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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#29276
llbountyhunter

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byne wrote...

nranola wrote...

I just noticed, and I apologize if this has been brought up before, but with the Control ending sequence the Citadel arms close back down - you can see it here. I dunno about you guys but that seems awfully fishy to me.


Whats also strange about that is that defenders of the ending get around the plothole of why the godchild didnt just open the Citadel for Sovereign in ME1 by claiming he cant control the Citadel. In Control, Shep effectively becomes the new Catalyst. If the Catalyst cant control the Citadel, who exactly is closing the arms?


does anyone also notice that the relays arent as badly damaged either? you get the initiial blast, but only synthesis and destroy show them getting blasted apart, so they may even still be intact in "control"

#29277
nranola

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LOST SPARTANJLC wrote...

nranola wrote...

I just noticed, and I apologize if this has been brought up before, but with the Control ending sequence the Citadel arms close back down - you can see it here. I dunno about you guys but that seems awfully fishy to me.



How so ? 

Fishy in the sense that Shepard went to the Citadel hell bent on getting those ward arms open, and after "controlling" the Reapers they close back down.


byne wrote...

Whats also strange about that is that defenders of the ending get around the plothole of why the godchild didnt just open the Citadel for Sovereign in ME1 by claiming he cant control the Citadel. In Control, Shep effectively becomes the new Catalyst. If the Catalyst cant control the Citadel, who exactly is closing the arms?

Exactly.

#29278
Tirian Thorn

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JustAidan wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

does bioware really have to explain why the reapers are killing all organic life? I think it may be better if they just leave it at "we are beyond your comprehension", makes the game seem darker because they are alot more advanced and we still beat them.


Have to agree there, mecha-cthulhu is more interesting when you don't know or "beyond comprehension".



Totally agree with this. 

When Soverign & Harbinger talk about themselves - the Reapers - they spit on organics essentially.  Organics are contemptable to them.  Then the Star Child shows up and explains their purpose in two sentences.  Lame. 

And as it's pointed out several times the Star Child says "I am the Citadel."  Well, then why does ME1 ever happen?  If the Star Child can control the citadel why does Soverign need Saren to activate the citadel?  The Star Child could just do it themselves and be done with it.   (That's so frustrating to me.) 

#29279
MothrascoolerthenGodzilla

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

my own theory (in accordance to indocrination theory):

on the reapers origin, maybe they were organics at some point and then as time passed they used more and more tech implants on themselves until they ultimately decided to merge themselves with machines, downloading all their individual minds into the shells made from their own bodies and tech ending with what we now know as reapers.

my guess is that between harvests they mingle with each other in dark space in order to share experiences and perspectives as well as their own "species specific" technology in order to refine it, streamline it and improve it until no more perspectives or improvements can be made marking the need for a new harvesting and the continuation of their cycle of mental and physical improvement until they reach their ultimate goal which is to me transceding their own notions of perfection and achieve enlightnment in a true union between the organic and synthetic.

sound familiar? because that's what i think the synthesis option is if the IT is true, a way for the reapers to convey their own ideal of paradise/enlightnment in such a way that shepard could minimally understand, converting shepard to their own perspective. 

or maybe i'm just a crazy loon, either's better than what we got.:innocent: 


See? Better reason than an entire team of professional writers could come up with.


What makes you think they didn't?  Control is TIM's choice which leads to the Reapers controlling you, they win.  You voluntarily joining your DNA with the Reapers accomplishes their mission, they win.  The only out is Destroy.

The problem a lot of people seem to have is that they haven't spelled that out yet, and they're waiting to spell it out.  That doesn't mean they didn't think of it.  IT does not come out of thin air, it is all over the trilogy from beginning to end. 

I just finished a replay of the trilogy as I'm playing ME1, I realize, they turn you into Saren.  ME1 is Saren going through Shepard's story after the indoctrination.  I think it's brilliant.

A few things I noticed to support IT:


2. The starchild was never real, I believe from the very beginning, Is that a normandy model the kids holding?  Kind of like the kid is controlling all their fates as he swings it around circling.  Nobody sees the kid ever.  When he boards the shuttle, no one helps him up and while you could put that up to lazy animation, in the cut scene before the guards are grabbing the hands of all the civilians and pulling them on up to the escape shuttle.

3. When you're reading the logs in Pax which talk about your ressurection and you start to go into a haze while wondering if you're just an advanced AI, when your squadmate snaps you out of it, you hear the two reaper growls.  Same ones you hear when you're broken out of it when you see the kid in the vent in the beginning.

