57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Martukis]

Destroy != mass genocide, especially if IDT holds true.

[Zall]

I think, the Indoctrination theory is mostly true. TIM and Anderson represent two sides of his mind. None of what he is seeing is completely true.

Nevertheless, I also somewhat disagree on the translucent child. I think the child is representing this "mysterious force" which according to the Prothean VI on Thessia is trying to eradicate all organic life. It is real and we perceive it as a child, cause Shepard's been thinking about the damn kid all the damn time.

The endings also are true, as are choices, but we got no damn clue, how they will actually work out.

[schneeland]

Ravel1992 wrote...

offtop:
this is REALLY COOL: 
http://www.youtube.c...v=fzHqQbz78-s#! 

Pretty cool. Even though I'm not a big fan of Rap music, I like it.

[Stigweird85]

waldstr18 wrote...

i said it a few times already. low ems gives you only the right choice? selling an unfinished game. making it way too hard for average players to see through the deception. those are the main things i talked about ... i think.

With low EMS you either get destroy opion OR you get control option depending on if you save the [collector base in ME2(This has already been explained several times) With LOW EMS, Earth is destroyed and Shepard dies. So I hardly call that the "right choice" I'm not even going to addrss the unfinished game thing as I along with many many many others have already given you seveal counter arguments on that point

waldstr18 wrote...

but everyone of my argument got countered by something, even though i respect the ones who posted them, that i can only file under "full of it". the reasoning comes straight out of your hopeful imagination that the ending cant be real. oh, i even wrote a summarized version of hans christian andersons "the emperors new clothes" just for you guys to see the error of your ways.

See the thing with that analogy is it took one single individual to stand up against the majoirty to claim that he was naked. Is the IT following in the majoirty?: I don't think so, a quick look at the BSN threads show mostly negative comments about the endings. Therefore  in your analogy the single person saying the emperors has no clothes on would be the indoctranation theorist standing up against the perceived majoirty.

I will happily admit am I wrong when April comes and they don't annouce anything, but will you come here and admit you were wrong if they do?

The fact of the matter is, we don't know either way. I can't say you are wrong and you can't say that the theorists are wrong either. You can offer counter arguments, you can add your 2cents and you can voice your opinion but you cannot say you have the correct answer when you do not know that you do. To do so shows a level or arrogance that should not be seen outside school yards

[schneeland]

Zall wrote...

[...]
The endings also are true, as are choices, but we got no damn clue, how they will actually work out.

Pretty much that. We can of course speculate, but everything beyond the fact that many things hint at indoctrination, we are really only speculating.

[Tsuarn]

Morning... uh afternoon (just woke up so its bassicly morning for me.) from Europe. Any news?

[schneeland]

@Tsuarn:

Don't think so. The only thing you may want to look at, is a post of legaldinho on page 1060, linking to hints hidden in the Tuchanka dream sequence.

Besides: Morning is relative (first law of student life)

[savagejuicebox]

Logistics00 wrote...

I've been following this thread for what seems like days at this point, but long story short, you have another convert to the IT. It just fills in too many plot holes to be ignored. I've read a good portion of the posts, but I haven't been able to wade through the entire thing.


Anyway, I did have a few points I was hoping to make...assuming no one else has done so.

1.
One thing I haven't seen addressed is one of the final romance dialogs with Liara. I haven't been able to find an actual transcript, but from the youtube clip http://www.youtube.c...?v=kaxMZLt9S-o:

--
Liara:
It would be easy for a single ship to get lost up there...wouldn't it?

Shepard:
Yeah...it would.

Liara:
To find some place very far away. Where you could spend the rest of your life...in peace and happiness.

Shepard:
And now, there's no place I'd rather be. (Paragon dialog option).

Liara:
Neither would I. Whatever happens out there, I'm glad we're doing this Shepard.
--

This would provide a bit more rationale for Shepard to conjure up a mysterious paradise planet that his crew manage to crash land on during the ending sequence. I've tried reviewing the other romances to see if anything similar is addressed, but so far no luck.

