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[Tirian Thorn]

Sorry if this was brought up in the 1000+ pages. 

I'm going through the Arrival DLC again and when you come face to face with "Object Rho" -the Reaper Artifact- you are assaulted by it.  The same black wavy lines as in the ending when you meet TIM can be seen.  Not to the same degree, but VERY similar. 

The object also says several times during the fight that it is interested in "you". 

Indoctrination is such a big part of this series that I feel like IDT is true. 

Modifié par Tirian Thorn, 02 avril 2012 - 11:40 .

[Eshaye]

Tirian Thorn wrote...


Indoctrination is such a big part of this series that I feel like IDT is true. 

Yes. It's far too prominent of a theme to be casually pushed aside. It's been hammered into us since ME1 that the Reaper's best and most fearsome weapon is indoctrination. 

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


I know about and wholeheartedly agree with the concept of to each his/her own in terms of characters.  I love them all, to be honest.  Just figured I should throw Ash out there.  And as for her being best, honestly, they are ALL best simply because we've learned to care about them all.

Ash is like a less feminine Tex. I dont much care for her.

Yeah, but Tex doesn't quote poetry. 

But between someone who quotes poetry, and Agent Tex, I'd totally want Tex on my team.

It would be awesome if we had Tex, wouldn't it?  I'd rather Shepard could do those things, though...  (sigh) if only.  I should point out, though, that Tex is wearing MJOLNIR armor.  If Ash was wearing it, things would be different.

[Dwailing]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


I know about and wholeheartedly agree with the concept of to each his/her own in terms of characters.  I love them all, to be honest.  Just figured I should throw Ash out there.  And as for her being best, honestly, they are ALL best simply because we've learned to care about them all.

Ash is like a less feminine Tex. I dont much care for her.

Yeah, but Tex doesn't quote poetry. 

No, she goes to red base.
Kills everybody.
Gets the flag back.

I should point out that, while we love them, the Red team guys are quite possibly the worst soldiers in history, so I wouldn't put too much store in how they perform.

[Either.Ardrey]

Tzayqa wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

Tzayqa wrote...

 Here's my primary problem with the whole theory presented in this thread (other than that whole 'simplest explanation' thing):
If this theory is correct, and what we saw wasn't the actual ending... Since it is what we have, that means they were going to try to sell us the actual ending as DLC. The game wouldn't actually have had an ending until we paid for it.

Note the use of past tense, in light of announcements from Bioware. I can't even imagine the crapstorm they would have gotten for the above, were the theory in this thread true.

At least a dozen (if not much more) oppenents of this thread have stated the exact same thing. All it does is prove that they didn't reach much about the theory and have little knowledge as to its actual arguments.

This theory posits that the distribution method could either be A) a patch/update, a patch/update on PC/unlock on Xbox/PS3 disc (least likely and mostly debunked), or C) a free DLC in the vein of the free DLC content provided through the Cerberus Network for ME2, meaning that it's free for people who bought the game new, providing a massive twist and anti-piracy measure simultaneously (this is thought as the most likely method).

In other words, they don't have to SELL it to us if they make it free content through Alliance Network (or whatever it's called for ME3) or a patch/update. Which, if it was planned beforehand, would have been accounted for in the budget for the full game.

What does stating "prove they didn't reach much about the theory and have little knowledge as to its actual arguments" have to do with anything?

Basically all that says is you have nothing to back up the fact that having the actual ending to the game as DLC, free or not, would be a horrendous practice. DLC and patches are meant to enhance the core content, not provide core content that is missing entirely.

In light of that, I can only guess you said what you did in order to insult others of differing opinions based off of your own flawed assumptions about them. How enlightened.

I was attempting to answer in a non-hostile manner and supply the needed information in a succint and explicit manner, but apparently that went over your head. If the ending was/is something akin to IDT, then having it in the main game would make it lose most, if not all, of its emotional/psychological impact. When you add that to the fact that the endings were leaked twice, it gives them all the more reason to withhold it until enough people have completed the game, which also reflects statements from Bioware, which say that they won't discuss the endings until more people complete the game. If their plan was/is indeed akin to IDT, this is the only real way they could do it to it's maximum effect.

I never meant to cause any offense to anyone, but you are clearly easily offended, so I apologize for being brusque and not candy coating my rebuttal with smilies. Most information is supplied in the OP, which is the starting point for anyone just getting into understanding what this theory is about. So many people come into this thread without even doing that, it becomes difficult to discern between those who don't know and those who don't care. Also written communication is very inefficient, because tone can often be misinterpreted. Anyone would likely interpret this response as aggressive or attacking when I am merely trying to explain a position as clearly and concisely as possible, in an effort to not have to post the same thing over and over again. 