4. When you're walking up the walkway to the control panel on the Citadel and the 1M1 is written on the wall, you'll notice that the opposite side is a mirror image with the 1's backwards.  There's something off about the non-backward one too, but I can't place it.  Seeing letters backwards is a common dream mythos, no idea if it's true or not, I don't read in dreams.

Some obvious ones which I'm sure were mentioned somewhere in these 1000 pages:

5. Blood on shepards arm completely disappears come time to meet the starchild.

6. There are no other walkways to the circle on the citadel with the control panel yet somehow Anderson is there ahead of you even though he tells you he walked in behind you.  I suppose the walkways could move in there, but we never saw it.  Obviously, TIM looks nothing like we've seen him, even after the implants, and is more like a husk under reaper control.

There were a lot more, but that's what stood out.  I think the indoctrination started with Harbinger, and it kicks into full blast once he gets close enough to you.  IT makes perfect sense, I think their plan was to make a new game with a new hero whose job was to stop Shepard and the Reaper, my guess is Vega.   Either that or they planned on releasing a full ending in DLC.  I don't think they expected the backlash.

On a side note, what troop strength do you need to get the wake up ending?  I thought it was over 6000, but I was at an effective 6400ish and didn't see squat.  I didn't get my readiness up until the middle of the Cerberus base raid though, so I'm wondering if that was the problem.

Modifié par MothrascoolerthenGodzilla, 04 avril 2012 - 05:30 .


#29280
Earthborn_Shepard

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Well.. so there might be another theory out there..

what if the Catalyst is actually the "Shepard" of another cycle before him? Someone who tried to control the Reapers and became the new VI? What if this is the Reaper's final trap.. if there's someone who is close to defeating them.. they offer to obey him in exchange for not destroying him?

I just blew my own mind

#29281
byne

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llbountyhunter wrote...

byne wrote...

nranola wrote...

I just noticed, and I apologize if this has been brought up before, but with the Control ending sequence the Citadel arms close back down - you can see it here. I dunno about you guys but that seems awfully fishy to me.


Whats also strange about that is that defenders of the ending get around the plothole of why the godchild didnt just open the Citadel for Sovereign in ME1 by claiming he cant control the Citadel. In Control, Shep effectively becomes the new Catalyst. If the Catalyst cant control the Citadel, who exactly is closing the arms?


does anyone also notice that the relays arent as badly damaged either? you get the initiial blast, but only synthesis and destroy show them getting blasted apart, so they may even still be intact in "control"


Theres also really no reason for all the blue explosions in control. Shepard isnt altering the Reapers in any way, she is just becoming the Catalyst and ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL over them. You wouldnt need to alter them, since the current Catalyst already controls them.

Modifié par byne, 04 avril 2012 - 05:30 .


#29282
Rifneno

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Sisterofshane wrote...

I had a thought along this line. I was certain that we would never truly "know" why the Reapers came around every fifty thousand years, because they truly didn't know themselves.

They've been at this "cycle" of harvesting for at least a billion years? I think it's become more routine than anything else. Whatever reason they may have had has lost relevance over that kind of period of time. I liken it to driving the same route to work every day for a few years - after about the hundredth time you make the trip, it becomes a second nature to you. Then one day you have an "errand" to perform before work, but you end up missing the turn beacause the drive is so routine.


That's because of the way our brains work to deal with redundant tasks. The same mechanism that makes that drive to work routine, something you can do on 'auto-pilot', is used for most things we do. Even walking. Otherwise we'd have to put conscious thought into every single thing we do. Every step we take, every bite we chew, every movement would require conscious action. Easy to see why we have that 'auto-pilot' mode for redundant tasks. Actually, when I play MMORPGs, I find I play better if I'm talking with someone or otherwise focusing attention on something else. My auto-pilot plays better than I do when focusing. ... Never quite figured out if that was good or bad. =/ ... Anyway, computers (and presumably advanced AI's) don't work the same way. They don't have a singular "focus" like we do. Nor do they deal with forgetfulness. If I have something saved on my PC from 10 years ago and start it up today, the system will hop right back into it exactly as if I'd restarted the task 10 years ago.

JustAidan wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

does bioware really have to explain why the reapers are killing all organic life? I think it may be better if they just leave it at "we are beyond your comprehension", makes the game seem darker because they are alot more advanced and we still beat them.


Have to agree there, mecha-cthulhu is more interesting when you don't know or "beyond comprehension".