Also Garrus says: "...then we are going to retire somewhere warm and tropical..."

something else to back up your claim.

[Stigweird85]

waldstr18 wrote...

in that case my argument is invalid. no actually it isnt. if you cant finish the game properly if you havent played the first two, it still makes no sense to me.

Can you make sense of a triology on any medium by only watching/reading/[playing the  the final part? You may get an idea but you wouldn't get the full picture until you had experienced all parts. 

By making the "best" ending available to those he either played the game twice or imported a save game from ME2, Bioware made sure to reward those fans who have put time into the franchise.


This is the last time I am going to respond to @waldstr18, he has shown over the last 20 or so pages that he has nothing to add to the conversation and is going by the mantra of "I'm right and you are all wrong and stupid" 

I don't claim to have all the answers, I don't claim to be right. I support the idea of IT as it makes a lot more sense to me than simply Bioware screwed up which is what you believe.  I will not convice you and you will not convince me. It's a stalemate. So either contribute something interesting to the discussion or move on to one of the hundreds of hate filled threads. You will feel right at home there

[Earthborn_Shepard]

Could someone quickly fill me in if there are any news?

[ky0dar]

The one problem I have with a lot of the comments here is how a lot of people are saying X is evidence, when it isn't.
Like, there is no evidence that Harbinger is actually indoctrinating Shepard. What evidence we have is things like Vega hearing the hum, the inconsistency with squad members, etc. That is fact. Objective fact.
Here's one thing that bugged me, but i've not seen commented on. We all know that the rush towards the "beam" is visually reminiscent of the Conduit Run on Ilos. Everyone acknowledges it as "the beam" though... except EDI who openly calls it "the conduit" (no capital C in the subtitles).
Seeing as how the Ilos Conduit only went one place (to the Relay Monument)... well, now we're getting into supposition.

One further thought, though.
One thing that ALWAYS bugged me was how Shepard could fart-arse about this Reaper tech and evade indoctrination. Let's look at the list. Eden Prime, Virmire, Citadel (Sovereign); Mnemosyne, the Collector ship, The Geth outpost, Collector Base; Object Rho (for nearly 2 whole days), then we get [objectively speaking] Earth, Palaven, Tuchanka, Thessia, Rannoch, Earth again. Now you may argue "but Kyodar, they were all small interactions" - but if Indoctrination is an exponential effect, say it starts off small then doubles and doubles and doubles it's effects - e.g. implanting further acceptance of synthetic life, casting doubt on the evil of synthetic life, accepting the geth, implying that the Reapers are perhaps better than someone else out there, accepting the Reapers as a necessary evil, accepting the Reapers as a force of good.
But that's just me throwing ideas out.

[waldstr18]

bigstig wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

i said it a few times already. low ems gives you only the right choice? selling an unfinished game. making it way too hard for average players to see through the deception. those are the main things i talked about ... i think.

With low EMS you either get destroy opion OR you get control option depending on if you save the [collector base in ME2(This has already been explained several times) With LOW EMS, Earth is destroyed and Shepard dies. So I hardly call that the "right choice" I'm not even going to addrss the unfinished game thing as I along with many many many others have already given you seveal counter arguments on that point

waldstr18 wrote...

but everyone of my argument got countered by something, even though i respect the ones who posted them, that i can only file under "full of it". the reasoning comes straight out of your hopeful imagination that the ending cant be real. oh, i even wrote a summarized version of hans christian andersons "the emperors new clothes" just for you guys to see the error of your ways.

See the thing with that analogy is it took one single individual to stand up against the majoirty to claim that he was naked. Is the IT following in the majoirty?: I don't think so, a quick look at the BSN threads show mostly negative comments about the endings. Therefore  in your analogy the single person saying the emperors has no clothes on would be the indoctranation theorist standing up against the perceived majoirty.

I will happily admit am I wrong when April comes and they don't annouce anything, but will you come here and admit you were wrong if they do?

