57139 réponses à ce sujet

[GBGriffin]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

I find it hilarious that you conveniently dodged that post. The irony in what you just said. Because you do it 90% of the time bud.

What argument are you presenting? I haven't really seen anything other than "I think the IDT is wrong because I said so" not really an argument. Just more of a statement.

I presented the following argument:

GBGriffin wrote...

That's a fair enough point, and one that I will indulge.

It is logical to assume that the ending was rushed and that, while true indoctrination may have been on the table at some point, it was scrapped along with the mechanic. This theory would support leaving in evidence that they simply didn't want to redo for time or financial constraints.

Or is that not logical?

 

How is it flawed?

[balance5050]

ynh wrote...

BluSoldier wrote...

Guys, as much as I support this theory, some of our posts make us look like jerks. Please keep it civil.

+1 seriously. Everyone has different opinions. If they are voicing them in a way that is offensive, you've got a report button

Going back onto topic, I personally feel that this theory does have some merit. The major problem I have with it is that Bioware did not make the hints that support this theory clear enough (if that was their intent). If you are going to hint at stuff like this, it needs to be done in a way that all players can see and understand.

I think it's great, it truly is a difficult mystery or mind puzzle! I know a lot of people will not see it like that, but after seeing just a few speculations, I had an amazing "eureka" moment that had my emotions doing backflips. Whether we get charged for DLC or not I will always remember that revelation.

[lex0r11]

byne wrote...

I dont believe I warrant such an enthusiastic yes 


Edit: I win page 1100. Please refer to video containing enthusiastic yes for my reaction to this.

Damnit, got by Byne.

Is it too late to remember Marauder Shields?

Modifié par lex0r11, 02 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[n00bsauce2010]

GBGriffin wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

I find it hilarious that you conveniently dodged that post. The irony in what you just said. Because you do it 90% of the time bud.

What argument are you presenting? I haven't really seen anything other than "I think the IDT is wrong because I said so" not really an argument. Just more of a statement.

I presented the following argument:

GBGriffin wrote...

That's a fair enough point, and one that I will indulge.

It is logical to assume that the ending was rushed and that, while true indoctrination may have been on the table at some point, it was scrapped along with the mechanic. This theory would support leaving in evidence that they simply didn't want to redo for time or financial constraints.

Or is that not logical?

 

How is it flawed?

We've already come to the conlusion that the Final Hours app can be dismissed due to Casey Hudsons own statement. Just because they scrapped the mechanic doesn't mean they scrapped the idea. He also said don't take what you find in the app as canon. We're not... we're merely saying that what the app shows doesn't really prove/disprove anything.

[CLB17]

DuskRose wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

DuskRose wrote...


Alright, this is the last time I'll post this, promise, but I think the implications of my idea actually can prove/tie together several things for IT. (Plus no one commented on how brilliant I am.< --Kidding)

There are two methods for how Reapers take control of organics: 1) Physically (See Husks) and 2) Mentally (See Matriarch Benezia)

To get greatest control while allowing a person to keep some of their independence, they combine the two, (See Saren and TIMmy)

For (2) they use more subtle things, like noises, in order to create what I like to think of as an extracorporeally inflicted schizophrenia-like disorder. The hallucinations, changes in thinking and emotions, as well as alterations in personality point to an organic disorder instigated by the Reapers. It would be nearly impossible to tell the difference. And given the fact that it has different severities in different people... it'd be next to impossible to detect. Now think about how Javik and Vigil talk about some Protheans came in as sleeper agents...

If that's the case, think about how insidious indoc really is, if it's an engineered mental disorder. Think about how times of stress affect those who have mental issues in RL, and then match that up to how quick indoc can spread, or how it can lay dormant for years.

That's actually a pretty interesting concept and seems pretty viable to me since it'd basically reformat some of their neural pathways.

And it explains somethings like why you can see the kid at the beginning of the game, and those dreams, but Vendetta doesn't identify you as indoctrinated on Thessia.

I think that the prothean VIs can only detect indoctrination when the subject has reaper implants in them. That would explain why Kai Leng was noticed by the VI but not shepard if he is indoctrinated. On a side note, saren already had sovereign's impants in him when he went to Ilos, which would be how Vigil noticed him. Javic says that his people were betrayed by Reaper sleeper agents posing as refugees. If Prothean VIs could detect any kind of indoctrination then that shouldn't of happend.

