57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Dendio1]

Begging the question: It is dependant on the evidence relying on the conclusion.
IT does not fit this and so your arguement falls apart.

Here is an example of begging the question:
Alice says she is honest.
If an honest person says something, it must be true.
Therefore Alice is an honest person, because an honest person says so.

Indoctrination theory evidence is not dependent on whether or not you believe IT to be correct.
It is not a form of begging the question.

Lets use the rachni example you gave
"No. We... I do not know what happened in the war. We only heard discordance. Songs the colour of oily shadows."
Discordance is another word for conflict. The oily shadows represent struggle.
These are facts that exist regardless of whether or not you believe in IT.


We can take shepards dreams and compare the oily shadows he experiences to what the rachni went through. Regardless of whether or not you believe in IT, shepard is under discordance chasing that kid through his dream
with voices everywhere and reapers blearing. He is also experiencing oily shadows.

Lets go further:
"A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour yellow note. "

This clearly suggests the reapers forced the rachni in to submission one by one.

Whether you believe in IT or not this is canon dialogue in game. Now were in the game would we find the color yellow followed by submission? Perhaps the meme *ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL*. Kenson during the arrival dlc, glows yellow at the apex of her betrayal. She is controlled by a reaper and has yellow light pouring from her eyes. This is canon regardless of IT theory

Now how about rachni interpreting reality differently than humans?

The geth interface merges with shepard and uses his mind to create a platform he can interpret. This is canon regardless of your belief in IT.Its also proof that it is possible for a mind state to interpret forms it would not be able to understand during normal circumstances. If the geth can share their vision with shepard it is not unreasonable to see a scenario where the reapers mind visions would look similar to races with different methods of scensory output.

Now from all of this we can put two and two together. We can speculate that shepard under reaper influence had conflict in his mind, manfesting itself as many things, including oily shadows. We can speculate that perhaps if shepard fully gave in the oily shadows would become sour yellow. We can also speculate that the rachni queen interpreted reaper control in an identifiable way to shepard, since both cases were in the mind. The evidence behind this speculation is canon and not dependant on whether or not you believe in IT.

IT theory is not a law, it is actually closer to a hypothesis. it is also not a form of begging the question.
The supporting evidence is present regardless of your belief in IT.

Modifié par Dendio1, 02 avril 2012 - 03:27 .

[LiarasShield]

Well everyone seems more focused on senseless banter instead of focusing on the issue at hand here

[Derp88]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Look at what bioware announced!

http://www.trueachie...t-3s-ending.htm

Should've posted this yesterday....

lol

[LiarasShield]

I mean it may be no wonder why bioware may not take us seriously when we act like foolish kids on the school play ground

[ky0dar]

On topic of direct control, I thought it was pretty clear that it was Saren!Sovereign and not the other way round. Saren died long before that and Nazara was just getting all up ins. Case in point the colours, Harbinger's possession is yellow. "Saren" is red. What colour are their holographic representations?
The thing is, as i understand it, if you kill a being that a Reaper is possessing that damages them - killing Sovereign's avatar allowed the Fifth Fleet an easier shot. Bingie is careful not to get caught out - hence "releasing control"

[N7xELITE]

http://east.paxsite....and-mass-effect                   --------------Not long left.

Modifié par N7xELITE, 02 avril 2012 - 03:33 .

[Arashi08]

This may have been mentioned already, but has anyone noticed that when you assault TIM's base there is a recording there that shows him about to get Reaper implants, Yet when he speaks to you his face looks normal, as opposed to how he appears on the Citadel? Since you find that recording during the attack, he clearly got the implants before you arrived, but there are no signs of them the next time you see him on Chronos station. I suppose since it is a hologram it could be open to interpretation as to why you don't see the implants at the time, but I thought it was an interesting bit of info nonetheless.

[Kroen135]

Dendio1 wrote...

Begging the question: It is dependant on the evidence relying on the conclusion.
IT does not fit this and so your arguement falls apart.

Here is an example of begging the question:
Alice says she is honest.
If an honest person says something, it must be true.
Therefore Alice is an honest person, because an honest person says so.