I disagree. Fiction is full of villains that are extremely intelligent whose motives are perfectly understandable. A goal is generally simple, a method of achieving that goal can be incredibly complex. Example: the workings of a nuclear power plant are... "complex" doesn't even begin to describe it. But its goal is very simple. "To produce energy to power electronic devices."

ConVito wrote...

I like the idea of kind of leaving it up to the player's imagination, but the general fanbase (meaning the "BioWare sucks" people) wouldn't like it. We all know how much they hate having to think.


What a load of crap. Good writing isn't about leaving major parts of the story (and yes, the antagonist's motives definitely qualify) untold and then saying "you make up the rest, afk" to the fans.

#29283
byne

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Well.. so there might be another theory out there..

what if the Catalyst is actually the "Shepard" of another cycle before him? Someone who tried to control the Reapers and became the new VI? What if this is the Reaper's final trap.. if there's someone who is close to defeating them.. they offer to obey him in exchange for not destroying him?

I just blew my own mind


Thats why I never buy it when people claim control is a peaceful way to end the cycles.

I mean, even assuming it isnt a Reaper trap, once Shep has been the Catalyst for thousands or millions of years, she could lose perspective and decide the original Catalyst was right about synthetics all along, and start the cycles over again.

#29284
Wabajakka

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byne wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Well.. so there might be another theory out there..

what if the Catalyst is actually the "Shepard" of another cycle before him? Someone who tried to control the Reapers and became the new VI? What if this is the Reaper's final trap.. if there's someone who is close to defeating them.. they offer to obey him in exchange for not destroying him?

I just blew my own mind


Thats why I never buy it when people claim control is a peaceful way to end the cycles.

I mean, even assuming it isnt a Reaper trap, once Shep has been the Catalyst for thousands or millions of years, she could lose perspective and decide the original Catalyst was right about synthetics all along, and start the cycles over again.


Exactly, that's why I hate control despite how good it seems. I was asking myself the exact same thing when I was given that option. What if I become a part what I've been trying to fight all along?

Edit: Does anyone else find it a huge coincidence that PAX and the potential ending DLC being announced is on Easter weekend? You know how the religious implications of the holiday correlate with how the DLC is with Shepard? Rembering suffering/death of Christ/Shepard (this whole contrevorsey, suffering of fans) = good friday (april 6th) and revival of Christ/Shepard (April 8th)

Crazy I know, but a very wierd coincidence.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 04 avril 2012 - 05:44 .


#29285
DirtyPhoenix

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nranola wrote...

I just noticed, and I apologize if this has been brought up before, but with the Control ending sequence the Citadel arms close back down - you can see it here. I dunno about you guys but that seems awfully fishy to me.


Yeah i noticed it, the Citadel is not actually shown to be destroyed in the control ending.

#29286
Kroen135

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Well.. so there might be another theory out there..

what if the Catalyst is actually the "Shepard" of another cycle before him? Someone who tried to control the Reapers and became the new VI? What if this is the Reaper's final trap.. if there's someone who is close to defeating them.. they offer to obey him in exchange for not destroying him?

I just blew my own mind


You may be on to something, I just played the Thessia part and the VI mentioned that they were sabotaged by a splinter faction who sought to control the Reapers using the Crucible. This is true in our cycle as well. The VI then goes on to mention how this cycles seem to repeat certain patterns over and over with a few things different but the idea mostly intact. So yeah, perhaps that is the final trap.

#29287
savagejuicebox

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palacios wrote...

n the artbook that comes in the CE of ME3 , they describe some of the modular assets they used for Rannoch as "industrial looking with modular stainless steel sections similar to the Lloyd's of London building"



Now, google Lloyd's of London


Now,
during the last sequence when Shepard takes a breath you should notice a
specific "modular stainless steel section" 3d asset that takes on a
very similar shape. What we have thought of as rebar but oddly
different in pattern but very similar to the Lloyd's of London.


It may be another hint to help us link to the concept of Shepard never leaving London...or he just never left Rannoch! =D


Plus, there's that odd piece in the middleground that sort of looks like the hood of a car with two silver stripes...

Now, trolls go crazy!



Whoa! that looks just like that weird thing at the breath scene!

#29288
Grifterkke

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So did pax reveail anything, was in the clinic today, got me an operation and it hurts like hell!!!!! Or isn't time yet to reveal anything?

#29289
Erethrian

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Orange Tee wrote...

byne wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Well.. so there might be another theory out there..

what if the Catalyst is actually the "Shepard" of another cycle before him? Someone who tried to control the Reapers and became the new VI? What if this is the Reaper's final trap.. if there's someone who is close to defeating them.. they offer to obey him in exchange for not destroying him?

