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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#29326
Sisterofshane

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Caz Tirin wrote...

At this point, with The Announcement only a couple days off, what I'm to say is akin to beating a dead horse.  However, I wanted to have this posted before The Announcement was made.  I actually wish I had made this post a couple weeks ago when it first occurred to me, but oh well.

Do I agree with IT?  No, I do not.  Part of why is irrelevant to what I'm about to say but part of it is what lead me to this conclusion.  That part being the way the story was delivered and laid out.  If BioWare uses IT as their explanation, it's not because that was their intent all along, but rather a lazy, easy out.  There have been interviews and articles about where the game was originally planned to to go and IT was never mentioned.  Dark Energy was, however.  Nothing else in any of the three games is delivered with such exaggerated subtlety as IT is.  Indeed, to claim that was the intended ending shines further light on the fact that BioWare did a poor job writing the ending.  If you need evidence of this, just look at these forums alone and the resulting backlash.  If IT were the intended result, there would have been clearer clues.

So, if they use or claim IT, it's not because it was their intention all along, but rather because it gives them an easy out.

I don't expect this point of view to be popular and because of that people will attack me and insult me.  But the purpose of this post was to put this out there before The Announcement.  Good day, folks.


Now I personally believe that, the game as was presented to us never intended to end with Indoctrination.  However, there is proof that Indoctrination was mulled around as a possibility in the end, but later "scrapped" due to wierd game mechanics (seen in the Final Hours App).

This got me to thinking the other night -- the whole argument on speculation and what not.  What if they merely only scrapped the "uncontrollable Shepard" game play because it made the ending way too obvious?  One of the requirements to believing indoctrination is that the player (or the indoctrinatee, perhaps?) has to believe that they are in full control.  People here have been saying it all along - any MORE evidence would make it too obvious - it would feel scripted and cheap, and probably have a worse backlash then the ending has now, because then we would know that we were NEVER in control of the story.

Now, the second part of indoctrination theory - that they intended all along to release the "real" ending, is the part I do not believe.  To me, the whole "speculation" thing proves this.  The stargazer ending, to me, was to reassure the player that the Reapers truly were defeated.  I still believe, however, that this was meant to be it - the end.  The player was supposed to decide for him/herself whether or not the ending was true, or whether it was all a "dream".

Ah, I guess we shall see if/when they release something at PAX in a few days.

#29327
Legion12Centurion

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llbountyhunter wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

were not talking about intelligent humans here so its ok. and you dont HAVE to make up the rest- you just dont know. not everything has to be answered, thats the way real life works.


I was not aware this game is a documentary.  Those poor people.


this game has more detail put into it than any documentary ive seen, just look at the number of codexes.


Yes if does they have really created something unicue and special and they should be real proud of it!

Regarding that Saren comparision I fully Agree its like we get Sarens perspective in this matter...

When I replayed the first game recently I felt so sad for him he is this Specter anti hero guy who wants to save the galaxy but ends upp as a slave of the beings he sought to destroy or put down. He is still jackass for vanting humanity to be eradicated. 

I think the 2 characters you really can compare with Shephard is Saren, Tim and Shephard... They all want the samt thing but have all different agendas and paths to their goal and sometimes their fates intertvines while Sarens ended in Me1 Illusive man is still left!

#29328
savagejuicebox

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byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

Goddamnit...playimg on insanity right now..and i have to say, marauder shields is the deadliest son of a b**ch in space!!!! did not die once before that sucker...damn...5th attempt now.


I just finished my first insanity playthrough. London is nerdrage enducing. Best death was one when defending the missile trucks. Banshee was coming after me so I hauled it out of the store I was in. Or rather, I tried to. Since every single fricking thing you can do in this game is all attached to one button, I instead used the shelves for "cover". You remember that scene where the entire Migrant Fleet opens fire on that one Reaper on Rannoch? Yeah. That's what the marauders and cannibals did to me.

... :(


Banshees were the only thing that cause me any trouble at all on my Insanity run. (Other than Marauder Shields)

Everything else was easily handled by

1: Charge
2: Nova
3: Shotgun

Repeat as needed.


