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[n00bsauce2010]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The way I see it, Shepard was indoctrinated by Object Rho.. If the player never did arrival, it changes to "all your time spent aroud reapers" simple dialog change.. same result.

Seriously though, disregarding all in-game evidence, if you look at the real life evidence, in particular dev quotes, with the underlying message of indoctrination, the quotes make more sense... maybe they weren't lying after all...

If the events are canon to shepards story no matter what then it makes sense.

Also the quotes do make sense. Have the devs shot down any other theories about the endings? Because this one they always seem to subtly hint at. It just seems weird to me.

[Jadebaby]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...


If the events are canon to shepards story no matter what then it makes sense.

Also the quotes do make sense. Have the devs shot down any other theories about the endings? Because this one they always seem to subtly hint at. It just seems weird to me.

No, im pretty sure that if you don't do arrival, it was sum alliance soldier, at the start you're in custody for working with cerberus and the batarians only mention the alliance destroying the systems... If i'm wrong then great, if im right, it doesn't really matter coz as I said, simple dialog can fix it...

In a game with SO many variables... One little side-story can't derail where they choose to take it.

[ky0dar]

If you don't do Arrival, Shepard is on trial for associating with Cerberus. I think that the Batarians do the Arrival thing and that that affects their war assets contribution. I think.
But i know that Arrival is not blanket canon. It's only canon for your Shepard if you did it. Ditto Shadow Broker.

[Dendio1]

Everyone has their own personal playthrough, but the canon plot involves all of the dlc. Arrival is canon whether you bought it or not. The dlc was not what if scenarios like some of the dragon age ones. The DLC was canon story, from kasumi's dinner party crash to shadow broker to arrival.

Modifié par Dendio1, 02 avril 2012 - 01:04 .

[Macross]

It's like Shadow Broker- if you didn't do Shadow Broker than Liara took down the Broker herself. I also recall reading somewhere that if you didn't do Arrival it was done by a bunch of Alliance Solider who all died (not sure where I read it, I think it may have been TV Tropes... so reliability is in question).

Also, you know Object Rho isn't really needed for Shep's indoctrination- it's just another bit of reaper tech his been around. What's good about Arrival indoctrination wise is not Object Rho but what it reveals about Indoctrination itself (I.e the guilt trip dreams)

[n00bsauce2010]

ky0dar wrote...

If you don't do Arrival, Shepard is on trial for associating with Cerberus. I think that the Batarians do the Arrival thing and that that affects their war assets contribution. I think.
But i know that Arrival is not blanket canon. It's only canon for your Shepard if you did it. Ditto Shadow Broker.

yeah but liara is the shadow broker no matter what you do.

[ROTTOK Crapgame]

Many games treat previous game DLC as canon, I know the reason for your grounding is for your Cerberus ties if you hadn't completed 'Arrival' in ME2, What I want to know is this... Does Shep still own the apartment on that world that you win in ME1 in the DLC 'Pinnacle Station' Because it would make a nice holiday home for me and Liara!

[ROTTOK Crapgame]

Just to say... I think this discussion proves the point of how badly written, and ill conceived the current endings are. SO many choices, so many different Shepard's, we all played the same 3 games but 1093 pages of debate later and we are still discussing career choices, please take note Bioware, we are only complaining because Commander Shepard has got under our skin, and it's an itch we have to scratch!

[n00bsauce2010]

ROTTOK Crapgame wrote...

Just to say... I think this discussion proves the point of how badly written, and ill conceived the current endings are. SO many choices, so many different Shepard's, we all played the same 3 games but 1093 pages of debate later and we are still discussing career choices, please take note Bioware, we are only complaining because Commander Shepard has got under our skin, and it's an itch we have to scratch!

The itch doesn't go away though. that is the problem.

