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[Vortex7880]

Just found this little thread (http://social.biowar...5/index/9787569) with some info about 'cut' dialogue from Joker during the final mission, what's more interesting however is the post detailing events from the old script; epilogue perhaps?

[lavosslayer]

Auresta wrote...

Ellestor wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

Ellestor wrote...

I'm on board with the idea of Shepard's indoctrination while he lays unconscious at Harbinger's feet—seems obvious to me that Harbinger couldn't resist the opportunity—but I don't buy that the renegade/paragon options are flipped in the way some people are suggesting. That's obviously not the case in the confrontation with TIM, and besides, doesn't the suggestion fall apart in the case of a normally renegade Shepard?

I don't think it falls apart at all...consider the fact that this particular situation takes raw instinct to break out of...intellect is actually your enemy here since its being so distorted and twisted by the Reapers attempts at indoctrination. Making a renegade choice is the only way to fight back against these attempts and complete your mission...

Right, which I'm saying doesn't make sense if Shepard is a renegade. There are people suggesting that the choices are presented the way they are to make the player believe Destroy is a bad choice, that it's presented as renegade when it isn't, and I'm saying that doesn't fit if Shepard has been played as a renegade up to that point. In order to fit the theory, the presentation would have to be flipped.

As for their idea (but not yours, I see) that Destroy is presented as renegade when it shouldn't be: bull****. Destroying the goddamn galaxy in order to destroy the Reapers is absolutely a renegade action. The Renegade has always been the one that's about sacrificing whatever you have to in order to achieve your goal, as long as the sacrifice isn't yours.

And it's because that sacrifice is what the Reapers are intended to destroy, and because that's the only choice through which Harbinger apparently allows Shepard to wake, that I contend it is the one he wants Shepard to make. Much as Saren was indoctrinated to believe organics will survive by serving the Reapers and TIM was indoctrinated to believe he could save humanity by controlling them, I've been saying that Shepard's indoctrination would naturally settle on convincing him that he can destroy the Reapers by destroying what they want destroyed.

How does destroy destroy the galaxy? The Mass Relays are destroyed in all options and Earth doesn't get blown up in either endings if you have high enough EMS.

yeah I don't agree with the idea that Harbinger wants you to choose the Destroy option...Harbinger isn't "letting" you do anything, its all Shepard either choosing to fight or give in to the indoctrination, period...regardless of color, paragon, renegade...none of which truly matters in the end, as it is up to you the player to determine what choice achieves Shepards goal...Harbinger definitely makes control and synthesis sound more enticing but ultimately its the big FU of blowing the crap out of the crucible that ultimately allows you to stop/defeat Harbinger from indoctrinating you and wake up!

[Sharrack]

Already posted this but think it drowned in a post storm some pages away:
Illusions usually let the mind do the work for them and let it decieve itself. This would explain why the confrontation with TIM plays out very similar as the one with Saren as Shepard thinks both had initially good intentions but got indoctrinated (if the dream starts before entering the citadel).
Andersons death then perhaps is a symbol for S. Believing for them to be to late.

Shepards own mind doing the main work also gives us an explanation on why the War Assets influence the endings. I think it would go like this:
The more readiness you have the higher Shepards determination and willpower are and changes the outcome Shepards deems possible.
On the different kinds of endings i think it's true that destruction frees him and control enslaves him but sythesis needs a much to high amount of war assets to be a bad outcome for him. It seems more like a back door his mind wants to show him, another way he could go to defeat the reapers.
(actually changed my mind on this part. I think new options are added the moment Shepards willpower (war assets) reaches a level where the cearlier choices won't work as intended anymore. so on low assets even with choosing destruction he would loose the mindbattle but reaching higher levels changes this. The same with control and perhaps even with synthesis.)

reason why he isn't shown alive afterwards: it would give away that it's not real too easily.
And he dies in all of the possibilities because he himself doubts that he will survive this.

