57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Spiderman_2028]

Kuraiken-

I've read your posts in their entirety, and there are a couple of things I take issue with.

If the main thrust of this thread is looking at the indoctrination theory, then it stands to reason that a majority of people participating in the discussion are interested in the idea. When the game is viewed through this prism, certain things seem to click together, kind of like a Lego kit. Other parts of the game are more like Meccano- they don't fit with the other pieces.

I would argue that the Meccano elements are simply tossed aside, because it's more fun to keep building with the Lego, because it works. People are enjoying the discussion- and it is very one-sided in this thread.

Is it lazy? Yep. It totally is. Blind adherence to IT, and refusing to acknowledge differing viewpoints/interpretations doesn't demonstrate a working knowledge of critical thinking. People raising aspects of the game as possibly supporting IT, or asking if it could be related to the theory, doesn't necessarily mean they are ignoring the case against it. The case against IT IMO requires a completely different perspective on the game, a different frame of reference, and it's easier to have that discussion elsewhere, in depth, than to continually change hats in this one.

I for one don't like the "Read the whole thing before you post" statements- there are 1000+ pages in this thread. Reading everything from page 1 onwards isn't a realistic expectation/requirement for participation in the discussion. So for people to throw that around I think is unfair. I say welcome, to you sir.

You've given the example of the child being viewed from different perspectives, and asked how it can be classed as evidence of IT if it can be made to fit so many shapes and forms. My answer would be that there is no such thing as evidence for/against Indoctrination theory. Some people look at that child in the context of the game, and see a kid who got blown up which had a deep effect on Shep, causing some form of PTSD. Others look at it and say 'Shep sees him, but no one else does".

Both points are valid, and depend on the interpretation of the person in question.

Case in point- I'm from Australia (that's why my English is so poor...). Millions of people in this country eat Vegemite everyday. My son, for example. My American friends on the other hand, can't stand it- they find it tastes disgusting.

So, how can millions of Australians be held up as evidence of 'Vegemite is tasty' when it can also be held up as evidence of "Man, that stuff is gross"?

It's because it's being viewed through a different framework, or a different perspective.

I for one would love to see a chart of the case for IT vs the case against, and weigh up each point/counter point on it's merits. I'm too lazy to do it myself but I think it would be a valuable tool in the discussion.

I for one hope you stick around and keep contributing to the thread- you put your points forward well, and a devils advocate or anti-IT voice is needed to keep things lively.

I also think if someone stops reading your posts and raises questions about a specific point you raise, maybe elaborate on that point, or engage in a discussion around that aspect. Getting uppity because someone didn't read everything doesn't really help. Cucubor's thoughts/ideas in this thread have been pretty cool over the last few hundred pages or so- worry less about how much they've read, and debate the points that grabbed them enough to make them stop reading and respond straight away. If you take a different perspective, they fact that they stopped early could be a compliment...

[Big Bad]

WRT to those quotes -

The fact that they were so explicit about promising to deliver the exact opposite of what they ostensibly did deliver, just seems fishy to me. I already thought we hadn't seen the true ending yet, but reading those quotes...there's just no way that they could have accidentally screwed up so badly. I look forward to the "real" ending to Shepard's story.

[Dwailing]

Big Bad wrote...

WRT to those quotes -

The fact that they were so explicit about promising to deliver the exact opposite of what they ostensibly did deliver, just seems fishy to me. I already thought we hadn't seen the true ending yet, but reading those quotes...there's just no way that they could have accidentally screwed up so badly. I look forward to the "real" ending to Shepard's story.

Agreed.  They fulfilled all the promises, as far as I can remember with my possibly selective memory, they made with the exception of the endings.  Something is up, and we must hold the line until then!

[Eshaye]

I find it really amusing that this isn't more accepted, the evidence is there. And I wasn't even looking for them, I just took the endings as they were at face value. But after reading the thread.....

I can't unsee it... It makes too much sense.

[FLYING GRENADE11]

This pleases me.

[NS Wizdum]

Eshaye wrote...

I find it really amusing that this isn't more accepted, the evidence is there. And I wasn't even looking for them, I just took the endings as they were at face value. But after reading the thread.....

I can't unsee it... It makes too much sense.

Its called hindsight bias. The tendancy of an individual to disregard an outcome as "obvious", after having already viewed the outcome.