Indoctrination theory evidence is not dependent on whether or not you believe IT to be correct.
It is not a form of begging the question.

Lets use the rachni example you gave
"No. We... I do not know what happened in the war. We only heard discordance. Songs the colour of oily shadows."
Discordance is another word for conflict. The oily shadows represent struggle.
These are facts that exist regardless of whether or not you believe in IT.


We can take shepards dreams and compare the oily shadows he experiences to what the rachni went through. Regardless of whether or not you believe in IT, shepard is under discordance chasing that kid through his dream
with voices everywhere and reapers blearing. He is also experiencing oily shadows.

Lets go further:
"A tone from space hushed one voice after another. It forced the singers to resonate with its own sour yellow note. "

This clearly suggests the reapers forced the rachni in to submission one by one.

Whether you believe in IT or not this is canon dialogue in game. Now were in the game would we find the color yellow followed by submission? Perhaps the meme *ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL*. Kenson during the arrival dlc, glows yellow at the apex of her betrayal. She is controlled by a reaper and has yellow light pouring from her eyes. This is canon regardless of IT theory

Now how about rachni interpreting reality differently than humans?

The geth interface merges with shepard and uses his mind to create a platform he can interpret. This is canon regardless of your belief in IT.Its also proof that it is possible for a mind state to interpret forms it would not be able to understand during normal circumstances. If the geth can share their vision with shepard it is not unreasonable to see a scenario where the reapers mind visions would look similar to races with different methods of scensory output.

Now from all of this we can put two and two together. We can speculate that shepard under reaper influence had conflict in his mind, manfesting itself as many things, including oily shadows. We can speculate that perhaps if shepard fully gave in the oily shadows would become sour yellow. We can also speculate that the rachni queen interpreted reaper control in an identifiable way to shepard, since both cases were in the mind. The evidence behind this speculation is canon and not dependant on whether or not you believe in IT.

IT theory is not a law, it is actually closer to a hypothesis. it is also not a form of begging the question.
The supporting evidence is present regardless of your belief in IT.

Well said sir. Very good way of pointing out that we are using canon details to support IT, or as you say our Indoctrination hypothesis. Whether or not they are meant to be in support of a similar plot device isn't relevant as much as it fits and supports our hyphothesis. Those who wish to defeat this must also bring a form of "canon" evidence to support their claim to it's invalidity. Once again very well spoken.

[captainbob8383]

Just a little clarification, it seems some people still dont trust what Rifneno wrote in one of his previous posts.

I've checked it myself, for what it's worth, and can confirm that it's true. The device used by Shepard in the choice 'Control' is composed by objects named "end_choice_BadA_01".
Yes it's just a name, but being a developer myself I can tell we usually name an object according to its use. So in my opinion it's a quiet important hint.

Modifié par captainbob8383, 02 avril 2012 - 03:44 .

[Cobra's_back]

bump

[LiarasShield]

when is pax supposed to be again?

[gekko513]

I don't doubt that indoctrination exists in the ME universe, but if the ending is Shepard finally succumbing to that indoctrination, then it appears that the ending doesn't give closure to anything at all.

As it stands now, I don't buy the indoctrination theory as in Shepard finally being under control of the reapers. What I do buy is that the reapers have been increasingly interacting and communicating with Shepard's subconsciousness throughout the series, ever since he touched the first Prothean artifact.

I think the end sequence together with the several earlier conflicts gave us the explanation for the thought processes and reasoning behind the reapers action. It's not certain that their beliefs are correct. Take for instance their prediction that the destruction ending will only delay the conflict, and that it inevitably will reoccur when organics create AI again. That's what the reapers believe is inevitable, but they're not gods, so Shepard is free to believe that it doesn't have to be that way, and that organics and synthetics could've lived together in peace without a full synthesis.

The more I think about the current ending, the better it gets. At first I missed not getting to know more about the fate of the people I've met and the planets I've been to. I still hope to get an epilogue with more closure for those sub plots, but as a conclusion to the greater themes of the game such as: conflict and peace, sacrifice, the reapers and the synthetics vs. organics, individualism vs consensus, all those things, I think the current ending is a great one.