I just blew my own mind


Thats why I never buy it when people claim control is a peaceful way to end the cycles.

I mean, even assuming it isnt a Reaper trap, once Shep has been the Catalyst for thousands or millions of years, she could lose perspective and decide the original Catalyst was right about synthetics all along, and start the cycles over again.


Exactly, that's why I hate control despite how good it seems. I was asking myself the exact same thing when I was given that option. What if I become a part what I've been trying to fight all along?

Edit: Does anyone else find it a huge coincidence that PAX and the potential ending DLC being announced is on Easter weekend? You know how the religious implications of the holiday correlate with how the DLC is with Shepard? Rembering suffering/death of Christ/Shepard (this whole contrevorsey, suffering of fans) = good friday (april 6th) and revivial of Christ/Shepard (April 8th)

Crazy I know, but a very wierd coincidence.


If we get something on April 8th I'll make you a statue.

#29290
S Atomeha

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anything new?

#29291
wheelierdan

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the entire ending was a giant reuse of assets, and youre surprised they reused a metal beam?

#29292
llbountyhunter

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Rifneno wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

I had a thought along this line. I was certain that we would never truly "know" why the Reapers came around every fifty thousand years, because they truly didn't know themselves.

They've been at this "cycle" of harvesting for at least a billion years? I think it's become more routine than anything else. Whatever reason they may have had has lost relevance over that kind of period of time. I liken it to driving the same route to work every day for a few years - after about the hundredth time you make the trip, it becomes a second nature to you. Then one day you have an "errand" to perform before work, but you end up missing the turn beacause the drive is so routine.


That's because of the way our brains work to deal with redundant tasks. The same mechanism that makes that drive to work routine, something you can do on 'auto-pilot', is used for most things we do. Even walking. Otherwise we'd have to put conscious thought into every single thing we do. Every step we take, every bite we chew, every movement would require conscious action. Easy to see why we have that 'auto-pilot' mode for redundant tasks. Actually, when I play MMORPGs, I find I play better if I'm talking with someone or otherwise focusing attention on something else. My auto-pilot plays better than I do when focusing. ... Never quite figured out if that was good or bad. =/ ... Anyway, computers (and presumably advanced AI's) don't work the same way. They don't have a singular "focus" like we do. Nor do they deal with forgetfulness. If I have something saved on my PC from 10 years ago and start it up today, the system will hop right back into it exactly as if I'd restarted the task 10 years ago.

JustAidan wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

does bioware really have to explain why the reapers are killing all organic life? I think it may be better if they just leave it at "we are beyond your comprehension", makes the game seem darker because they are alot more advanced and we still beat them.


Have to agree there, mecha-cthulhu is more interesting when you don't know or "beyond comprehension".


I disagree. Fiction is full of villains that are extremely intelligent whose motives are perfectly understandable. A goal is generally simple, a method of achieving that goal can be incredibly complex. Example: the workings of a nuclear power plant are... "complex" doesn't even begin to describe it. But its goal is very simple. "To produce energy to power electronic devices."

ConVito wrote...

I like the idea of kind of leaving it up to the player's imagination, but the general fanbase (meaning the "BioWare sucks" people) wouldn't like it. We all know how much they hate having to think.


What a load of crap. Good writing isn't about leaving major parts of the story (and yes, the antagonist's motives definitely qualify) untold and then saying "you make up the rest, afk" to the fans.


were not talking about intelligent humans here so its ok. and you dont HAVE to make up the rest- you just dont know. not everything has to be answered, thats the way real life works.

#29293
nranola

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pirate1802 wrote...

nranola wrote...

I just noticed, and I apologize if this has been brought up before, but with the Control ending sequence the Citadel arms close back down - you can see it here. I dunno about you guys but that seems awfully fishy to me.


Yeah i noticed it, the Citadel is not actually shown to be destroyed in the control ending.

I'm more concerned about why the arms were shown to be closing. Why close them? Why not just leave them open? And who exactly is closing the arms?

The Reapers wanted those arms closed. The implications... they aren't pretty. It makes me think that Shepard did cave to the Reapers in the Control ending.

Well, that's my take on it anyway.

Modifié par nranola, 04 avril 2012 - 05:52 .


#29294
Wabajakka

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Erethrian wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

byne wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Well.. so there might be another theory out there..

what if the Catalyst is actually the "Shepard" of another cycle before him? Someone who tried to control the Reapers and became the new VI? What if this is the Reaper's final trap.. if there's someone who is close to defeating them.. they offer to obey him in exchange for not destroying him?