[mauro2222]

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

[ky0dar]

Spiderman_2028 wrote..

Case in point- I'm from Australia (that's why my English is so poor...). Millions of people in this country eat Vegemite everyday. My son, for example. My American friends on the other hand, can't stand it- they find it tastes disgusting.

So, how can millions of Australians be held up as evidence of 'Vegemite is tasty' when it can also be held up as evidence of "Man, that stuff is gross"?

On the other hand, I too am Australian and the smell of that stuff makes me nauseous.
 Is this evidence of "No True Scotsman" fallacy? Or, as you say, different strokes for different folks?

[CesarSan]

If the ending is happening in Shepard's mind then what's happens outside of it? Does it matter if he overcomes the indoctrination if everything else is still the same and he is half dead in London?

[ky0dar]

NS Wizdum wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

I find it really amusing that this isn't more accepted, the evidence is there. And I wasn't even looking for them, I just took the endings as they were at face value. But after reading the thread.....

I can't unsee it... It makes too much sense.

Its called hindsight bias. The tendancy of an individual to disregard an outcome as "obvious", after having already viewed the outcome.

Um, Eshaye, you TOTALLY shot yourself in the foot there.
 You're wondering why more people don't accept it, but you yourself didn't think of it until you read the thread. I will admit, i thought of a dream before reading up, but indoctrination makes more sense TO ME.
 Some people might like the arty farty symbolism bollocks that has plot holes up the Grand Wazoo. Hey, some people like Twilight. Some people like Neighbours. I on the other hand, don't.
 
 If you only realised the "Evidence" after reading a thread, then it wasn't obvious at all. It is was obvious, you would have come to the conclusioni independently.

[Eshaye]

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet. Indoctrination is the main theme of the games, always has been. I've always loved people argue against it but ME3 just cements that. 

Hindsight bias or not, at face value I'm left wondering who the hell came up with the child's stupid problem in the first place? Who made the catalyst? BUT if it's all a test of will and lies, and it's really just the heart of the Reapers speaking to Shepard then it makes perfect sense. We're not done with Mass Effect just yet. 

I can respect this could/has pissed people off who were expecting actual answers to what the Reapers are. And I did think that Shepard has been majorly indoctrinated since sometime in ME2 (Arrival? Rebirth?) and the child was illusion since I saw him in the first nightmare...  

[JTP117]

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

State them if you could please. It's good to see counter arguements if you have them.

[Spiderman_2028]

ky0dar wrote...

On the other hand, I too am Australian and the smell of that stuff makes me nauseous.
 Is this evidence of "No True Scotsman" fallacy? Or, as you say, different strokes for different folks?

Different strokes. Millions of Australians like Vegemite- and millions don't. But the Anti-IT argument tends to come back to "there's as much evidence for this as there is against it".

The comparison I made was to illustrate the ineffectiveness of that argument. You can't argue that all Australians like Vegemite, because many don't. You can't say "That stuff is disgusting", because to a lot of people, it isn't.

The Indoctrination Theory, as stated earlier, is more of a Working Hypothesis. The case supporting the idea is gradually being built up, with most points being raised, analysed, applied or disregarded as required against the Original premise - "is Shep being Indoctrinated/Is the ending a hallucination?" The counter points aren't being ignored- they just aren't required when applying the theory to the experience of the game. The counter points form a different prism through which to view the events- a prism that isn't generally being used in this thread.

Edit: Stoopid iPad....

Modifié par Spiderman_2028, 01 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[Spiderman_2028]

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

I don't see that as a problem. That's what generates 1000+ pages of discussion.

IT isn't bullet-proof, and may not be what Bioware were intending at all.

Until/unless a definitive statement is made, the speculation is fun. 

[mauro2222]

Eshaye wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet.

Well... the prothean VI its a clear counter point.
And the Reapers wanting to let Shepard go free of indoctrination.

Modifié par mauro2222, 01 avril 2012 - 04:04 .

[Cucobr]

JTP117 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

State them if you could please. It's good to see counter arguements if you have them.

be ready for the same ''points'' over and over again.
I dodn't answer those question as before, now I answer with a question.

Q: but but low EMS???? HAHaha! I found a plot hole in IT !! Hahaha!!!!11!!!1
R: Your Shepard dies in Mass Effect 2? what?! How could Shepard in Mass Effect 3?

