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[balance5050]

DuskRose wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

Quahtli wrote...

How are all of you so blind? The indoctrination theory is completely off.
You see, what really happened is the following:

The Intoxication Theory

Shepard was drunk.
Look at the evidence: whenever possible, Shepard goes to the citadel and starts drinking. But he does not even have to go to the citadel, he will make "yearly traditions" with his doctor (of all people ! ) to drink more alcohol. Also, he actually added a bar after leaving Cerberus, where he keeps hundreds of emergency induction ports.

The evidence is all there.

Then how do you explain my sober, never-drank-alcohol-ever Shepard getting the same ending(s)?

You didn't have the drink with Dr. Chakwas?

Intoxication theory is a funny joke guys, no need to argue against it just play along.

[Either.Ardrey]

DuskRose wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

Quahtli wrote...

How are all of you so blind? The indoctrination theory is completely off.
You see, what really happened is the following:

The Intoxication Theory

Shepard was drunk.
Look at the evidence: whenever possible, Shepard goes to the citadel and starts drinking. But he does not even have to go to the citadel, he will make "yearly traditions" with his doctor (of all people ! ) to drink more alcohol. Also, he actually added a bar after leaving Cerberus, where he keeps hundreds of emergency induction ports.

The evidence is all there.

Then how do you explain my sober, never-drank-alcohol-ever Shepard getting the same ending(s)?

You didn't have the drink with Dr. Chakwas?

Intoxication theory is a funny joke guys, no need to argue against it just play along.

I was more going to make a 'you monster' joke for not having a drink w/ Chakwas

I bought her the brandy. I just told her to save it for later. So I wouldn't have to have any. And when it does come up, this Shep would fake it to make Chakwas feel better.

Also: (This was a while back, but I was busy catching up on the thread and missed it.)
In regards to the Hans Christian Andersen-Emperor's New Clothes analogy, there is a piece missing.

Schrödinger's Cat

....That is all

[Martukis]

DuskRose wrote...

Martukis wrote...

DuskRose wrote...


Then what did you fight at the end of ME1?

 The codex and cerberus logs describe two extremes of indoctrination - a relatively quick method, that, while overpowering and effect, leaves little more than a mindless drone capable of simple tasks (a husk) which deteriorates quickly, and a slow, progressive indoctrination. This slower process allows the victim to maintain much more of their higher brain functions and can even be convincingly aware and active - thus incidents like the woman from Virmire, only being realized as indoc'd years later. This also causes a slower deterioration, which can be mitigated with implants and surgery. TIM is an extreme example of this latter part, as he was exposed to reaper tech during the first contact war, whereas the husks climbing down from dragon's teeth are an extreme of the quick form (which is confirmed to be all the quicker in living victims if adrenaline and such are flowing). From what I can tell, Saren, at the end of ME1, if he kills himself, is Sovereign assuming direct control of the massive network of implants and nanides in Saren's body.

But on Eden Prime and elsewhere, weren't human husks created by impaling both live and dead bodies on dragon's teeth?

 Indeed, that seems to be the case. The nanides are known to fortify and bolster physical capabilities - and apparently reanimated dead tissue, to some extent (I imagine a sort of biological highjacking). I hadn't thought of it before, but I suppose both of these "forms" could simply be a difference in method. The super quick method seems dependant on a direct injection of nanides - likely from dragon's teeth, but maybe introveneously. The second form seems more dependant on brainwashing and breaking the mental barriers, not the physical body. Choosing which to expose to which would make sense for the reapers - after all, there are the "priests" that TIM meets in the cave, iirc, who were functional enough to distinguish from husks. Good catch.

[Quahtli]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

Quahtli wrote...

How are all of you so blind? The indoctrination theory is completely off.
You see, what really happened is the following:

The Intoxication Theory

Shepard was drunk.
Look at the evidence: whenever possible, Shepard goes to the citadel and starts drinking. But he does not even have to go to the citadel, he will make "yearly traditions" with his doctor (of all people ! ) to drink more alcohol. Also, he actually added a bar after leaving Cerberus, where he keeps hundreds of emergency induction ports.

The evidence is all there.

Then how do you explain my sober, never-drank-alcohol-ever Shepard getting the same ending(s)?

I think we both know how he got those strange dreams. Maybe I know your shepard better than you do! Whenever you thought your shepard would immediately go to admiral hackett for mission debriefing, it was actually time for some spirits.

[IronSabbath88]

The intoxication people are trolls.

I find them quite irritating.

[n00bsauce2010]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

The intoxication people are trolls.

I find them quite irritating.

Any news/ new thoughts/ new speculation that anyone would like to bring forward?

[Quahtli]

DuskRose wrote...

 I keep thinking that husks are puppets: the Reaper has to keep pulling the strings, maybe one of  the multiple programs inside a Reaper is dedicated purely to that. But,  it takes so much processing power, and the amount of mechanical modification necessary makes it impractical to use them for anything but troops.