Modifié par CLB17, 02 avril 2012 - 04:28 .

[ynh]

balance5050 wrote...

ynh wrote...

BluSoldier wrote...

Guys, as much as I support this theory, some of our posts make us look like jerks. Please keep it civil.

+1 seriously. Everyone has different opinions. If they are voicing them in a way that is offensive, you've got a report button

Going back onto topic, I personally feel that this theory does have some merit. The major problem I have with it is that Bioware did not make the hints that support this theory clear enough (if that was their intent). If you are going to hint at stuff like this, it needs to be done in a way that all players can see and understand.

I think it's great, it truly is a difficult mystery or mind puzzle! I know a lot of people will not see it like that, but after seeing just a few speculations, I had an amazing "eureka" moment that had my emotions doing backflips. Whether we get charged for DLC or not I will always remember that revelation.

I will admit that it is certainly a really cool thread the storyline can take. In my mind, IT is really the only theory that has flipped the spectrum of my feelings on the ending almost completely. However as I've stated, I feel that there are some issues that need to be worked out. There are a number of points people have made that I feel are grasping at straws (though its not to say other points are not valid).

[lomar1o]

CLB17 wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

DuskRose wrote...


Alright, this is the last time I'll post this, promise, but I think the implications of my idea actually can prove/tie together several things for IT. (Plus no one commented on how brilliant I am.< --Kidding)

There are two methods for how Reapers take control of organics: 1) Physically (See Husks) and 2) Mentally (See Matriarch Benezia)

To get greatest control while allowing a person to keep some of their independence, they combine the two, (See Saren and TIMmy)

For (2) they use more subtle things, like noises, in order to create what I like to think of as an extracorporeally inflicted schizophrenia-like disorder. The hallucinations, changes in thinking and emotions, as well as alterations in personality point to an organic disorder instigated by the Reapers. It would be nearly impossible to tell the difference. And given the fact that it has different severities in different people... it'd be next to impossible to detect. Now think about how Javik and Vigil talk about some Protheans came in as sleeper agents...

If that's the case, think about how insidious indoc really is, if it's an engineered mental disorder. Think about how times of stress affect those who have mental issues in RL, and then match that up to how quick indoc can spread, or how it can lay dormant for years.

That's actually a pretty interesting concept and seems pretty viable to me since it'd basically reformat some of their neural pathways.

And it explains somethings like why you can see the kid at the beginning of the game, and those dreams, but Vendetta doesn't identify you as indoctrinated on Thessia.

I think that the prothean VIs can only detect indoctrination when the subject has reaper implants in them. That would explain why Kai Leng was noticed by the VI but not shepard if he is indoctrinated. On a side note, saren already had sovereign's impants in him when he went to Ilos, which would be how Vigil noticed him.

totally agree!

[GBGriffin]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...


We've already come to the conlusion that the Final Hours app can be dismissed due to Casey Hudsons own statement. Just because they scrapped the mechanic doesn't mean they scrapped the idea. He also said don't take what you find in the app as canon. We're not... we're merely saying that what the app shows doesn't really prove/disprove anything.

If they scrapped the mechanic, why wouldn't it be logical to assume they scrapped the idea? Without the mechanic, they have no means of implementing the idea, and as such, it would still be poor writing if it takes a forum and Twitter to come to a conclusion that should have been evident in the game.

If they have an idea, but no means of actually implementing it, then why stick with the idea?

[savagejuicebox]

DuskRose wrote...

ynh wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

ynh wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

So, I've got a quick question to get us back on topic: How do you think indoctrination actually takes place? Like the mechanics of it? I think answering that question helps pave the way for stronger support for IT.

There is a whole article on it here.

Essentially, you need to be exposed to Reaper materials (such as artifacts). These artifacts generated fields that slowly change an organic's thinking to be sympathetic towards whatever the Reaper wants.

Note that Shepard has quite a large amount of contact with Reaper style materials (the largest being Object Rho).

Yeah, but HOW do the fields change organic's thinking?

Rob Psyence wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

So, I've got a quick question to get us back on topic: How do you think indoctrination actually takes place? Like the mechanics of it? I think answering that question helps pave the way for stronger support for IT.