[ky0dar]

No, Arrival happened. But it didn't happen for Shepard. In the same way that if you didn't do LotSB, Liara hired some mercs and raided the base to become SB.
Mass Effect has been about the player controlling Shepard, if your Shep didn't do X and Y, something like X and Y happened for someone else, but not for Shep. So yes, the Alpha Relay was destuctinated, that's canon, but if you didn't play Arrival, Shep didn't do it.

[Macross]

Okay now that we are talking about Arrival can I point out several things (that I bet have already been mentioned) that from the DLC . These are character logs.

“Dr. Kenson: The Project is almost complete. I thought I’d feel a
sense of accomplishment but instead… I feel dread. I can’t help but
think we are doing something terrible.”


This is passage is very similar to the feeling the StarChild tries to give you about the Destroy ending.

“Scientist: I woke up this morning in a cold sweat. The nightmare was
back, the one with the enormous starship crawling through the Citadel
and all my friends turning to dust. Even now I can see it in my mind.
Why won’t this stop?”


The starship bit isn't important, the bit about you're friends turning to dust is again very reminsent of the dream shepard is having about the Child burning.  The general passage shows the indoctrination trying to bring up a feeling of no hope and despair which is again the purpose of those dreams (i.e in the dream Thane whisper quite out of charaterily; "Even somethings are beyound even you"- that's parapharsed)

“Guard: When it’s silent, when there’s no one else around, I can hear
it. Whispers in the back of my mind, I can’t tell what they’re saying. I
spoke to Doctor Kenson about it and she seemed to understand. What the
hell is going on?”


Again silent whisper are in Shepard's nightmares as well (which may also prove how Shepard was not fully indoctrinated or at the early stages as the Whisper where only in his nightmares at that point and not heard explicitly in reality)

“Dr. Kenson: The longer we’re here, the more I’m convinced the Project
must be stopped. We simply don’t know enough about what the Reapers
want. It’s foolish to assume that the Reapers mean doom for the galaxy.
Legends say they’ve come through before, and yet life continues doesn’t
it?"

That is basically the BS Starchild tried to sell you about how the reapers perserve life and aren't super genocidal machines.

[n00bsauce2010]

Macross wrote...

Okay now that we are talking about Arrival can I point out several things (that I bet have already been mentioned) that from the DLC . These are character logs.

“Dr. Kenson: The Project is almost complete. I thought I’d feel a
sense of accomplishment but instead… I feel dread. I can’t help but
think we are doing something terrible.”


This is passage is very similar to the feeling the StarChild tries to give you about the Destroy ending.

“Scientist: I woke up this morning in a cold sweat. The nightmare was
back, the one with the enormous starship crawling through the Citadel
and all my friends turning to dust. Even now I can see it in my mind.
Why won’t this stop?”


The starship bit isn't important, the bit about you're friends turning to dust is again very reminsent of the dream shepard is having about the Child burning.  The general passage shows the indoctrination trying to bring up a feeling of no hope and despair which is again the purpose of those dreams (i.e in the dream Thane whisper quite out of charaterily; "Even somethings are beyound even you"- that's parapharsed)

“Guard: When it’s silent, when there’s no one else around, I can hear
it. Whispers in the back of my mind, I can’t tell what they’re saying. I
spoke to Doctor Kenson about it and she seemed to understand. What the
hell is going on?”


Again silent whisper are in Shepard's nightmares as well (which may also prove how Shepard was not fully indoctrinated or at the early stages as the Whisper where only in his nightmares at that point and not heard explicitly in reality)

“Dr. Kenson: The longer we’re here, the more I’m convinced the Project
must be stopped. We simply don’t know enough about what the Reapers
want. It’s foolish to assume that the Reapers mean doom for the galaxy.
Legends say they’ve come through before, and yet life continues doesn’t
it?"

That is basically the BS Starchild tried to sell you about how the reapers perserve life and aren't super genocidal machines.

you've confirmed a few things. But the most important is that the indoctrination process CAN INDEED mess with your dreams.

[ocea]

I sure do hope it is just a hallucination

[ky0dar]

Macross wrote...

