air ducts is indeed the Catalyst itself, why would it chose that form prior to the Destroyer-Reaper's attack on the evacuation that resulted in the boy's death? Prior to that, Shepard has only seen the boy once and has no real emotional connection, regradless of gender or alignment.

I can understand the notion the child represents humanity to Shepard, but that's after leaving Earth. I'm just not seeing a clear explination for the child in the air ducts being the Catalyst is all that I'm getting at. I'm more inclined to believe it was the same child, he just managed to find his way out of the building and got to the evac point, only to be destroyed, as he basically promised to Shepard.

It could be either that

(i) the child is real, and the Reapers/Catalyst only capitalize on the child's image later, after Shepard reacts the way he does to seeing the shuttle destroyed, and opt to use the child as the mechanism in indoctrination dreams and on the final "test" on the Citadel or

(ii) the child was planted in Vancouver from the beginning as a projection by Harbinger/Reapers/Catalyst as a way in to Shepard's psyche -- perhaps even as a means to see how he would react to the killing of the child as a means of judging whether this would be a good avenue to use for indoctrination dreams -- a weakness, if you will, in Shepard, a vulnerability.  

Personally I lean more toward (i) than (ii), but I don't think this detail matters all that much overall to the indoctrination theory -- at some stage it appears that the Reapers decide that using the child as the indoctrination image in the dreams is one of the ways they will work their way inside Shepard -- whether the child was ever real (and died) or not.

[Fledgey]

Berkilak wrote...

So why do people think that it has to be indoctrination, rather than simply another dream along the lines of the ones s/he has already had, while he's laying unconscious?

Because "It was all a dream" is too trite.

[Malachi_33]

I don't know anyone asked this, but why is that glass pipe on the Crucible? It's almost too easy to destroy the entire almighty Reaper fleet with a few bullets, after all. Doesn't seem real.

It's like that small thermal exhaust port on the Death Star. a small, but deadly flaw by the engineers...

[Deltateam Elcor]

Berkilak wrote...

So why do people think that it has to be indoctrination, rather than simply another dream along the lines of the ones s/he has already had, while he's laying unconscious?

Harbinger himself is in front of him, it finally has the chance to break him.

[njfluffy19]

Fat Headed Wolf wrote...

Who's seen this supposed NG+ ending. I can't get myself to play again. What does it show, and, more importantly, does it help the hallucination/dream cause?

Ah, yes, the "NG+ ending", hope that there is a future for the Mass Effect universe. We have dismissed that claim.

I couldn't resist.

[lookingglassmind]

J717 wrote...

Not sure why people are jumping down my throat - i was just commenting on how there is no way the current endings are canon, and everything i said was SUPPORTING this theory.

I was actually LOL'ing at people that could believe that the body at  the end could be anythin BUT Shepard still in London, with none of the events in the endings having taken place.

I should have phrased that yes, the ending "body in the rubble" is still Shepard in London - whether in the aftermath of the beam etc. You people need to calm down...good lord. I am with everyone else here in supporting this theory...but have people here gotten so hostile with this idea that any semblence of opposition (even where it doesn't exist) provokes thoughtless attacks?

*nods*

You're right. I didn't read your wording clearly enough. Talk about irony, and not practicing what I preach. And I fully apologize. Now that I have your explanation, I completely understand your stance. I apologize for being a b*tch.

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 11 mars 2012 - 10:35 .

[MissMaster_2]

This thread is the only why I can play me3 again.

So what do you guys think happened after Shep woke up?

I'm headcanoning that that whild Shep was have a LSD trip some unknown fighter made it to the Citidel and hit the kill switch.

Modifié par MissMaster_2, 11 mars 2012 - 10:36 .

[Pyewacket]

You know, looking back when I chose synthesis and jumped into the beam
(because in hind sight I'm a gullible idiot), I remember this him getting mighy husk-ified.  I think I just got punked by a reaper.

Modifié par Pyewacket, 11 mars 2012 - 10:36 .

[Bigdoser]

Tibiilicious wrote...

Opened a thread, might as well post it here ..

The more I think about it, the more the "hallucination/indoctrination" theory makes sense out of the ending's disparate elements.

For one, Harbinger opts to "direct this personally" by preventing Shepard from reaching the beam. He is practically standing over Shepard, who is physically and mentally beaten from the blast. We know that Harbinger loves to play mind games with Shepard and would consider her wholesale destruction a personal victory (I'm going with her, because FemShep is more badass). His presence also suggests that the Reapers want to avoid any risk of defeat.

When Shepard supposedly "wakes up" from the blast, we hear this over a comm: "Did we get anyone to the beam? Negative, our entire force was decimated." No one notices Shepard and Anderson moving toward the beam? Also, if you have the highest readiness rating (a requirement for the "Shepard lives" scene), your squadmates aren't seen dead in front of you (more on this later). Also, there is a new "death ring" around the screen as Shepard walks to the beam, made of water and blood, and it creates the impression of an eyeball "watching" this scene unfolding.

In ME1, Matriarch Benezia mentions that indoctrination is a voice inside your head, telling you things, showing you things.