I just blew my own mind


Thats why I never buy it when people claim control is a peaceful way to end the cycles.

I mean, even assuming it isnt a Reaper trap, once Shep has been the Catalyst for thousands or millions of years, she could lose perspective and decide the original Catalyst was right about synthetics all along, and start the cycles over again.


Exactly, that's why I hate control despite how good it seems. I was asking myself the exact same thing when I was given that option. What if I become a part what I've been trying to fight all along?

Edit: Does anyone else find it a huge coincidence that PAX and the potential ending DLC being announced is on Easter weekend? You know how the religious implications of the holiday correlate with how the DLC is with Shepard? Rembering suffering/death of Christ/Shepard (this whole contrevorsey, suffering of fans) = good friday (april 6th) and revivial of Christ/Shepard (April 8th)

Crazy I know, but a very wierd coincidence.


If we get something on April 8th I'll make you a statue.


Lol I look forward to it....

#29295
LeRavelle

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savagejuicebox wrote...

palacios wrote...

n the artbook that comes in the CE of ME3 , they describe some of the modular assets they used for Rannoch as "industrial looking with modular stainless steel sections similar to the Lloyd's of London building"



Now, google Lloyd's of London


Now,
during the last sequence when Shepard takes a breath you should notice a
specific "modular stainless steel section" 3d asset that takes on a
very similar shape. What we have thought of as rebar but oddly
different in pattern but very similar to the Lloyd's of London.


It may be another hint to help us link to the concept of Shepard never leaving London...or he just never left Rannoch! =D


Plus, there's that odd piece in the middleground that sort of looks like the hood of a car with two silver stripes...

Now, trolls go crazy!



Whoa! that looks just like that weird thing at the breath scene!


I honestly don't see steel or a car, just congrete rubble.

#29296
Rifneno

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llbountyhunter wrote...

were not talking about intelligent humans here so its ok. and you dont HAVE to make up the rest- you just dont know. not everything has to be answered, thats the way real life works.


I was not aware this game is a documentary.  Those poor people.

#29297
JustAidan

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Rifneno wrote...

JustAidan wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

does bioware really have to explain why the reapers are killing all organic life? I think it may be better if they just leave it at "we are beyond your comprehension", makes the game seem darker because they are alot more advanced and we still beat them.


Have to agree there, mecha-cthulhu is more interesting when you don't know or "beyond comprehension".


I disagree. Fiction is full of villains that are extremely intelligent whose motives are perfectly understandable. A goal is generally simple, a method of achieving that goal can be incredibly complex. Example: the workings of a nuclear power plant are... "complex" doesn't even begin to describe it. But its goal is very simple. "To produce energy to power electronic devices."


However it is possbile to relate to many villiains in fiction on some level. Envy, hatred, fear etc are emotions we can experience adn that motivate possible villians. The difficulty in trying to relate our perspectives to billion year old sentient organo-synthetic star ships makes writing such a purpose a trial that could easily fall flat of our expectations. We already, arguably, have the goal of the Reapers' (Reaper's?) in a simple form: "To produce more of themselves from acceptable species". I just think that unless their purpose and over arching goals were extremely well written and presented that it would simply fall short in the impact of not knowing at all.

So in short, I would like an explanation but any that I can think off right now would end up diminishing the Reapers.

I definitely hate the current purpose of the Reapers in the ending taken at face value but I also dislike the original Dark Energy purpose as almost tries to paint the Reapers in a more favourable light: Preventing dark energy expansion to protect the galaxy.

Rifneno wrote...

ConVito wrote...

I like the idea of kind of leaving it up to the player's imagination, but the general fanbase (meaning the "BioWare sucks" people) wouldn't like it. We all know how much they hate having to think.


What a load of crap. Good writing isn't about leaving major parts of the story (and yes, the antagonist's motives definitely qualify) untold and then saying "you make up the rest, afk" to the fans.


Uuh yeah agreed, I would like the motives of the antagonist at the very least implied.

#29298
Skillz1986

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Goddamnit...playimg on insanity right now..and i have to say, marauder shields is the deadliest son of a b**ch in space!!!! did not die once before that sucker...damn...5th attempt now.

#29299
llbountyhunter

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Rifneno wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

were not talking about intelligent humans here so its ok. and you dont HAVE to make up the rest- you just dont know. not everything has to be answered, thats the way real life works.


I was not aware this game is a documentary.  Those poor people.


this game has more detail put into it than any documentary ive seen, just look at the number of codexes.

#29300
palacios

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I think they should make a higher difficulty level than insanity. Insanity was a bit easy.