57139 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

mauro2222 wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

damm...Hairy already answered.

Prothens VI can only detect two things:
- Machines
- Person full indoctrinated.

Person in process of indoctrination can pass the detection

But Kai Leng works for TIM not the Reapers, so he's not fully indoctrinated, he's just a pro human supremacist son of a ****.

Dude! He had Reaper implants put straight into him! Does SHepard? NO.

[mauro2222]

JTP117 wrote...

If you read again you will see that I refuted your point. you said that the reapers (insinuating all the reapers) want shepard to never be indoctrinated which is false on all accounts. And the Destroy option is explained in an entirely negative way. It is the only option that the child does not reccomend. It is shepards mind creating a way out of the indoctrination. Like "the kick" in inception

I never said that, I said why would they want to free Shepard of indoctrination by proposing destroy. And it's obvious that its going to be explained in a negative way, you are killing them, they cease to exist, even star child.

[Leonia]

How do you know Kai Leng has Reaper implants and Shepard doesn't?

[mauro2222]

Dwailing wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

damm...Hairy already answered.

Prothens VI can only detect two things:
- Machines
- Person full indoctrinated.

Person in process of indoctrination can pass the detection

But Kai Leng works for TIM not the Reapers, so he's not fully indoctrinated, he's just a pro human supremacist son of a ****.

Then, why did the VI say indoctrinated presence detected?

Exactly... why it didn't say the same with Shepard.

[JTP117]

mauro2222 wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

damm...Hairy already answered.

Prothens VI can only detect two things:
- Machines
- Person full indoctrinated.

Person in process of indoctrination can pass the detection

But Kai Leng works for TIM not the Reapers, so he's not fully indoctrinated, he's just a pro human supremacist son of a ****.

Kai is now half machine. Like Darth vader only instead of surgical equiptment, he is half reaper tech, the VI could probably detect him a mile away

[JTP117]

mauro2222 wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

If you read again you will see that I refuted your point. you said that the reapers (insinuating all the reapers) want shepard to never be indoctrinated which is false on all accounts. And the Destroy option is explained in an entirely negative way. It is the only option that the child does not reccomend. It is shepards mind creating a way out of the indoctrination. Like "the kick" in inception

I never said that, I said why would they want to free Shepard of indoctrination by proposing destroy. And it's obvious that its going to be explained in a negative way, you are killing them, they cease to exist, even star child.

And in control they would be controlled by their mortal enemy. I don't quite see how that is a better option for them. If anything, Synthesis is the only one where the reapers truely win, why suggest control in a positive way?

[Dwailing]

mauro2222 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

damm...Hairy already answered.

Prothens VI can only detect two things:
- Machines
- Person full indoctrinated.

Person in process of indoctrination can pass the detection

But Kai Leng works for TIM not the Reapers, so he's not fully indoctrinated, he's just a pro human supremacist son of a ****.

Then, why did the VI say indoctrinated presence detected?

Exactly... why it didn't say the same with Shepard.

Wait, I don't think I made the point I was trying to make.

Modifié par Dwailing, 01 avril 2012 - 04:23 .

[HairyMadDog1010]

mauro2222 wrote...

Cucobr wrote...

damm...Hairy already answered.

Prothens VI can only detect two things:
- Machines
- Person full indoctrinated.

Person in process of indoctrination can pass the detection

But Kai Leng works for TIM not the Reapers, so he's not fully indoctrinated, he's just a pro human supremacist son of a ****.

He is fully indocted to TIM.

[n00bsauce2010]

DuskRose wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

JTP117 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

The problem with this theory is that it has as much points to support it as to go against it.

Really? I've yet to see a post actually convince me of that yet.

Well... the prothean VI its a clear counter point.
And the Reapers wanting to let Shepard go free of indoctrination.

That is 2, and while they are good points they have both beem put to bed long ago. Also, Harbinger has said on several occasions that he desperately wants to indoctrinate Shepard. That is the only reason harbinger ordered that shepard NOT be killed but rather taken alive

I didn't say killed... you actually reinforce my point. If Harbinger wants so desperatly indoctrinate Shepard... why allow him to "destroy" the reapers and free him of it, why actually explain him? and better yet, why destroy doesn't require more war assets to be unlocked?

I think that might have more to do with the nature of Indoctrination as opposed to the Reapers giving you the option.

Because you can't simpy indoctrinate someone like shepard by completely locking them out of free will. Someone as strong willed as shepard would easily call bullsh*t on it. They have to trick him into thinking the other options are a viable course of action in the grand scheme of things.

[Big Bad]

Honestly I don't think anybody, in the game or on the internet, has come up with a coherent dividing line between "fully" indoctrinated and "partially" indoctrinated.

[Dendio1]

They should put a sticky up about the prothean vi and its limitations

[ChuckieJ]

Big Bad wrote...

Honestly I don't think anybody, in the game or on the internet, has come up with a coherent dividing line between "fully" indoctrinated and "partially" indoctrinated.

I just think of it as a brainwashing process. I guess full indoctrination would be when you have no control left. Saren had a little bit left because if you choose the correct options, you can bring him out of it long enough for him to shoot himself in the head. You can be brainwashed and still make decisions (albeit in a confused state and perhaps based on lies).

[n00bsauce2010]

Big Bad wrote...

Honestly I don't think anybody, in the game or on the internet, has come up with a coherent dividing line between "fully" indoctrinated and "partially" indoctrinated.

We can assume through some of the logs during the reaper IFF mission in ME2.