In the bloody hallway, Shepard thinks it "makes sense" when Anderson describes his hallway as looking like the Collector Base. But why does that make sense? Because it's closest to her experience. They talk about the bodies being brought to the Citadel to be "processed," but that doesn't make sense, either - there's never been an indication that bodies are brought en masse to the citadel for such a purpose. This could be Shepard projecting her fear and experiences on the situation.

This is a little bit of a stretch, maybe, but the episode with Anderson and TIM could be Shepard "role playing" (tee hee) how she thinks she would handle that scenario. She imagines that she can convince TIM, whereas he has always demonstrated willfulness elsewhere in the game. Convincing him to kill himself is Shepard applying her memory of Saren to this new enemy.

When Admiral Hackett says "Shepard, the Crucible isn't working" over the comm, it would seem that he knows she's there. But really, how could that be possible? The earlier comm message gave no indication that she or Anderson were alive. It's impossible to tell if this exchange is real, or just fabricated in Shepard's mind. Maybe it's Shepard worried that something will go wrong - and this is the perfect opportunity for Harbinger to strike.

It is all too convenient that Shepard falls on to the elevator that takes her directly to the Catalyst, who just happens to maintain the form of the child that Shepard has been thinking about the whole game. The Catalyst offers shifty explanations and careful manipulations of choice to create, as Benezia said, a voice that seems real. The Catalyst misdirects Shepard from thinking that the "Citadel is the Catalyst," tries to convince her that being Reaperized is a form of "ascension" (where have we heard that before?), and that it's for the "good" of organics because they can't get along with synthetics (which has been proven to be false). When Shepard says "We'd rather keep our own form," he defensively shoots back, "No, you can't." And then offers his bull**** logic.

Shepard seems to uncharacteristically accept these explanations without question - but isn't that the point of indoctrination? Also, isn't it interesting that if you don't have high EMS, your only option is the "Destroy" ending? It would make sense that Harbinger gives you this only choice as a form of mockery, knowing you have insufficient strength to beat the Reapers. But as your power grows, your choices change - and the Catalyst specifically tries to direct you to the other choices. In the "Destroy" ending with high EMS, he suggestively says "Even you are partly synthetic..." as if to create the impression that destroying the Reapers is destroying yourself, along with the Geth and EDI (beings you care about, presumably). Before that even, he says "I know you thought about destroying us." How does he know? Of course, Harbinger would know.

In the "best" sequence, he offers "Destroy" first (interestingly, it's the "red" choice, as if it were bad), but then quickly shifts to the other two as "better" choices. Remember how he says "Yes [the Reapers will be destroyed], but the peace won't last"? Clear deflection. But his talk about "Control" is even more suspicious: he doesn't say "You could control us." He asks, "Or do you think you can control us?" He uses her knowledge of TIM to abuse a sense of guilt about him "being right after all," but then mocks TIM by saying "he could never control us because we already controlled him." This sounds a little like Harbinger hungering for the one person who could not be easily controlled. And maybe I'm reading a little into it, but when Shepard asks "But the Reapers will obey me?", he pauses briefly before saying "Yes" - as if he knows it's a lie.

Finally, he offers you the "Saren" choice - synthesis. If this choice sounds like the most bull****, it's probably because it is. Isn't what the Reapers do technically "synthesis" - combining organic matter with synthetic parts? Isn't that what they did to Saren? We already know how that turned out, but the Catalyst presents it as one of the better choices (he claims it will lead to peace). In ME1, it only lead to Saren's betrayal.

It seems apparent that the Catalyst wants Shepard to waver from her original mission, to choose "Control" and become a Reaper, or choose "Synthesis" and probably also become a Reaper. Only in the "Destroy" ending, with a high-enough EMS, does Shepard wake up.

Thus, it's quite possible that the whole scene with Joker is Shepard imagining the impact of her choice - achieving success but destroying the mass relays (just as the Catalyst claimed, even though he never said why, but remember that the Reapers apparently created the mass relays and can use this as a point of manipulation). It is her mind combining the elements of her awareness (the earlier comm message telling everyone to pull back, the words of the Catalyst, perhaps her own concern for her crew) into a cohesive sequence.

tl;dr I think the "hallucination/indoctrination" interpretation could really work out in Bioware's favor, because its execution would be really clever - but perhaps too clever, since it would be so subtle and indefinite. Granted, even if this theory were true, it is no excuse for the complete lack of epilogue - but perhaps Bioware's intent was to keep it open.

Yup thats how I see it as well as renegade shepard says to TIM comprimising/working with the repears is a sure fire way to get yourself indoctrinatined. The meaning of crucible means severe test or trial and I think the choices at the end is a test of shepard's resolve cause paragon shep and renegade shep makes it clear to TIM that they aim to destroy the reapers. Plus the scene where shepard lives in the destory is shepard waking up from harby's laser because you gained enough military strength to get enough time to still activate the crucible. 

[Berkilak]

Fledgey wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

So why do people think that it has to be indoctrination, rather than simply another dream along the lines of the ones s/he has already had, while he's laying unconscious?

Because "It was all a dream" is too trite.

Not with ample foreshadowing and having been shown his deteriorating mental state. Likewise, if there is no elaborate on these "endings," it's always as trite as can be.