Meanwhile Indoctrination is like a mechano-organic virus which introduces something akin to controlled schizophrenia / dementia. (May have my mental disorders mixed up.)

The thing is, it has been argued that the reapers are controlled by something/someone else. Perhaps this thing/person can controll the indoctrinated puppets.

I doubt reapers can controll husks using power, seeing as there were husks in mass effect 1 while they were millions of kilometers away from any reapers.

[Quahtli]

DuskRose wrote...

Quahtli wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

 I keep thinking that husks are puppets: the Reaper has to keep pulling the strings, maybe one of  the multiple programs inside a Reaper is dedicated purely to that. But,  it takes so much processing power, and the amount of mechanical modification necessary makes it impractical to use them for anything but troops.

Meanwhile Indoctrination is like a mechano-organic virus which introduces something akin to controlled schizophrenia / dementia. (May have my mental disorders mixed up.)

The thing is, it has been argued that the reapers are controlled by something/someone else. Perhaps this thing/person can controll the indoctrinated puppets.

I doubt reapers can controll husks using power, seeing as there were husks in mass effect 1 while they were millions of kilometers away from any reapers.

But think about the geth, how they could upload/download and go pretty much anywhere if there was a hub close enough. Maybe dragon's teeth also serve as hubs.

So you're saying if Shepard were to be indoctrinated, all that had to be done is to bring him out of reach of Reaper control?

[Martukis]

Indeed, I think that sounds quite reasonable DuskRose.

[n00bsauce2010]

I'm confused Duck.

[Falloutwarfare]

hey guys just thought I would put my bit in for what is worth

so here is what i noticed that didn't realy make sense or seemed out of place to me:

1. so when you arrive at the citadel after entering the beam shepard and anderson speculate that the reapers are using the bodies to make new reapers but from what it says in the codex under reaper variants is that they have ships dedicated to harvesting. so why whould they use the citadel?

2.this bit might be bad attention to detail from bioware but there is a keaper in the area with all the bodies that can't be damaged but can also be walked through as if they arn't there. ofcource this might be emergancy induction port grasping but whatever.

3. finally once shepard crosses the bridge to get to anderson on either side of the stairs leading to the control room there are white objects with "1M1" written on them that appear to be thanix cannons from the room of calibrations......... i meen main battery . and if none of the modern citadel races has supposed to have found the control room (I think thats correct atleast) then why would there be pieces of their tech there?

these points may have already been mentioned before in the 1k of other pages but what ya gonna do?

also sorry for spelling i miss spell like a fiend at times

[n00bsauce2010]

DuskRose wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

I'm a confused Duck.

Fixed that for you.    Anything in particular?  Or do you just want me to go into more detail?

what are you two speculating about the dragons teeth and indoctrination regarding husks etc. I'm confused

[Martukis]

@falloutwarfare Yep, some good reinforcing points. Of note, however, is that the object with "1M1" on it is listed as an antenna internally.

[Quahtli]

Falloutwarfare wrote...

hey guys just thought I would put my bit in for what is worth

so here is what i noticed that didn't realy make sense or seemed out of place to me:

1. so when you arrive at the citadel after entering the beam shepard and anderson speculate that the reapers are using the bodies to make new reapers but from what it says in the codex under reaper variants is that they have ships dedicated to harvesting. so why whould they use the citadel?

2.this bit might be bad attention to detail from bioware but there is a keaper in the area with all the bodies that can't be damaged but can also be walked through as if they arn't there. ofcource this might be emergancy induction port grasping but whatever.

3. finally once shepard crosses the bridge to get to anderson on either side of the stairs leading to the control room there are white objects with "1M1" written on them that appear to be thanix cannons from the room of calibrations......... i meen main battery . and if none of the modern citadel races has supposed to have found the control room (I think thats correct atleast) then why would there be pieces of their tech there?

these points may have already been mentioned before in the 1k of other pages but what ya gonna do?

also sorry for spelling i miss spell like a fiend at times

1. Possible explanation can be that , similar to the citadel having the possibility of being used as the ultimate Mass Relay, it perhaps could likewise be used as the ultimate Reaper Harvesting Center.

2. Shouldn't be looked into too much, just last minute tuning on bioware's part, they had to get it done before the dead line. There's a bunch of unfinished stuff like that all over the game.

3. That is one of the most commonly used examples when people want to confirm the Indoctrination theory. It's a good point, an explanation is that it is indeed inside Shepard's mind. To fill in the room, he uses things he had seen in his journeys.

[Quahtli]

Martukis wrote...

@falloutwarfare Yep, some good reinforcing points. Of note, however, is that the object with "1M1" on it is listed as an antenna internally.

It looked to me more like some sort of gun, but iirc the first page of this thread also has links to more pictures in the secret citadel room, including some of possible ashley/kaidan corpses and, what many people keep on naming, shadow broker-esque bridge.