Byne, if the DLC would likely be free argument isn't in the OP yet, could you please add it? It could save us a lot of trouble in the long run. (EDIT: I didn't see it in my recent glance through of the OP while I was typing this post)

Modifié par Either.Ardrey, 02 avril 2012 - 11:58 .

[zakaryzb]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

I was attempting to answer in a non-hostile manner and supply the needed information in a succint and explicit manner, but apparently that went over your head. If the ending was/is something akin to IDT, then having it in the main game would make it lose most, if not all, of its emotional/psychological impact. When you add that to the fact that the endings were leaked twice, it gives them all the more reason to withhold it until enough people have completed the game, which also reflects statements from Bioware, which say that they won't discuss the endings until more people complete the game. If their plan was/is indeed akin to IDT, this is the only real way they could do it to it's maximum effect.

Thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth.  I really think this sort of twist will be much more impactful than if it was in the game from the beginning.  Plus, this got people talking and creating videos/thread such as this one.  Bioware just did not expect the ****storm of feedback that they ended up getting from some fans.

[Rifneno]

DuskRose wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Garrus, Tali, and Liara are the best. Because they were the ones that actually supported Shepard the whole time. Unlike those two pieces of crap from the Alliance. I'm only sorry that I couldn't leave them both on Virmire.

Yeah, whatever. 'Cause OF COURSE it's the most important/reasonable thing to go chasing someone who a) died is currently working alongside a terrorist organization that may or may not be abducting human colonists and c) abandon your assigned post in a military organization while doing so.

Sounds more reasonable than ignoring the Reaper slaves that literally just attacking you and blaming it all on the one who stopped them from turning you into toothpaste. It's moderately understandable for other characters in other places to take that attitude. But for either VS, after being on Horizon and witnessing what was really going on firsthand? HELL no.

Vahilor wrote...

I never was very fond of Liara, she is ok, but pretty boring for me and without the "Shadow Broker DLC" she doesn't help much either.. and tells you straight into the face that getting the SB is more importan than helping Shep.

The only one not hesitating in helping of the old crew is Garrus.. and I can understand Ash/Kaiden. How would you react if a friend/LI raise from the dead and now work now for terrorists ?

I think the only reason Liara didn't join in ME2 was because they wanted her to be mandatory in ME3 and didn't want us getting her killed in the suicide mission. Just my opinion though.
Garrus is the man. Tali I can understand because she was on a very important mission for her people. Speaking of which, it's great those two wound up together (if Shepard isn't with either of them).

DuskRose wrote...

That's a good point. How badly the Reapers want Shepard specifically

Harbinger is trying to get his Paramour achievement off Shepard. Maybe it worked too, because if the end is really the end, we totally got ****ed.

[Dwailing]

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


I know about and wholeheartedly agree with the concept of to each his/her own in terms of characters.  I love them all, to be honest.  Just figured I should throw Ash out there.  And as for her being best, honestly, they are ALL best simply because we've learned to care about them all.

Ash is like a less feminine Tex. I dont much care for her.

Yeah, but Tex doesn't quote poetry. 

But between someone who quotes poetry, and Agent Tex, I'd totally want Tex on my team.

It would be awesome if we had Tex, wouldn't it?  I'd rather Shepard could do those things, though...  (sigh) if only.  I should point out, though, that Tex is wearing MJOLNIR armor.  If Ash was wearing it, things would be different.

OK, before this gets out of hand, I'll end it.  In all honesty, Tex is cooler.  But.... can I romance Tex?

Edit: I should point out that in almost all Quantifiable ways Tex is cooler.  However, there is alot to be said for personal taste.

Modifié par Dwailing, 02 avril 2012 - 11:59 .

[Either.Ardrey]

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


I know about and wholeheartedly agree with the concept of to each his/her own in terms of characters.  I love them all, to be honest.  Just figured I should throw Ash out there.  And as for her being best, honestly, they are ALL best simply because we've learned to care about them all.

Ash is like a less feminine Tex. I dont much care for her.

Yeah, but Tex doesn't quote poetry. 

But between someone who quotes poetry, and Agent Tex, I'd totally want Tex on my team.

It would be awesome if we had Tex, wouldn't it?  I'd rather Shepard could do those things, though...  (sigh) if only.  I should point out, though, that Tex is wearing MJOLNIR armor.  If Ash was wearing it, things would be different.

OK, before this gets out of hand, I'll end it.  In all honesty, Tex is cooler.  But.... can I romance Tex?

Edit: I should point out that in almost all Quantifiable ways Tex is cooler.  However, there is alot to be said for personal taste.

I think Church might have issue with that:lol: (last pre edit comment)

[TheGreenAlloy]

CLB17 wrote...