Well physically the reaper signals interfere with the electrical activity of the brain which in real life has been proven to make people see things/hallucinate. (There's something called a "god helmet" that uses magnetic waves to a certain part of the brain to make people "see god")

Fair enough, but indoc lasts basically for forever, even if the person leaves Reaper artifacts behind. Why?

@n00b: I think TIM would've been very anti-Reaper tech in Shepard

I am not sure. I don't think the series ever talks about how it is done. all I can remember is them talking about the symptoms.

Alright, this is the last time I'll post this, promise, but I think the implications of my idea actually can prove/tie together several things for IT. (Plus no one commented on how brilliant I am.< --Kidding)

There are two methods for how Reapers take control of organics: 1) Physically (See Husks) and 2) Mentally (See Matriarch Benezia)

To get greatest control while allowing a person to keep some of their independence, they combine the two, (See Saren and TIMmy)

For (2) they use more subtle things, like noises, in order to create what I like to think of as an extracorporeally inflicted schizophrenia-like disorder. The hallucinations, changes in thinking and emotions, as well as alterations in personality point to an organic disorder instigated by the Reapers. It would be nearly impossible to tell the difference. And given the fact that it has different severities in different people... it'd be next to impossible to detect. Now think about how Javik and Vigil talk about some Protheans came in as sleeper agents...

If that's the case, think about how insidious indoc really is, if it's an engineered mental disorder. Think about how times of stress affect those who have mental issues in RL, and then match that up to how quick indoc can spread, or how it can lay dormant for years.

I read your comment before, and it makes a lot of sense. I wanted to reply but i had to go to work, thank you for reposting i was having trouble finding it again. Very insightful.

[Jadebaby]

CLB17 wrote...

I think that the prothean VIs can only detect indoctrination when the subject has reaper implants in them. That would explain why Kai Leng was noticed by the VI but not shepard if he is indoctrinated. On a side note, saren already had sovereign's impants in him when he went to Ilos, which would be how Vigil noticed him.

Agreed

[N7L4D]

byne wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Byne is here!!!!!!!?????

I dont believe I warrant such an enthusiastic yes 


Edit: I win page 1100. Please refer to video containing enthusiastic yes for my reaction to this.

Here you go for 1100 

[n00bsauce2010]

GBGriffin wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...


We've already come to the conlusion that the Final Hours app can be dismissed due to Casey Hudsons own statement. Just because they scrapped the mechanic doesn't mean they scrapped the idea. He also said don't take what you find in the app as canon. We're not... we're merely saying that what the app shows doesn't really prove/disprove anything.

If they scrapped the mechanic, why wouldn't it be logical to assume they scrapped the idea? Without the mechanic, they have no means of implementing the idea, and as such, it would still be poor writing if it takes a forum and Twitter to come to a conclusion that should have been evident in the game.

If they have an idea, but no means of actually implementing it, then why stick with the idea?

They could've just decided that it would be easier to move it on to the player to figure out on their own. Who knows for sure really. I highly doubt bioware would've just given up on an idea like that though..especially being known for plot twists. All I can say is that the devs have told us that the final hours app shouldn't be taken as canon. And I'll hold onto that for now.

If IDT is true, it only means it was executed in an extremely sloppy manner. Brilliant but sloppy nontheless. Most fans will probably forgive them for it and acknowledge the idea was in some ways smart. I don't think they anticipated the outrage. But for now they've figured out a way to stop it. ex: the child's play charity for mass effect 3 was shut down. And Dr.Rays statement has thrown an acknwlodgement of victory in the minds of some fans.

Modifié par n00bsauce2010, 02 avril 2012 - 04:27 .

[ynh]

CLB17 wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

DuskRose wrote...


Alright, this is the last time I'll post this, promise, but I think the implications of my idea actually can prove/tie together several things for IT. (Plus no one commented on how brilliant I am.< --Kidding)

There are two methods for how Reapers take control of organics: 1) Physically (See Husks) and 2) Mentally (See Matriarch Benezia)

To get greatest control while allowing a person to keep some of their independence, they combine the two, (See Saren and TIMmy)

For (2) they use more subtle things, like noises, in order to create what I like to think of as an extracorporeally inflicted schizophrenia-like disorder. The hallucinations, changes in thinking and emotions, as well as alterations in personality point to an organic disorder instigated by the Reapers. It would be nearly impossible to tell the difference. And given the fact that it has different severities in different people... it'd be next to impossible to detect. Now think about how Javik and Vigil talk about some Protheans came in as sleeper agents...