Vanguards are awesome.


Yeah in single player, but in multiplayer vanguards are the biggest douche nozzles known to man. Not only are they point ****s but the get downed out in the open away from teammates ALL THE TIME! I hate them(in mp).

<_<

#29329
njfluffy19

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Legion12Centurion wrote...

Yes if does they have really created something unicue and special and they should be real proud of it!

Regarding that Saren comparision I fully Agree its like we get Sarens perspective in this matter...

When I replayed the first game recently I felt so sad for him he is this Specter anti hero guy who wants to save the galaxy but ends upp as a slave of the beings he sought to destroy or put down. He is still jackass for vanting humanity to be eradicated. 

I think the 2 characters you really can compare with Shephard is Saren, Tim and Shephard... They all want the samt thing but have all different agendas and paths to their goal and sometimes their fates intertvines while Sarens ended in Me1 Illusive man is still left!


Well, if you read the books you discover Saren is really just a racist pr*ck. He wants the turians to be top-dog, and that's why he wanted Sovereign in the first place. He didn't want to save the galaxy to begin with. He wanted power. What a jerk!

And yeah, he wanted humanity to go bye bye.

#29330
byne

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savagejuicebox wrote...

byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

Goddamnit...playimg on insanity right now..and i have to say, marauder shields is the deadliest son of a b**ch in space!!!! did not die once before that sucker...damn...5th attempt now.


I just finished my first insanity playthrough. London is nerdrage enducing. Best death was one when defending the missile trucks. Banshee was coming after me so I hauled it out of the store I was in. Or rather, I tried to. Since every single fricking thing you can do in this game is all attached to one button, I instead used the shelves for "cover". You remember that scene where the entire Migrant Fleet opens fire on that one Reaper on Rannoch? Yeah. That's what the marauders and cannibals did to me.

... :(


Banshees were the only thing that cause me any trouble at all on my Insanity run. (Other than Marauder Shields)

Everything else was easily handled by

1: Charge
2: Nova
3: Shotgun

Repeat as needed.


Vanguards are awesome.


Yeah in single player, but in multiplayer vanguards are the biggest douche nozzles known to man. Not only are they point ****s but the get downed out in the open away from teammates ALL THE TIME! I hate them(in mp).

<_<


You must just play with bad Vanguards. I almost never die, and when I do I will use medi-gel immediately, unless I'm literally a foot or two away from a teammate.

#29331
njfluffy19

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Savage, I totally agree with you. We were playing qwith three adepts (I know, lol, we are cheap) and detonating each other's explosions up the wazoo and this vanguard is like "I'mma be a boss" so he novas off our explosions and just gets derped repeatedly in the open. Oh my god. That was so annoying. This was gold. What a p*ss off. Made it to wave 10 and his damage was under 5k. >_<

Edit: Under 5k cuz he was dead 90% of the time.

Modifié par njfluffy19, 04 avril 2012 - 06:29 .


#29332
Tirian Thorn

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savagejuicebox wrote...

Yeah in single player, but in multiplayer vanguards are the biggest douche nozzles known to man. Not only are they point ****s but the get downed out in the open away from teammates ALL THE TIME! I hate them(in mp).

<_<


I love Vanguard in MP.  They can clean up.  BUT - I can see where you wouldn't like them.  I've been killed by teammates so many times because of "Charging" in and then getting in their crossfire. 

I just use the Avenger Assault Rifle (X) and that's the only weapon I carry. 

As an adept I use just a pistol and just spam out biotic attacks.  (way more party friendly) 

#29333
savagejuicebox

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byne wrote...

savagejuicebox wrote...

byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

Goddamnit...playimg on insanity right now..and i have to say, marauder shields is the deadliest son of a b**ch in space!!!! did not die once before that sucker...damn...5th attempt now.


I just finished my first insanity playthrough. London is nerdrage enducing. Best death was one when defending the missile trucks. Banshee was coming after me so I hauled it out of the store I was in. Or rather, I tried to. Since every single fricking thing you can do in this game is all attached to one button, I instead used the shelves for "cover". You remember that scene where the entire Migrant Fleet opens fire on that one Reaper on Rannoch? Yeah. That's what the marauders and cannibals did to me.