Some of the early stages symptoms according to the logs: sudden changes in the environment like walls closing in, mixing up ones memories (specifically two scientists both talked about being married to the same women and doing the same exact things, later on they see a grey figure apear out of the wall)- from this we know reapers can mess with one's memories. Another scientist also talks about closing his eyes and seeing it and everyone.

But you're right.. it would be very different for strong willed vs. weak willed individuals.

If idt is a possibility, shepard never actually faces any of these.. other than the reaper ability to mess with one's memories.

And according to the codex, which I was talking about yesterday.. it says the reaper exerts influence over the limbic system. The lymbic system includes the (brain, brain stem, etc) So that's a pretty broad area. The limbic system controls dreams and memories.. so the area that reapers can influence is a rather large one.

[Spiderman_2028]

mauro2222 wrote...

I never said that, I said why would they want to free Shepard of indoctrination by proposing destroy. And it's obvious that its going to be explained in a negative way, you are killing them, they cease to exist, even star child.

In looking at the game and applying IT, you need to view the entire experience from being blasted by Harbinger onwards as a hallucination- or at the very least, the encounter with the star-child.

So, Destroy can be presented as the only option, because it doesn't actually DO anything. It's the Reapers' way of saying "Let the baby have his bottle, because we're killing him regardless". If destroy is your only option (or control, if you saved the collector base in ME2), you have a low EMS. The theory proposes that with a low EMS you have no hope of defeating the reapers- you just don't have the numbers.
Also, there are three variations of the destroy ending. The one you encounter with the lowest EMS destroys the reapers, Earth and everyone on it, and the Mass Relays. The second and third are different- with the third being the only one (when your EMS is high enough) that shows what is presumed to be Shep taking a breath in rubble that is assumed to be back on earth. The destroy ending you get when it is your only option is far less optimistic/rewarding than the ending you are shown when  your EMS is high. Indoctrination Theory contends that the 'best' ending is the only one that shows Shep 'surviving' the indoctrination attempt.

[Leonia]

DuskRose wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

How do you know Kai Leng has Reaper implants and Shepard doesn't?

TIMmy knew the effect of Reaper tech on people. He wouldn't be willing to risk altering Shepard like that

But after the Grayson affair he's willing to do it to his best agent? 

[ChuckieJ]

<3

Dendio1 wrote...

Holding the line....starting to weaken..why would bioware makes us wait a month for the ending

Must resist....

Even though this game is somewhat shorter than the past ones, not everyone can play through it as fast as some of us. I rushed it because I didn't want to get spoiled ( and I heard all the uproar about the ending almost immediately). But imagine a family man or woman who might be able to only steal away for 4-8 hours a week to play. That's 16-32 hours on one game and they still might not finish it before PAX East. Then there are some that didn't start due to the face import bug. You've been waiting a month. I've been waiting 3 weeks. They aren't done yet.

[Dwailing]

Dendio1 wrote...

They should put a sticky up about the prothean vi and its limitations

That could be useful.  Also, Leng must have been in the temple already to have killed the Asari.  I think the only reason it stopped talking was because it was programed to only stop talking to an indoc'd individual if he asks a specific question, i.e. what is the Catalyst.  Otherwise, why would it have said anything in the first place if it couldn't talk at all while around indoc'd people?  OK, time to head to bed.  If there are any issues with my explation, please correct them.

[Big Bad]

ChuckieJ wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

Honestly I don't think anybody, in the game or on the internet, has come up with a coherent dividing line between "fully" indoctrinated and "partially" indoctrinated.

I just think of it as a brainwashing process. I guess full indoctrination would be when you have no control left. Saren had a little bit left because if you choose the correct options, you can bring him out of it long enough for him to shoot himself in the head. You can be brainwashed and still make decisions (albeit in a confused state and perhaps based on lies).

Yeah, you're right.  I guess what I meant was that when it comes to the Prothean VI, we really don't have any idea how far down the road to indoctrination a person has to be before they can be detected.  Presumably (and I obviously don't know this as a fact), there must be a point where indoctrination has been started but can't yet be detected.  Saying that this is why Shepard isn't detected by the VI doesn't feel like a very satisfactory answer to me, but without additonal information I don't know how we would provide a better one.

[JTP117]

leonia42 wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

How do you know Kai Leng has Reaper implants and Shepard doesn't?

TIMmy knew the effect of Reaper tech on people. He wouldn't be willing to risk altering Shepard like that

But after the Grayson affair he's willing to do it to his best agent? 

Grayson was weak willed and indoctrinated as an experiment (a way to see what it does to people) grayson was a sort of prototype for people like kaileng and the cerby troopers. Through allowing the reapers to do what they would with Grayson, they learned how bodily indoc worked so as to learn how to counteract it and preserve some humanity in the subject

[ky0dar]

OK, with this "why do the reapers want to let Shepard go" - they DON'T
What this is is a mind rape, to get Shepard to submit to the indoctrination.
By not acknowledging that he wants to destroy the Reapers, that would make him suspicious. In a Low EMS scenario, the Destroy represents Shepard waving his dick about but ultimately destroying himself because he hasn't united the galaxy. (sorry, I played Man!Shep) Without all those allies, he doesn't have as much to fight FOR so the destruction is his own. With a high EMS, his choice of destruction is the destruction of the Reapers and they know that he might actually fight back (because he has the allies to fight for). In this scenario, they dangle the carrot of a peaceful alternative because he might actually win. In this scenario, they do all they can to get him to give in.
This is how i understand it to be - that at low EMS they're willing to destroy him, but at a High EMS he's more valuable indoctrinated or huskified. Does that make with the sense-make?