Read about this theory of yours yesterday and afterwards i remembered some things:
- In an interview i stumbled upon it was hinted at by bioware staff that the playtime is about 50% more then ME 2 now that would get me to about 60h but ME3 capped out at around 30h.
- There was a lot of talk about wrong leads and us hunting for differen solutions when there is only one
So perhaps we not only didn't see the real ending but we still get half of the game at a later time and this waiting is a part of the experience. Except while on PC that wouldn't be much of a problem with Origin being needed to actually play the game (perhaps also a reason it's mandatory),
how would they do it on the 360? On the PS3 it could already be on disc, the space is there and there either is a timestamp which unlocks the content or you need a patch to do so...

Edit: Oh and don't know it's already said but after you return from entering the Geth server EDI says something along the lines of "how do you know you are in reality now?". If this theory is true it would make this statement one hell of a foreshadowing.

Modifié par Sharrack, 12 mars 2012 - 12:09 .

[Auresta]

Ellestor wrote...

Auresta wrote...

How does destroy destroy the galaxy? The Mass Relays are destroyed in all options and Earth doesn't get blown up in either endings if you have high enough EMS.

I think destroying all synthetic life and most technology qualifies as achieving the Reapers' ends, resetting the cycle for the spacefaring races, which are supposedly the only ones the Reapers care to eliminate to prevent a singularity. Them and the synthetics they create.

My only fault with this is that I never trusted the star-brat to being with. Him telling me that destroy will kill off Geth, EDI, and synthetics didn't ring true for me. It might be, but my gut going into the final parts of the game told me not to trust him.

Though I see your point - we seem to be no better in destroy because we almost admit that synthetics and organics cannot live together in peace.. but the other choices don't seem right either in my opinion. I'm inclined to think that destroying the reapers isn't just destroying synthetics, but it's destroying this arbitrary destructive force (the Reapers) that SHOULDN'T exist.

[CreepingGeth]

Myrmedus wrote...

I personally think this is just people clutching at straws because they can't accept the ending as is.

Shepard wakes up! There is no ending.

[k8ee]

@QwertyMusicMan
That's the thing... they have good writers and generally make great games... they couldn't have made these endings and gone "yup, that's perfect. Just how we wanted it."

[lavosslayer]

k8ee wrote...

@QwertyMusicMan
That's the thing... they have good writers and generally make great games... they couldn't have made these endings and gone "yup, that's perfect. Just how we wanted it."

Actually I"m sure they did say that, but with the understanding that what we have now isn't the final masterstroke so to speak...

[noobcannon]

shepard needs that little spin top thing dicaprio had in inception to tell if he was dreaming or not.

[carilynn46]

I have a question, but before i ask i have to say that I support this SO MUCH it isn't even funny lol i mean every thing just seemed out of place and not right. but my question is when shep wakes up after the beam attack I noticed that some people have seen their crew laying around them dead, but I didn't seen any of my team mates dead around me, what causes this?

[Ellestor]

lavosslayer wrote...

yeah I don't agree with the idea that Harbinger wants you to choose the Destroy option...Harbinger isn't "letting" you do anything, its all Shepard either choosing to fight or give in to the indoctrination, period...regardless of color, paragon, renegade...none of which truly matters in the end, as it is up to you the player to determine what choice achieves Shepards goal...Harbinger definitely makes control and synthesis sound more enticing but ultimately its the big FU of blowing the crap out of the crucible that ultimately allows you to stop/defeat Harbinger from indoctrinating you and wake up!

But the goal of indoctrination isn't to put you in a coma, and of course the Reapers would want the Crucible destroyed.

[k8ee]

Sharrack wrote...

*snip*

Edit: Oh and don't know it's already said but after you return from entering the Geth server EDI says something along the lines of "how do you know you are in reality now?". If this theory is true it would make this statement one hell of a foreshadowing.

HOLY CRAP HOW DID WE MISS THAT?!?!?!

Just when I thought we had beaten this thing to death with its own shoe

[Ona Demonie]

Found another plot hole: In Anderson's cut dialogue, he says he never had any kids. Yet, if you look into his file on the Shadow Broker base, his ex-wife emailed him about his son, Jason. WHAT IS GOING ON?!