I currently playing the overlord DLC in ME2 and i have to say it looks exactly like the planet the crew crashed on in the ME3 ending. It even has 2 moons like the planet they crash on. It now seems a bit odd that the Hammerhead VI would point out pleasing views of the planet. Its a military vehicle, not some civilian tour bus.

That would be Aite.

[Dwailing]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


I know about and wholeheartedly agree with the concept of to each his/her own in terms of characters.  I love them all, to be honest.  Just figured I should throw Ash out there.  And as for her being best, honestly, they are ALL best simply because we've learned to care about them all.

Ash is like a less feminine Tex. I dont much care for her.

Yeah, but Tex doesn't quote poetry. 

But between someone who quotes poetry, and Agent Tex, I'd totally want Tex on my team.

It would be awesome if we had Tex, wouldn't it?  I'd rather Shepard could do those things, though...  (sigh) if only.  I should point out, though, that Tex is wearing MJOLNIR armor.  If Ash was wearing it, things would be different.

OK, before this gets out of hand, I'll end it.  In all honesty, Tex is cooler.  But.... can I romance Tex?

Edit: I should point out that in almost all Quantifiable ways Tex is cooler.  However, there is alot to be said for personal taste.

I think Church might have issue with that:lol: (last pre edit comment)

He probably would, hence, Ashley. 

[N7L4D]

Are we talking about red vs blue now lol

[Either.Ardrey]

N7L4D wrote...

Are we talking about red vs blue now lol

Yup. It happens from time to time.:happy:

[Tirian Thorn]

DuskRose wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

Sorry if this was brought up in the 1000+ pages. 

I'm going through the Arrival DLC again and when you come face to face with "Object Rho" the Reaper Artifact you are assaulted by it.  The same black wavy lines as in the ending when you meet TIM can be seen.  Not to the same effect, but VERY similar. 

The object also says several times during the fight that it is interested in "you". 

Indoctrination is such a big part of this series that I feel like IDT is true. 

That's a good point.  How badly the Reapers want Shepard specifically

Harbinger makes a big attempt to get Shepard between Shepard's "death" and when she/he is turned over to Cerberus. 

The Reapers are definately interested in Shepard.  Why?  Perhaps he/she has a level of indoctrination resistance that hasn't been seen before or for some other qualities. 

Is Shepard immune?  I personally doubt that.  But if he/she hasn't been indoctrinated after all this time the reapers are REALLY taking their sweet time on this one.  (JUST SAYING) 

[Dwailing]

Either.Ardrey wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Are we talking about red vs blue now lol

Yup. It happens from time to time.:happy:

Yeah, that's what happens when you throw a bunch of RvB fans together.

Edit: A bunch being three of us. 

Modifié par Dwailing, 03 avril 2012 - 12:24 .

[Big Bad]

Man, the suspense is killing me. I really hope that on Friday we get an answer that is non-ambiguous regarding whether or not the story continues, but also does not give away too much information. I want to be surprised again.

[byne]

Dwailing wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Are we talking about red vs blue now lol

Yup. It happens from time to time.:happy:

Yeah, that's what happens when you throw a bunch of RvB fans together.

Speaking of RvB, on the last RT podcast Burnie (Church) said he and Gus (Simmons) liked the endings, which is disappointing.

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Either.Ardrey wrote...

N7L4D wrote...

Are we talking about red vs blue now lol

Yup. It happens from time to time.:happy:

Yeah, that's what happens when you throw a bunch of RvB fans together.

Speaking of RvB, on the last RT podcast Burnie (Church) said he and Gus (Simmons) liked the endings, which is disappointing.

 

[gekko513]

Chyliss wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Something big happened here. Up until this point TIM wants control and opposes the reapers. TIM starts to find ways to control husks..substantial breakthroughs occur. The reapers attack and destroy sanctuary. They are clearly on opposing sides. The next time we see Illusive man it as after assaulting whats left of the cerberus main base

The line is drawn here----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the other side of the line we have
Tim allows Kai Leng his opportunity to kill shepard. Up until this point Leng was told to avoid killing Shepard if possible.

Tim shares intel with the reapers- Even if TIM wanted to control the reapers this is a moral event horizon. He crossed the line by sharing intel with the enemy

TIM- has bonifide reaper tech by now. We dont know when it happened, but we can say he has it after sanctuary based on the video

TIM sacrifices cerberus!- TIM is cerberus. If anything would represent paragon in TIM's head it would be cerberus. TIM wants to save humanity..thats his M.O. even if its misguided. In me2 TIM says as much *cerberus is humanity*.
At this stage cerberus is fully dematerialized. Shepard sitting in the Illusive mans seat is as strong an image as one could come up with.