The fact of the matter is, we don't know either way. I can't say you are wrong and you can't say that the theorists are wrong either. You can offer counter arguments, you can add your 2cents and you can voice your opinion but you cannot say you have the correct answer when you do not know that you do. To do so shows a level or arrogance that should not be seen outside school yards

you make a fine point againt my hans christian. i have to admit i dont know whos the majority since this is the first forum i have ever posted in (well to this extend at least). also, the ones complaining about the ending, i actually dont think they fit into my analogy at all, since they would be people from another country who havent heard about the magical power of the new clothes. those i call the entitlement fans and they are the worst. they dont think about stuff, they just asume they deserve better since its "their" game (?). yet they dont fall victim to the indoctrination theory inception.

i have already stated that ill be here, in case im wrong, to read all your "ha ha, i told you so" posts. where would be the fun in all these pointless discussions otherwise?

and about the last part you wrote. i fully support that. i actually have said it before that thats the reason why im looking forward to my "in you face" moment, since you have a few guys here who think indoc theory is the new religion and needs to be spread by beheading everyone who doesnt see the 50 clues in the game. if you care to browse back a few pages i actually stated: the only ones who can give us facts are the developers. oh, and i also fully support the arrogance part. horrible, isnt it? but those people exist, but i dont think im one of them. yes, the theory is disproven in my eyes, but that doesnt mean that im not still afraid that bioware might actually say its true in the end (i have also posted this already) and by doing so robbing me of the right to tell those idt extremists: "you are full of it"

[monrapias]

schneeland wrote...

Ravel1992 wrote...

offtop:
this is REALLY COOL: 
http://www.youtube.c...v=fzHqQbz78-s#! 

Pretty cool. Even though I'm not a big fan of Rap music, I like it.

If someone who actually could rap and sing did this, it would be quite good.  (and even better if there was no rapping)

[waldstr18]

bigstig wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

in that case my argument is invalid. no actually it isnt. if you cant finish the game properly if you havent played the first two, it still makes no sense to me.

Can you make sense of a triology on any medium by only watching/reading/[playing the  the final part? You may get an idea but you wouldn't get the full picture until you had experienced all parts. 

By making the "best" ending available to those he either played the game twice or imported a save game from ME2, Bioware made sure to reward those fans who have put time into the franchise.


This is the last time I am going to respond to @waldstr18, he has shown over the last 20 or so pages that he has nothing to add to the conversation and is going by the mantra of "I'm right and you are all wrong and stupid" 

I don't claim to have all the answers, I don't claim to be right. I support the idea of IT as it makes a lot more sense to me than simply Bioware screwed up which is what you believe.  I will not convice you and you will not convince me. It's a stalemate. So either contribute something interesting to the discussion or move on to one of the hundreds of hate filled threads. You will feel right at home there

not all of you are stupid. a few might be, but even that i dont know for sure. the ones who came up with this theory cant be, of course, since i have read somewhere that true insanity only works with high inteligence. oh, thats ment to be funny. i totally respect the "it might be indoctrination" guys, i just dont like the "IT IS INDOCTRINATION, are you stupid, cant you see the 50 clues in the game?" fraction.

well, back to the discussion.
if you want to end the last game properly, and with properly i mean actually, since indoctrination is no end at all (at least thats what you guys say), you have to put in twice as much time? you really think bioware would do that? especially after they have added only story / only shooting options?

unlikely.

as for you not responding to me anymore. im sorry to hear that.

[Jadebaby]

has this thread also turned into a chat thread like the other monster?
Had some thought, thought I'd drop them off where they belong...

If IT is true, then It seems like a troll on BW's part to have 'Pax' as the first system you enter within the Horsehead Nebula. Although it was like that in me1.

Also, Pax is Latin for peace, guess if they want to live up to that something good will be coming...

[Jadebaby]

Martukis wrote...

Destroy != mass genocide, especially if IDT holds true.

No it doesn't.

[Rifneno]

waldstr18 wrote...

@rifneno

in dark knight jokers says "im a man of my word". you might have noticed if you seen the movie.

i know what burn means, i just didnt know about the "in good fun" part, cause it honestly doesnt feel that way anymore. but i guess its not my kinda crowd at the moment.