If that's the case, think about how insidious indoc really is, if it's an engineered mental disorder. Think about how times of stress affect those who have mental issues in RL, and then match that up to how quick indoc can spread, or how it can lay dormant for years.

That's actually a pretty interesting concept and seems pretty viable to me since it'd basically reformat some of their neural pathways.

And it explains somethings like why you can see the kid at the beginning of the game, and those dreams, but Vendetta doesn't identify you as indoctrinated on Thessia.

I think that the prothean VIs can only detect indoctrination when the subject has reaper implants in them. That would explain why Kai Leng was noticed by the VI but not shepard if he is indoctrinated. On a side note, saren already had sovereign's impants in him when he went to Ilos, which would be how Vigil noticed him.

Also keep in mind that Shepard isn't looking for the information for the Reaper's gain. He is doing it because he is vehmently opposed to them. I think it goes without saying that Shepard's mental fortitude is much greater than Saren's or TIM's. Both of those men were effectively blinded by their ideals. This is what made them so suceptible to indoctrination.

Both of these men were power hungry. TIM wanted control, Saren wanted the artifacts.

[GBGriffin]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...


They could've just decided that it would be easier to move it on to the player to figure out on their own. Who knows for sure really. I highly doubt bioware would've just given up on an idea like that though..especially being known for plot twists. All I can say is that the devs have told us that the final hours app shouldn't be taken as canon. And I'll hold onto that for now.

Did they actually say it shouldn't be taken as canon, or that it shouldn't be taken as an official BioWare product? If I'm remembering correctly, they said the latter, that it wasn't an officially sponsored app and they weren't making money off of it.

Do you you have a link to their remarks about its canonical implications?

[Rob Psyence]

GBGriffin wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...


We've already come to the conlusion that the Final Hours app can be dismissed due to Casey Hudsons own statement. Just because they scrapped the mechanic doesn't mean they scrapped the idea. He also said don't take what you find in the app as canon. We're not... we're merely saying that what the app shows doesn't really prove/disprove anything.

If they scrapped the mechanic, why wouldn't it be logical to assume they scrapped the idea? Without the mechanic, they have no means of implementing the idea, and as such, it would still be poor writing if it takes a forum and Twitter to come to a conclusion that should have been evident in the game.

If they have an idea, but no means of actually implementing it, then why stick with the idea?

No means of implementing, care to state how they don't have the means when it can be done with psychological cues and suggestions. Last time i checked indoctorination is a big part of the whole series and is mentioned left and right.

[savagejuicebox]

double post

Modifié par savagejuicebox, 02 avril 2012 - 04:39 .

[GBGriffin]

Rob Psyence wrote...


No means of implementing, care to state how they don't have the means when it can be done with psychological cues and suggestions. Last time i checked indoctorination is a big part of the whole series and is mentioned left and right.

Well, to be fair, that is more suggesting an idea rather than implementing it. To me, that information sets the groundwork for a mechanic, which they scrapped. It has to be there for that mechanic to even make sense.

If they scrap the mechanic (i.e. if they planned on it, but then dropped it at the end), then they can't exactly go back and undo everything. They have to leave what's in the game as is and end it as such, without their mechanic being implemented.

[Lyria]

Couldn't the level of Indoctrination be greater once the Prothean VI meets Shepard a second time, hence the "my security is gone so you can haz the deets" line?

Does it take awhile for the VI to warm up its indoctrination detectors?

[n00bsauce2010]

GBGriffin wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...


They could've just decided that it would be easier to move it on to the player to figure out on their own. Who knows for sure really. I highly doubt bioware would've just given up on an idea like that though..especially being known for plot twists. All I can say is that the devs have told us that the final hours app shouldn't be taken as canon. And I'll hold onto that for now.

Did they actually say it shouldn't be taken as canon, or that it shouldn't be taken as an official BioWare product? If I'm remembering correctly, they said the latter, that it wasn't an officially sponsored app and they weren't making money off of it.

Do you you have a link to their remarks about its canonical implications?