[k8ee]

lavosslayer wrote...

k8ee wrote...

@QwertyMusicMan
That's the thing... they have good writers and generally make great games... they couldn't have made these endings and gone "yup, that's perfect. Just how we wanted it."

Actually I"m sure they did say that, but with the understanding that what we have now isn't the final masterstroke so to speak...

lol, yes, true enough

[Ona Demonie]

carilynn46 wrote...

I have a question, but before i ask i have to say that I support this SO MUCH it isn't even funny lol i mean every thing just seemed out of place and not right. but my question is when shep wakes up after the beam attack I noticed that some people have seen their crew laying around them dead, but I didn't seen any of my team mates dead around me, what causes this?

What was your EMS? Mine was 5028 when I launched the Earth mission and I didn't see any of my team mates dead. 

[Golferguy758]

Also, something to further point out that it's dream/hallucination/whatever. The Reaperchild thing says, when asked what he is. He replies with "I control the Reapers" No, that doesn't say what you are. That's what you do.

Hasn't it been alluded to, or flat out stated, that Harbinger is the boss reaper? Harbinger controls the reapers. The godchild thing also controls the reapers. Shepard knows this and his mind is filling in that blank for him.

[krystalevenstar]

Updating what I said last page:
I have a new idea from that audio clip. When Shepard wakes up from the dream ending, in the pile of rubble, she's still going to have to go to the conduit to activate the crucible, maybe Anderson goes with her then. Maybe this won't have to be a DLC, maybe it's just some tweaks to the current ending, minus the dream-y aspects, IF you passed the indoctrination check. Maybe after Shepard activates the crucible, there's the full conversation with Anderson, who unfortunately still passes away (but it kind of expected), and then the crucible goes off how it was supposed to. No god child, but the reapers are destroyed. The normandy comes into the citadel and gets shepard, shepard wakes up at some point after. Why else would they record both full conversations with femshep and maleshep + anderson and cut both. No, they'll use this, I can guarantee it.

That means the actual ending is probably on the disk and just super locked until bioware patches it open.

o_o

[lavosslayer]

Ellestor wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

yeah I don't agree with the idea that Harbinger wants you to choose the Destroy option...Harbinger isn't "letting" you do anything, its all Shepard either choosing to fight or give in to the indoctrination, period...regardless of color, paragon, renegade...none of which truly matters in the end, as it is up to you the player to determine what choice achieves Shepards goal...Harbinger definitely makes control and synthesis sound more enticing but ultimately its the big FU of blowing the crap out of the crucible that ultimately allows you to stop/defeat Harbinger from indoctrinating you and wake up!

But the goal of indoctrination isn't to put you in a coma, and of course the Reapers would want the Crucible destroyed.

I realize thats not the goal but it is what the situation is at this point...Shepard is unconscious on the ground in London being manipulated in his mind by Harbinger...if he chooses control or synthesis he becomes a pawn of Harbinger (a la Saren or TIM). If he chooses destroy he fights off indoctrination and has a chance to defeat the reapers for real...(provided his readiness score is high enough)

Modifié par lavosslayer, 12 mars 2012 - 12:17 .

[Ecmoose]

Ellestor wrote...

Auresta wrote...

How does destroy destroy the galaxy? The Mass Relays are destroyed in all options and Earth doesn't get blown up in either endings if you have high enough EMS.

I think destroying all synthetic life and most technology qualifies as achieving the Reapers' ends, resetting the cycle for the spacefaring races, which are supposedly the only ones the Reapers care to eliminate to prevent a singularity. Them and the synthetics they create.

I don't understand this common misconception that you destroy most technology. You destroy 2 things.

1) Synthetic Life
2) Mass Relays

FTL Travel, Mass Effect Fields, Eezo Cores, Enviro suits, medical machines, comm buoys etc, that all still functions. You never destroy the galaxy. Not to mention in destory, every world under attack now has tons of reaper tech and salvage frm mass relays to learn even more about how they work.