... :(


Banshees were the only thing that cause me any trouble at all on my Insanity run. (Other than Marauder Shields)

Everything else was easily handled by

1: Charge
2: Nova
3: Shotgun

Repeat as needed.


Vanguards are awesome.


Yeah in single player, but in multiplayer vanguards are the biggest douche nozzles known to man. Not only are they point ****s but the get downed out in the open away from teammates ALL THE TIME! I hate them(in mp).

<_<


You must just play with bad Vanguards. I almost never die, and when I do I will use medi-gel immediately, unless I'm literally a foot or two away from a teammate.


Yeah i suppose, its always me and two friends and one rando. The rando ALWAYS is a vanguard oh and the rando always sucks....

#29334
Legion12Centurion

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Sisterofshane wrote...

Caz Tirin wrote...

At this point, with The Announcement only a couple days off, what I'm to say is akin to beating a dead horse.  However, I wanted to have this posted before The Announcement was made.  I actually wish I had made this post a couple weeks ago when it first occurred to me, but oh well.

Do I agree with IT?  No, I do not.  Part of why is irrelevant to what I'm about to say but part of it is what lead me to this conclusion.  That part being the way the story was delivered and laid out.  If BioWare uses IT as their explanation, it's not because that was their intent all along, but rather a lazy, easy out.  There have been interviews and articles about where the game was originally planned to to go and IT was never mentioned.  Dark Energy was, however.  Nothing else in any of the three games is delivered with such exaggerated subtlety as IT is.  Indeed, to claim that was the intended ending shines further light on the fact that BioWare did a poor job writing the ending.  If you need evidence of this, just look at these forums alone and the resulting backlash.  If IT were the intended result, there would have been clearer clues.

So, if they use or claim IT, it's not because it was their intention all along, but rather because it gives them an easy out.

I don't expect this point of view to be popular and because of that people will attack me and insult me.  But the purpose of this post was to put this out there before The Announcement.  Good day, folks.


Now I personally believe that, the game as was presented to us never intended to end with Indoctrination.  However, there is proof that Indoctrination was mulled around as a possibility in the end, but later "scrapped" due to wierd game mechanics (seen in the Final Hours App).

This got me to thinking the other night -- the whole argument on speculation and what not.  What if they merely only scrapped the "uncontrollable Shepard" game play because it made the ending way too obvious?  One of the requirements to believing indoctrination is that the player (or the indoctrinatee, perhaps?) has to believe that they are in full control.  People here have been saying it all along - any MORE evidence would make it too obvious - it would feel scripted and cheap, and probably have a worse backlash then the ending has now, because then we would know that we were NEVER in control of the story.

Now, the second part of indoctrination theory - that they intended all along to release the "real" ending, is the part I do not believe.  To me, the whole "speculation" thing proves this.  The stargazer ending, to me, was to reassure the player that the Reapers truly were defeated.  I still believe, however, that this was meant to be it - the end.  The player was supposed to decide for him/herself whether or not the ending was true, or whether it was all a "dream".

Ah, I guess we shall see if/when they release something at PAX in a few days.


I agree with you well said sir you get a space magick smiley!:wizard:

And thats why I didnt really hate it i ended before everything settled... I know but look at the reactions the pain of not knowing... What game has ever done this for you emotionally. I mean it has created Anger, Fear, joy, laughter, tears and jeaoulusy amongs other!

I think this is what seperates games from Movies and Books, we become such a part of the universe they create for us to enjoy.

But lets wait until PAX and see maybe we can still keep this thread on for awhile still speculating:D

Its nice to see a good comunity for once had a really bad experience with the Leauge of Legend recently lol what is wrong with people Im new I dont understand every single koncept and my favorite hate message was that they want me to burn on a byzantinecrucifix and get smacked by the pope until I die a horribly painfull death and then theyll pee on my corpse and set it ablaze and spread the remains to a siberiand wolf pack whom will po they remains in a radioactive dump....

Here I get a Heart and a space Magick smiley for trying even if I dont have all the right ansvers... so sweet:wub:

#29335
byne

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savagejuicebox wrote...