[HairyMadDog1010]

mauro2222 wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet.

Well... the prothean VI its a clear counter point.

Oh yeah prothean indoctrination scaning always works, and they were never attacked by sleeper agents /sarcasm.

[Cucobr]

mauro2222 wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet.

Well... the prothean VI its a clear counter point.

No.

I already know what you will argue, but I want to see you write. Improve this your question to be answered.

[JTP117]

mauro2222 wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet.

Well... the prothean VI its a clear counter point.
And the Reapers wanting to let Shepard go free of indoctrination.

That is 2, and while they are good points they have both beem put to bed long ago. Also, Harbinger has said on several occasions that he desperately wants to indoctrinate Shepard. That is the only reason harbinger ordered that shepard NOT be killed but rather taken alive

[Cucobr]

damm...Hairy already answered.

Prothens VI can only detect two things:
- Machines
- Person full indoctrinated.

Person in process of indoctrination can pass the detection

[mauro2222]

JTP117 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet.

Well... the prothean VI its a clear counter point.
And the Reapers wanting to let Shepard go free of indoctrination.

That is 2, and while they are good points they have both beem put to bed long ago. Also, Harbinger has said on several occasions that he desperately wants to indoctrinate Shepard. That is the only reason harbinger ordered that shepard NOT be killed but rather taken alive

I didn't say killed... you actually reinforce my point. If Harbinger wants so desperatly indoctrinate Shepard... why allow him to "destroy" the reapers and free him of it, why actually explain him? and better yet, why destroy doesn't require more war assets to be unlocked?

[savagejuicebox]

mauro2222 wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet.

Well... the prothean VI its a clear counter point.
And the Reapers wanting to let Shepard go free of indoctrination.

That is 2, and while they are good points they have both beem put to bed long ago. Also, Harbinger has said on several occasions that he desperately wants to indoctrinate Shepard. That is the only reason harbinger ordered that shepard NOT be killed but rather taken alive

I didn't say killed... you actually reinforce my point. If Harbinger wants so desperatly indoctrinate Shepard... why allow him to "destroy" the reapers and free him of it, why actually explain him? and better yet, why destroy doesn't require more war assets to be unlocked?

Because they dont want you then, you arent a threat.... they dont care iif you try to struggle with indoctrination because you will struggle and you will fail, you dont have enough faith in your self and/or your reasources, therefore you just die, like in ME2.

[JTP117]

mauro2222 wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet.

Well... the prothean VI its a clear counter point.
And the Reapers wanting to let Shepard go free of indoctrination.

That is 2, and while they are good points they have both beem put to bed long ago. Also, Harbinger has said on several occasions that he desperately wants to indoctrinate Shepard. That is the only reason harbinger ordered that shepard NOT be killed but rather taken alive

I didn't say killed... you actually reinforce my point. If Harbinger wants so desperatly indoctrinate Shepard... why allow him to "destroy" the reapers and free him of it, why actually explain him? and better yet, why destroy doesn't require more war assets to be unlocked?

If you read again you will see that I refuted your point. you said that the reapers (insinuating all the reapers) want shepard to never be indoctrinated which is false on all accounts. And the Destroy option is explained in an entirely negative way. It is the only option that the child does not reccomend. It is shepards mind creating a way out of the indoctrination. Like "the kick" in inception

[mauro2222]

Cucobr wrote...

damm...Hairy already answered.

Prothens VI can only detect two things:
- Machines
- Person full indoctrinated.

Person in process of indoctrination can pass the detection

But Kai Leng works for TIM not the Reapers, so he's not fully indoctrinated, he's just a pro human supremacist son of a ****.

[Dwailing]

mauro2222 wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

damm...Hairy already answered.

Prothens VI can only detect two things:
- Machines
- Person full indoctrinated.

Person in process of indoctrination can pass the detection

But Kai Leng works for TIM not the Reapers, so he's not fully indoctrinated, he's just a pro human supremacist son of a ****.

Then, why did the VI say indoctrinated presence detected?

Edit: And of course there is the part about the Reaper implants in Leng.  That could explain it.  Or, it could also be the VI responding to Shepard.  We don't know for sure.

Modifié par Dwailing, 01 avril 2012 - 04:18 .