I saw it. When it came out. In 2008. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't remember every single line. Not a Batman fan anyway. He's a competent yet emo version of Inspector Gadget.

I can see why it doesn't feel in good fun. People are getting sick of your antagonism. Maybe, you know, stop antagonizing everyone?

also from what i understand, you have to play through the game twice to get the breath ending. which also makes no sense to me, cause that would mean you have to play through a 30 hour game twice to actually finish it, otherwise you are left with a, well, not so good unfinished ending.

Ever played Final Fantasy X-2? You can get the perfect ending (and by perfect ending, I mean the only one where you actually accomplish what you set out to do to begin with) in one go through, but it requires following a guide TO A T. "Walk left and talk to the guy in the blue shirt. Don't press A to get through it quick, you have to actually hear him say the words." It also requires you to press certain buttons at specific points in cutscenes with no hint whatsoever that you should do so. For example, if you had to press "k" 5 times while Mordin is going up the elevator in Tuchanka. The only way you'd know to do it is if you were told about how it unlocks the secret ending. Which also requires that "to the letter" crap, it's not an either/or thing.

Now I realize Final Fantasy, especially one of the worst ones, isn't BioWare. Though I would argue FFX-2 isn't the atomic wedgie against good storytelling that DA2 was (not that whoever wrote anything involving LeBlanc shouldn't be shot in the crotch with a thanix cannon), that's another story. My point is that there is precedent for an RPG making you jump through hoops to get the ending that doesn't suck quad. And it was far more extreme in the hoops it made you jump through, yet there wasn't a massive outcry about it. Some people complained, but it wasn't the unthinkable sin that a company would never, should never make an ending that requires this sort of effort.

Spartenjak wrote...

I think you have to either complete the game twice or upload a ME2 save.

Wha? Playing through a second time doesn't do a lot for your EMS. Admittedly I've only done 2nd playthroughs (or any playthrough) with an import, but it never changed the EMS. The big thing for EMS is doing some multiplayer. Not endorsing the way they went about things, but multiplayer has a much bigger impact on EMS than anything else.

waldstr18 wrote...

no, i cant bring my self to kill edi.

Finally something we agree on. Though I disagree that it's killing EDI. Starbrat says it kills all synthetics, but he also says it'll kill Shepard and it definitely does not. The only synthetics we see go down are a few Reaper capital ships. Whether that's just in Shepard's head or not is up for debate, but the only indication we're given that EDI or the geth die is the word of ghostdouche, a proven liar.

waldstr18 wrote...

talking about killing; have you seen the video of tali comitting suicide? why didnt he save everyone?! the options were right there!!!

I haven't, and I never will. Just like I'll never watch the DA2 scene of Bethany's murder. Both of those seriously make me a little sick to my stomach to even think about. I also couldn't watch Shepard turn on Legion at that scene, so I'm damn glad I imported with the right decisions (without knowing they were the right ones).

monrapias wrote...

I have no trouble killing something that was never alive.

It's just a really smart computer.

So you think certain physical qualities make one inherently worthless. I think there's a word for that...

monrapias wrote...

So if someone throws a cell phone in the trash, they are monsters?

Comparing EDI to a cell phone because they're both synthetic is akin to comparing a human being to a bacteria because they're both organic. Swing and a miss. A swing facing the wrong direction, and made with a piece of spaghetti.

Fulgrim88 wrote...

My major gripe with this theory (apart from the almost religious zeal with which some claim it to be "fact") is that accepting it has a whole bunch of very unpleasant implications.

Are you sure you're not indoctrinated? Because you seem to be hearing voices that aren't real.

It's accepting that what shockinly little choice there was to begin with, is in fact no choice at all. It's picking destroy (aKa major genocide), or picking "GAME OVER - you've been indoctrinated"

"What would you like for lunch? Roast beef, arsenic, or a throw rug?" "I'll take the arsenic. They wouldn't offer me a choice that would make bad stuff happen."