Okay now that we are talking about Arrival can I point out several things (that I bet have already been mentioned) that from the DLC . These are character logs.
*snip*

That is basically the BS Starchild tried to sell you about how the reapers perserve life and aren't super genocidal machines.

This sums up how I feel about indoctrination. It's not a click of the fingers "Oh, now i'm indoctrinated" it's a subtle reprogramming of the mind to come to terms with accepting the Reapers' direct commands.
 For instance, ME1!shep would blast the crap out of any synthetic. But after Mnemosyne, he's willing to accept that maybe the geth are a bit of all right. Come ME3, he (yeah, i keep writing he, sorry) can easily side with the geth over the quarians.
 If the geth are OK, and the geth are synthetic, then maybe the Reapers, who are also synthetic, are just misunderstood. After all, once we understood the geth, they seemed ok. Maybe we should just invite Harbinger around for a cuppa and talk this out.

[LiarasShield]

All I know is that we need answers

[LiarasShield]

This was a fan made ending I wonder what fellow liara fans think

[Eshaye]

Yeah the whole Geth mission really messed with me, I would have picked red if star brat hadn't threatened the Geth. I didn't want to kill them so I went green. lol Sucka.

[Macross]

LiarasShield wrote...

All I know is that we need answers

But... but... Speculaton... For everyone!

The thing about indoctrination is that I don't believe it was ever ment to be this super fast process (the super fast process was always huskifcation). Although it can be done rapidily (which as the codex says destorys mental cabilitly) the pure reasoning behind it was less about controlling the person's mind but rathering needing the person to believe what they (the reapers) want them to.

It's been shown that Indoc can be fought of, by holding steadyfast to your ideals (e.g Shepard showing Saren how he'd betrayed his principles breaking indoc long enought for Saren to off himself... same thing with the TIM at the end, if it were real). And if you realise the Destroy ending is the only one where Shepard completely holds onto to his ideals... his spent the whole game telling TIM that TIM was wrong- yet control spits in that ideas face, at the very start of the GodChild/Choice Machine scene he tells the GodChild that Organics aren't machines- yet Synthesis turns everyone in the galaxy into said machines. No matter what the scarfice is (all synthetic life), the destroy ending is the only one where Shepard fully holds onto his ideals and destroys the reapers- breaking the cycle for good.

[ROTTOK Crapgame]

LiarasShield wrote...

This was a fan made ending I wonder what fellow liara fans think

Watched it twice, Liara FTW!

Whoever made that needs a medal, they should send it to Bioware with a copy of their CV / Resume.

Modifié par ROTTOK Crapgame, 02 avril 2012 - 01:39 .

[llbountyhunter]

ID makes me feel better about picking red in my first play through without realizing why.... I broke free! lol..

so, what did any of you all pick- just trying to get an idea here of IDs actual strength on players...

[Jadebaby]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Macross wrote...

[/i]That is basically the BS Starchild tried to sell you about how the reapers perserve life and aren't super genocidal machines.

you've confirmed a few things. But the most important is that the indoctrination process CAN INDEED mess with your dreams.

It's also worth mentioning that when you wake up from the 2nd "dream" you have a datapad in your hand and it appears as though you are standing up...... from what I remember anyway.

Edit: Thus proving it more as a hallucination than a dream.. Unless Edi turned the gravity field off because Shepard likes to sleep standing up...

Lots of speculation!

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 02 avril 2012 - 01:42 .

[n00bsauce2010]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Macross wrote...

[/i]That is basically the BS Starchild tried to sell you about how the reapers perserve life and aren't super genocidal machines.

you've confirmed a few things. But the most important is that the indoctrination process CAN INDEED mess with your dreams.

It's also worth mentioning that when you wake up from the 2nd "dream" you have a datapad in your hand and it appears as though you are standing up...... from what I remember anyway.

definitely weird. I also noticed that after the dream sequences shepard is rubbing his forehead... *headaches anyone????*