I'm sorry but I refuse to beleive that a dev team would simply give up on a good idea. not even pertaining to indoc theory. But if they just gave up on every idea that they couldn't implement in the way they intended, then the game might just be a pile of crap. Obviously devs have to find workarounds. That's partly the reason why there are so many working with code and so many brainstorming/writing and figuring out the best way to implement those ideas.

[Jadebaby]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...


We've already come to the conlusion that the Final Hours app can be dismissed due to Casey Hudsons own statement. Just because they scrapped the mechanic doesn't mean they scrapped the idea. He also said don't take what you find in the app as canon. We're not... we're merely saying that what the app shows doesn't really prove/disprove anything.

If they scrapped the mechanic, why wouldn't it be logical to assume they scrapped the idea? Without the mechanic, they have no means of implementing the idea, and as such, it would still be poor writing if it takes a forum and Twitter to come to a conclusion that should have been evident in the game.

If they have an idea, but no means of actually implementing it, then why stick with the idea?

They could've just decided that it would be easier to move it on to the player to figure out on their own. Who knows for sure really. I highly doubt bioware would've just given up on an idea like that though..especially being known for plot twists. All I can say is that the devs have told us that the final hours app shouldn't be taken as canon. And I'll hold onto that for now.

My take on it is because of time, they didn't have time to flesh out the mechanics of it. And instead left it up to the player to figure out. Whatever the case, it's evidence they were playing around with the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 02 avril 2012 - 04:30 .

[savagejuicebox]

[quote]savagejuicebox wrote...

[quote]GBGriffin wrote...

[quote]n00bsauce2010 wrote...


We've already come to the conlusion that the Final Hours app can be dismissed due to Casey Hudsons own statement. Just because they scrapped the mechanic doesn't mean they scrapped the idea. He also said don't take what you find in the app as canon. We're not... we're merely saying that what the app shows doesn't really prove/disprove anything.

[/quote]

If they scrapped the mechanic, why wouldn't it be logical to assume they scrapped the idea? Without the mechanic, they have no means of implementing the idea, and as such, it would still be poor writing if it takes a forum and Twitter to come to a conclusion that should have been evident in the game.

If they have an idea, but no means of actually implementing it, then why stick with the idea?

[/quote]

Because its a good idea?? Do you not agree? It fits, the major enemies that shepard has faced had all been indoctrinated. Victory over indoctrination would mean vicory over the greatest enemy of the entire series, save for the reapers themselves.

*edit: grammer

Modifié par savagejuicebox, 02 avril 2012 - 04:30 .

[CLB17]

DuskRose wrote...

CLB17 wrote...

DuskRose wrote...

And it explains somethings like why you can see the kid at the beginning of the game, and those dreams, but Vendetta doesn't identify you as indoctrinated on Thessia.

I think that the prothean VIs can only detect indoctrination when the subject has reaper implants in them. That would explain why Kai Leng was noticed by the VI but not shepard if he is indoctrinated. On a side note, saren already had sovereign's impants in him when he went to Ilos, which would be how Vigil noticed him.

Agreed, only when the Reapers could assume direct mechanical control of a person, or when the person is actually giving off indoc waves.

The  whole induced mental disorder thought also explains why there is a destroy option after all, since it would literally be Shepard's fight against the part of her that is thinking with the Reapers, if that phrasing makes any sense.

Indoctrination seems to be similar to scizophrania or even split personality disorder. Benezia talks about how she was trapped in her own mind as she watched her indoctrinated self do saren's bidding.

[GBGriffin]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...


I'm sorry but I refuse to beleive that a dev team would simply give up on a good idea. not even pertaining to indoc theory. But if they just gave up on every idea that they couldn't implement in the way they intended, then the game might just be a pile of crap. Obviously devs have to find workarounds. That's partly the reason why there are so many working with code and so many brainstorming/writing and figuring out the best way to implement those ideas.

It's a matter of beliefs, then. I'm not arguing that it's a poor idea; what I'm arguing is that, for whatever reasons (time, money, etc), they didn't have the resources to pull it off. They may have set out with the idea in mind, but it fell through. That can happen. Look at Peter Molyneux. He had ideas and no way to really execute half of them

You believe that a dev team running out of resources when faced with a good idea is unlikely; I believe it isn't. I don't expect either of us will sway the other, though, so I'm fine leaving it at that.