I love how everyone expects for EVERY choice to be the "right" one. This isn't first grade art class. Just because a choice exists, doesn't mean it's not the wrong one. If you don't believe me, take Morinth up on her offer to play Hide the Pistol with Shepard after the Suicide Mission and see what happens. Deal with it.

[Tsuarn]

that dreamy thing is interesting!

feed my addiction!

[ky0dar]

waldstr18 wrote...

not all of you are stupid. a few might be, but even that i dont know for sure. the ones who came up with this theory cant be, of course, since i have read somewhere that true insanity only works with high inteligence. oh, thats ment to be funny. i totally respect the "it might be indoctrination" guys, i just dont like the "IT IS INDOCTRINATION, are you stupid, cant you see the 50 clues in the game?" fraction.

I must second this. It IS only a theory. It's a theory I support and one I believe works, and am more than willing to believe is real. But until we get a thing saying "Harbinger was attempting a rapid indoctrination" or the like then all we have is a theory. There's no "obvious clues" or the like, there's just stuff that you've all seen (and i've read about) that lead up to a workable hypothesis.

Modifié par ky0dar, 31 mars 2012 - 12:52 .

[Jadebaby]

savagejuicebox wrote...

Also Garrus says: "...then we are going to retire somewhere warm and tropical..."

something else to back up your claim.

^^^^This^^^^ is exactly the kind of little things I find most compelling for IT... 

There's suprisingly a lot of this with character dialog throughout the game you can relate to the ending if IT is true...

Inc James' "it looks pretty, but it's not right.."

[waldstr18]

@rifneno

i like you.

i dont want to be one of those guys who just come in here, say: "its proven wrong. here is a youtube link. now i have called it." and then get insulted for being stupid and one of those guys you get frequently who acutally doesnt proof anything.

thats actually how it happened to me. so i saw your point and stayed trying to convince you. after that failed miserably and me being a few new offensive comments about my character richer, i decided i just stay here, and add a few more people to my list, who in my opinion deserve to get told that they are delusional. if i wouldnt do that, i would just assume that all of you were presumtious little pricks like the ones who insulted me earlier, and that just wouldnt be right.

with that being said. i apologize in advance for making fun of your theory, even though im actually going to make fun of the people who followed it religiously. if bioware says you are wrong that is. otherwise. well, i still cant believe it, but i would have to accpet it and take the ridicule from the cultist of course.

Modifié par waldstr18, 31 mars 2012 - 12:59 .

[Mcfly616]

Martukis wrote...

Destroy != mass genocide, especially if IDT holds true.

Really? Especially if IDT holds true? You are aware of what the indoc theory is right? It implies that none of it happened....so no....there would be No mass genocide... Nice try though

And when taken at face value, every ending is mass genocide.....

[Martukis]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Martukis wrote...

Destroy != mass genocide, especially if IDT holds true.

No it doesn't.

 != is a combination for "does not equal," as I was responding to someone a page back that claimed the destroy/red choice meant mass genocide. I was pointing out that destroy does NOT, in fact, mean mass genocide, and that the IDT suggests it doesn't even mean destruction of the reapers.

[waldstr18]

Martukis wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Martukis wrote...

Destroy != mass genocide, especially if IDT holds true.

No it doesn't.

 != is a combination for "does not equal," as I was responding to someone a page back that claimed the destroy/red choice meant mass genocide. I was pointing out that destroy does NOT, in fact, mean mass genocide, and that the IDT suggests it doesn't even mean destruction of the reapers.

you really think more than a few people here have any coding or higher math skills?

refering to your "!=" of course.

Modifié par waldstr18, 31 mars 2012 - 01:09 .

[Mcfly616]

Martukis wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Martukis wrote...

Destroy != mass genocide, especially if IDT holds true.

No it doesn't.

 != is a combination for "does not equal," as I was responding to someone a page back that claimed the destroy/red choice meant mass genocide. I was pointing out that destroy does NOT, in fact, mean mass genocide, and that the IDT suggests it doesn't even mean destruction of the reapers.

Ahh ..my bad bro.....I didn't catch that, I just saw the "=" lol sorry about that.....but yeah in that case you're right lol