[Golferguy758]

Even after contributing a fair amount to this I really want this to be true, but I still have doubts gnawing at the back of my mind that Bioware would attempt to pull a stunt of this magnitude.

Modifié par Golferguy758, 31 mars 2012 - 08:00 .

[KellanC]

Hacedor1566 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Hacedor1566 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

schneeland wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

OK, as much as I absolutely LOVE this line of thought, remember that if you didn't import a game from ME2 that Shepard didn't complete Arrival.  Although honestly, are ANY of us Indoc Theory supporters people who DIDN'T import from ME2?

Are you sure about that? I didn't really try, but I assumed they were making the Arrival events canon.

Arrival did happen, but Shepard wasn't the one who launched the asteroid into the relay.  Hackett sent the 103rd Marine Division, or whatever they're called, to rescue Kenson instead and THEY were the ones who launched the asteroid.  I learned this by checking this page: 
http://masseffect.wi...Assets/Alliance 
It shows that the 103rd asset loses strength because they were the ones who were sent to deal with that situation in you didn't import.

Nope, I'm sorry, but, I played Arrival, and i can see this too in my imported game on ME3 (and I'm 100% sure, i only have 1 game and 1 Commander Shepard soldier class, i made it everything good at the first play in ME and ME2B), and never replayed) . The indoctrinated soldiers you fight against on Arrival are Alliance soliders... Maybe they are that 103rd Marine Division man and woman? 

Weird, because I ALSO have an import where I completed Arrival and I DON'T see that.  Given that the wiki says the loss in strength only occurs if you didn't play Arrival, I think your save must be bugged.

Great... Just one game, and it's bugged...  

But, anyway... In Arrival Shepard is knocked for two days, alone, in a lab full of indoctrinated mad soldiers and scientist... Even technicians... They can made her/him anything... 

I'm working on my insanity playthrough and realized I have the entry as well and I did complete the Arrival.  I swear during my first playthrough I had a conversation and someone mentioned Shepard blowing up the relay as well.

[Martukis]

@Quahtli: No doubt, I thought it looked more like one of Normandy's guns, too. I've not looked into the shadow broker like areas in the files yet - there are quite a few to sort through. Another interesting bit is the circular platform in the TIM/Anderson encounter being named "end_illusiveplatform." The corpses are kinda creepy too. That said, who knows the intent of these things.

 About the arrival stuff - the Arrival effect is a modifier on the larger War Asset, might want to check to make sure you're looking for the right thing.

Modifié par Martukis, 31 mars 2012 - 08:08 .

[Falloutwarfare]

Quahtli wrote...

Falloutwarfare wrote...

hey guys just thought I would put my bit in for what is worth

so here is what i noticed that didn't realy make sense or seemed out of place to me:

1. so when you arrive at the citadel after entering the beam shepard and anderson speculate that the reapers are using the bodies to make new reapers but from what it says in the codex under reaper variants is that they have ships dedicated to harvesting. so why whould they use the citadel?

2.this bit might be bad attention to detail from bioware but there is a keaper in the area with all the bodies that can't be damaged but can also be walked through as if they arn't there. ofcource this might be emergancy induction port grasping but whatever.

3. finally once shepard crosses the bridge to get to anderson on either side of the stairs leading to the control room there are white objects with "1M1" written on them that appear to be thanix cannons from the room of calibrations......... i meen main battery . and if none of the modern citadel races has supposed to have found the control room (I think thats correct atleast) then why would there be pieces of their tech there?

these points may have already been mentioned before in the 1k of other pages but what ya gonna do?

also sorry for spelling i miss spell like a fiend at times

1. Possible explanation can be that , similar to the citadel having the possibility of being used as the ultimate Mass Relay, it perhaps could likewise be used as the ultimate Reaper Harvesting Center.

2. Shouldn't be looked into too much, just last minute tuning on bioware's part, they had to get it done before the dead line. There's a bunch of unfinished stuff like that all over the game.

3. That is one of the most commonly used examples when people want to confirm the Indoctrination theory. It's a good point, an explanation is that it is indeed inside Shepard's mind. To fill in the room, he uses things he had seen in his journeys.

i did think about the whole citadel is a ultimate mass relay/havester but another thing comes to mind.

if the citadel can be used to disrupt the mass relay network then why wouldn't the reapers just shut them off and harvest systems without interuption? i meen the allied fleets could still try and get to earth but would arrive low on supplies and realy demoralised.
also apparently they reapers have brough all their ships to earth to stop the crucible, what if this gives the impresion of fear (or as close too fear as the reapers can get) to give shepard and co a false sense of hope and already have their plan of indoctrination ready.

that kind of makes more sense to me anyway wondered what you guys thought

Modifié par Falloutwarfare, 31 mars 2012 - 08:10 .