Assuming this is all not a hallucination of course.

[Ellestor]

k8ee wrote...

Sharrack wrote...

*snip*

Edit: Oh and don't know it's already said but after you return from entering the Geth server EDI says something along the lines of "how do you know you are in reality now?". If this theory is true it would make this statement one hell of a foreshadowing.

HOLY CRAP HOW DID WE MISS THAT?!?!?!

Just when I thought we had beaten this thing to death with its own shoe

I don't remember EDI saying anything to that effect, but Joker did, and it was a fourth-wall-breaking joke about you playing a video game.

Modifié par Ellestor, 12 mars 2012 - 12:18 .

[Ellestor]

Ecmoose wrote...

I don't understand this common misconception that you destroy most technology.

The Catalyst outright says that it does.

[tr3y300]

I understand the end,but it feel's out of place. This ending feels like a dream,when you wake up. The leak data had to have alot to do with these three endings.They had to rewrite for sure!,But any remember the A.I,T.I.M was talking about? could that be what he planned if he failed. Or did i just miss something.

[Auresta]

Ellestor wrote...

k8ee wrote...

Sharrack wrote...

*snip*

Edit: Oh and don't know it's already said but after you return from entering the Geth server EDI says something along the lines of "how do you know you are in reality now?". If this theory is true it would make this statement one hell of a foreshadowing.

HOLY CRAP HOW DID WE MISS THAT?!?!?!

Just when I thought we had beaten this thing to death with its own shoe

I don't remember EDI saying anything to that effect, but Joker did, and it was a fourth-wall-breaking joke about you playing a video game.

This is a nice jab from Joker but I really don't think it applies to our theories.

[k8ee]

krystalevenstar wrote...

Updating what I said last page:
I have a new idea from that audio clip. When Shepard wakes up from the dream ending, in the pile of rubble, she's still going to have to go to the conduit to activate the crucible, maybe Anderson goes with her then. Maybe this won't have to be a DLC, maybe it's just some tweaks to the current ending, minus the dream-y aspects, IF you passed the indoctrination check. Maybe after Shepard activates the crucible, there's the full conversation with Anderson, who unfortunately still passes away (but it kind of expected), and then the crucible goes off how it was supposed to. No god child, but the reapers are destroyed. The normandy comes into the citadel and gets shepard, shepard wakes up at some point after. Why else would they record both full conversations with femshep and maleshep + anderson and cut both. No, they'll use this, I can guarantee it.

That means the actual ending is probably on the disk and just super locked until bioware patches it open.

o_o

Maybe, but it could also be because on the SB base is supposedly says Anderson has an exwife and kid... WHICH IS TRAGIC BECAUSE THAT CUT SCENE IS EXCELLENT

[Sharrack]

Auresta wrote...

Ellestor wrote...

k8ee wrote...

Sharrack wrote...

*snip*

Edit: Oh and don't know it's already said but after you return from entering the Geth server EDI
says something along the lines of "how do you know you are in reality
now?". If this theory is true it would make this statement one hell of a
foreshadowing.

HOLY CRAP HOW DID WE MISS THAT?!?!?!

Just
when I thought we had beaten this thing to death with its own
shoe

I don't remember EDI saying anything to that effect, but
Joker did, and it was a fourth-wall-breaking joke about you playing a
video game.

This is a nice jab from Joker but I really don't think it applies to our theories.

Thought it was EDI with me, and i did get the breaking of the 4th wall but that doesn't change that it would be foreshadowing.
Edit: perhaps foreshadowing is the wrong word. What i mean is that this statement would become a whole new meaning if the hallucination theory is true as it might have been put there with the intention to tell you, that you should doubt what you percieve as real.

Modifié par Sharrack, 12 mars 2012 - 12:23 .

[eclipso621]

 So just restarted my second playthough....Did anyone else notice when you first run into the husks, the little kid runs into the room you enter be for the door closes.