[Deltateam Elcor]

I cant believe i forgot, in ME1 you walk outside of the citadel to get to Saren, there is no oxygen, they had to put on their helmets.

Shot that down.

[TheGoddess0fWar]

MissMaster_2 wrote...

This thread is the only why I can play me3 again.

So what do you guys think happened after Shep woke up?

Besides the fact that she was thinking, "Well ****, stuck in the Sol system now."

[Khar-Goth]

Berkilak wrote...

Khar-Goth wrote...

Berkilak wrote...
Howso? Where else does Harbinger rear his head? I heard the name dropped a few times, but I don't think he had the opportunity to even try.

*snip*

That does bring up something I've been wondering the whole time...

After all of time spent in ME2 of Harbinger trying to chase Shepard down with the Collector's as his proxies, wanting to bring Shepard's body to him, suddenly after Object Rho.... Harbinger doesn't appear to care anymore.

You don't see Harby until the end of ME3, none of the Reapers seem to care one bit about him (though their are times where I swear they are muttering his name during fights), which has me wondering if Harby got what he wanted back when Shepard spent two days doped up on drugs sleeping next to Object Rho during ME2:The Arrival.

Was he full-on indoctrinated then? Probably not, the Prothean VI didn't detect him as being indoctrinated. But then, the Prothean's were also brought down by sleeper agents the Reapers has indoctrinated during their cycle so the tech to detect indoctrination can't be flawless.

In a way, having Shepard as a sleeper agent is a better idea for them. Let him become the symbol of all the galactic races united, and then flip the switch to indoctrinate him fully and have him fulfil the Reaper's goals.

So why does he awaken amidst concrete rubble if he was indoctrinated and up on the Citadel?

Never said he was physically up in the Citadel.

I am all for the idea of him being knocked out by a near hit by Harby's eye-beam-of-doom during the charge down the rather-similar-to-Ilos hill towards the didn't-we-do-this-before Conduit and the whole ending being a hallucination of him fighting off indoctrination (including the talk-TIM-to-suicide repeat of Saren's end) as Harby knows the Crucible has arrived and that it potentially means Reaper doom, and wants to convert Shepard at that last point to force Shepard to fulfil the Reaper's goals.

So the whole end sequence is a hallucination resulting in either Shepard's will becoming the Reaper's (Control, and seriously you just had two games of you and others saying the Reaper's minds are too vast to control), of becoming a physical tool of the Reapers (Synthesis, Saren's path and the end of life as you know it), or taking the really-bad-you-do-NOT-want-to-do-that-trust-in-the-Space-God overcoming indoctrination (Destroy, what you are there for from the beginning).

[Turtlicious]

timiriel wrote...

1m1 is used in Optics, it actually stands for inverse of focal length, or dioptry, or convergence...

convergence, you see, in Logic, is the notion that a sequence of transformations come to the same conclusion, no matter what order they are performed in

[dmacleod66]

Nobody, brought up the possibility that sheperd is still in the asari mind meld with liara, that could explain why the kid that died in the begining and sheperd has been dreaming of appears at the end.
also why anderson just happens to beat sheperd to the control platform, among other things.
My opinion is that this experiance is to prepare sheperd for the real final choice.

[lookingglassmind]

Turtlicious wrote...

timiriel wrote...

1m1 is used in Optics, it actually stands for inverse of focal length, or dioptry, or convergence...

convergence, you see, in Logic, is the notion that a sequence of transformations come to the same conclusion, no matter what order they are performed in

Hey, awesome.

[Zhuinden]

Berkilak wrote...

Khar-Goth wrote...

Berkilak wrote...
Howso? Where else does Harbinger rear his head? I heard the name dropped a few times, but I don't think he had the opportunity to even try.

*snip*

That does bring up something I've been wondering the whole time...

After all of time spent in ME2 of Harbinger trying to chase Shepard down with the Collector's as his proxies, wanting to bring Shepard's body to him, suddenly after Object Rho.... Harbinger doesn't appear to care anymore.

You don't see Harby until the end of ME3, none of the Reapers seem to care one bit about him (though their are times where I swear they are muttering his name during fights), which has me wondering if Harby got what he wanted back when Shepard spent two days doped up on drugs sleeping next to Object Rho during ME2:The Arrival.

Was he full-on indoctrinated then? Probably not, the Prothean VI didn't detect him as being indoctrinated. But then, the Prothean's were also brought down by sleeper agents the Reapers has indoctrinated during their cycle so the tech to detect indoctrination can't be flawless.

In a way, having Shepard as a sleeper agent is a better idea for them. Let him become the symbol of all the galactic races united, and then flip the switch to indoctrinate him fully and have him fulfil the Reaper's goals.

So why does he awaken amidst concrete rubble if he was indoctrinated and up on the Citadel?

Because he's originally out cold after being shot by Harbinger's beam, and is indoctrinated in his presence.
And through Harbinger, he's connected to the Citadel and the Catalyst as well.
I think.

But Khar-Goth above phrased it so much better that I should just say, disregard this post.

Modifié par Zhuinden, 11 mars 2012 - 10:40 .