Modifié par gekko513, 02 avril 2012 - 03:46 .

[LiarasShield]

Well some of us at least want a chance at a better or different ending so I hope that is ok/

[N7xELITE]

LiarasShield wrote...

when is pax supposed to be again?

 BOSTON, MA  APRIL 6-8, 2012

Modifié par N7xELITE, 02 avril 2012 - 03:47 .

[N7xELITE]

LiarasShield wrote...

when is pax supposed to be again?

Also here is a link =   http://east.paxsite.com/schedule

[Kroen135]

Arashi08 wrote...

This may have been mentioned already, but has anyone noticed that when you assault TIM's base there is a recording there that shows him about to get Reaper implants, Yet when he speaks to you his face looks normal, as opposed to how he appears on the Citadel? Since you find that recording during the attack, he clearly got the implants before you arrived, but there are no signs of them the next time you see him on Chronos station. I suppose since it is a hologram it could be open to interpretation as to why you don't see the implants at the time, but I thought it was an interesting bit of info nonetheless.

Honestly, if you pay attention, you only see the actual Illusive mans face (mainly the right side) twice in the game. Once when talking to him at the Prothean Archives on Mars, and once on the "citadel" in the end. The only other time you see him, aside from a hologram (which can easily be doctored to those who view the transmission to make him look like normal) is after the attack on the Citadel after Tuchanka. Take note to when Kai Leng is talking to him and realize that it never pans to his right side at all. It stays curiously to his left constantly (or the behind him). Also if you not, while he had some reaper tech on his left side, it was very much on TIM's right side of his face and neck. As pointed out just before, after Mars they don't physically show that side of his face again until the "Citadel"

[N7xELITE]

4:30 PM

BioWare and Mass Effect
Voted the Most Anticipated Game of 2012 at the Spike TV Video Game Awards, Mass Effect 3 is finally here! Join developers for an exciting look at the evolution of the series. Bring your burning questions about Mass Effect 3! Fans wearing Mass Effect costumes will be given special recognition during the panel. Spoiler Alert, Garrus is calibrating and cannot attend.

PANELISTS:
Chris Priestly, Mike Gamble, Corey Gaspur, Patrick Weekes, John Dombrow, Reid Buckmaster

[Ms_Alison_Gunn]

Arashi08 wrote...

This may have been mentioned already, but has anyone noticed that when you assault TIM's base there is a recording there that shows him about to get Reaper implants, Yet when he speaks to you his face looks normal, as opposed to how he appears on the Citadel? Since you find that recording during the attack, he clearly got the implants before you arrived, but there are no signs of them the next time you see him on Chronos station. I suppose since it is a hologram it could be open to interpretation as to why you don't see the implants at the time, but I thought it was an interesting bit of info nonetheless.

I just replayed the Cerberus base last night and I noticed the same thing. Basically, I came to the same conclusion that it was really weird we see TIM as a normal person at the base but clearly different at the Citadel. He doesn't even look like he's had sugery when you see him at Cerberus.

[gekko513]

LiarasShield wrote...

Well some of us at least want a chance at a better or different ending so I hope that is ok/

Of course it's ok to want that. I just hope for my own sake that they don't change the things about the current ending that makes me think it's a great ending for the bigger themes.

[LiarasShield]

DuskRose wrote...

LiarasShield wrote...

when is pax supposed to be again?

The 6th


Gah, I hate that you can't delete bad posts

 Just wondering you don't have to tear my head off I only read a view posts every now and then so please I like keeping my head lol O_o

[Kroen135]

Actually scratch what I said about TIM and his face, while his right side clearly has more, his left side still has enough to notice to make it that he isn't implanted by the time Kai Leng reports to him about the Citadel attack.

http://nothing-is-ir.../03/11l1wtx.jpg

[LiarasShield]

By the way as well is their a way to register me2 if you bought from the psn store or the xbox store

[Dendio1]

aside from a hologram (which can easily be doctored to those who view the transmission to make him look like normal)

Citation?
Has anyone in the history of mass effect ever doctored their hologram appearance to be inconsistent with their actual appearance?