Slowly but surely everything that defines TIM is deconstructed, until it all comes to a head. TIM, the man who loves humanity the most, the man who sees both himself and cerberus as humanity, begins to fundamentally change his entire belief system. Suddenly Humanity must evolve to a higher plane. Suddenly control and taking abilities from the reapers was key. I wanted to ask him how far he was willing to go. He was merging with the reapers under the guise of control. At this point I was waiting for the words * more than human* to come along.

Alas my shepard started getting to him...the logic bombs started to work. The rest of the encounter is a chilling recount of ME1 and my conversations with saren.

Toss enough logic bombs at saren and he starts to question himself. Then suddenly he gets angry and accuses me of undoing all he worked for . Later on he commits suicide as the only way to end the voices.

Toss enough logic bombs at TIM and he starts to question himself. Then suddenly he gets angry and accuses me of undoing all he worked for . Later on he commits suicide as the only way to end the voices.

Great post here. let me throw out some more food for thought. I've read that Indoctrination began on TIM quite some time ago (in the books apparently). The long, slow Indoctrination process involves "planting suggestions". What happens if we view ALL of Cerberus' research initiatives as being initiated by the Reapers under the cover of Cerberus? As in they planted the idea to get TIM to do their dirty work in preparation for their return? What would be the implications? What research have we been told is important to Cerberus/TIM?

- Project Lazarus
- Project Overlord
- Element zero on humans
- EDI
- Sanctuary
- Mars/Crucible
- Others?

And how does Shepard fit into it? Personally I think the Reapers want Synthesis but don't know how to achieve it. TIM was manipulated into thinking his research initiatives would offer Control whilst unknowingly doing the necessary research to bring about Synthesis. I think TIM figured all along that he could manipulate/control the Reapers right up until the end. It was only then that he realized he was indoctrinated and couldn't control the reapers, even with all of his technology and implants. So he needed Shepard to do it in the end because Shep wasn't indoctrinated (although the Reapers were attempting it on him.).

Yeah, that was a brain dump. Just throwin it out there! Feel free to ignore.

No, no ignore, I agree. I've also been thinking about the reaper's motivations and they all make sense. They want synthesis, but they don't know how to achieve it, or they know one way to achieve it, but they haven't yet found the organics that will give the needed cooperation.

From the information we get, it appears that the start of the cycles of destruction with the reapers very similar to the Geth mishap. They acted in self defense. They wanted peace back than as well, but the organics were not willing to negotiate, and like all life they have an instinct for self preservation. Presumably, the reaper way of thinking is also more along the Geth consensus style or Rachni style of group thinking than individuality. Thus, the organic civilizations based on individuality appear as chaos and they see themselves as bringing order.

Following that train of logic, I think it's wrong that the Reapers were attempting to indoctrinate Shepard, as in taking control of him, but I think they were doing the slow process of establishing communications with his mind. If the Reapers are seeking synthesis, they are also looking for organics that can help them and eventually choose the synthesis option for the Crucible. I think it's likely, but I'm not sure, that the Reapers know all about the Crucible and also that the Citadel is the catalyst.

That the design of the Crucible allows for synthesis is thanks to the Reapers. Up along the cycles they've indoctrinated enough to tweak the design to make sure it's possible, but they need an organic that voluntarily adds himself to the Crucible for the synthesis to work, and not as a result of indoctrination. They're defending against having the Crucible used to control or destroy, but not synthesis. I think they've been following Shepard and communicated with him, but not to indoctrinate, more to investigate if he could be The One, so to speak. It does seem that they conclude that he's probably not, since he's hell bent on their destruction up until London. That's why they decide to keep defending and  proceeding with the cycle destruction.

I'm pondering what's the purpose of the harvesting, and I have two theories. Early on, I thought of it only as an alternative way to reach synthesis that the reapers were studying, but now I think it's more their way of preserving the legacy of the civilizations they eradicate. Just like we justify our actions, the Reapers justify the destruction of organic civilizations by preserving them and bringing them along in their own life form. Since they don't have the same sense of individuality, they don't see the killing of all the individuals as the atrocity that we do.

[Gilgamesh117]

Everyone knows the best squad mate in mass effect is Corporal Richard L. Jenkins.

[SirBob1613]

No he wasnt indoctrinated go back to thessia and the prothean data thing would have dectected if you where indoctrinated

[SC0TTYD00]

Expect disappointment on friday and you wont be disappointed....ummm yeah.

[byne]

SirBob1613 wrote...

No he wasnt indoctrinated go back to thessia and the prothean data thing would have dectected if you where indoctrinated

Kai Leng was also in the temple at that time, and the VI didnt notice him until he stopped hiding. You guys place far too much merit on the reliability of the prothean indoctrination detection.

The protheans themselves were betrayed from within by indoctrinated agents. If they could sense indoctrination with 100% accuracy, that would never have happened.