Yeah i suppose, its always me and two friends and one rando. The rando ALWAYS is a vanguard oh and the rando always sucks....


To play Vanguard on anything higher than Bronze, you should be required to prove you understand how Vanguards work by first soloing an entire bronze game to extraction.

Bonus points if you dont die at all.

#29336
savagejuicebox

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njfluffy19 wrote...

Savage, I totally agree with you. We were playing qwith three adepts (I know, lol, we are cheap) and detonating each other's explosions up the wazoo and this vanguard is like "I'mma be a boss" so he novas off our explosions and just gets derped repeatedly in the open. Oh my god. That was so annoying. This was gold. What a p*ss off. Made it to wave 10 and his damage was under 5k. >_<

Edit: Under 5k cuz he was dead 90% of the time.


I call them derpguards... no offence byne! :P

#29337
Rifneno

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byne wrote...

Well, when you replay games as many times as I do, the class that can clear rooms of enemies the quickest is the best class to play.

Thats why I've beaten the game 5 times as a vanguard and only once on my sentinel and soldier characters.


I'm sure I do replay them as much, I just have enough free time to not worry about the quickest way. :) Anyway, I'm not sure vanguard is the quickest. Quickest implies most dps. I'd imagine the most dps would be some type of biotic combined with Liara and/or Kaiden. Just go around spamming biotic detonations.

Well in ME2 and ME1, my preferred class was soldier, since the HMWA assault rifle with frictionless materials in ME1, and the Revenant in ME2 are just ridiculously awesome.


Mattock > Revenant. At least if you were a soldier and not using AR's because of the collector ship training. Adrenalin rush on mattock in ME2 was just... not even fair.

I love and hate the HMWA. I loved using it, but I hate that it inspired thermal clips because of a few whiners about weapon heat not mattering. The ammo system in ME2 made me want to punch a nun. It's a lot better in 3 with replenishing clips scattered around, but I still prefer the old system.

balance5050 wrote...

Infiltrator here, boring I know, but I like being a ninja.


Don't be silly. Phantoms are ninjas, not infiltrators.
I'd love the infiltrator gimmick if I was better at headshots. As it is, I'm better off with less aim-dependant classes. :(

njfluffy19 wrote...

Well, if you read the books you discover Saren is really just a racist pr*ck. He wants the turians to be top-dog, and that's why he wanted Sovereign in the first place. He didn't want to save the galaxy to begin with. He wanted power. What a jerk!

And yeah, he wanted humanity to go bye bye.


ME3 should've had a scene where Garrus tells Shepard "You know, we turians had an illusive man once too." "Oh? What happened to him?" "You killed him. Thanks, by the way."

#29338
byne

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savagejuicebox wrote...

njfluffy19 wrote...

Savage, I totally agree with you. We were playing qwith three adepts (I know, lol, we are cheap) and detonating each other's explosions up the wazoo and this vanguard is like "I'mma be a boss" so he novas off our explosions and just gets derped repeatedly in the open. Oh my god. That was so annoying. This was gold. What a p*ss off. Made it to wave 10 and his damage was under 5k. >_<

Edit: Under 5k cuz he was dead 90% of the time.


I call them derpguards... no offence byne! :P


If you're a Vanguard and dont have over 5k by like round 3 at most, you ARE a derpguard.

#29339
JustAidan

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savagejuicebox wrote...

byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Skillz1986 wrote...

Goddamnit...playimg on insanity right now..and i have to say, marauder shields is the deadliest son of a b**ch in space!!!! did not die once before that sucker...damn...5th attempt now.


I just finished my first insanity playthrough. London is nerdrage enducing. Best death was one when defending the missile trucks. Banshee was coming after me so I hauled it out of the store I was in. Or rather, I tried to. Since every single fricking thing you can do in this game is all attached to one button, I instead used the shelves for "cover". You remember that scene where the entire Migrant Fleet opens fire on that one Reaper on Rannoch? Yeah. That's what the marauders and cannibals did to me.

... :(


Banshees were the only thing that cause me any trouble at all on my Insanity run. (Other than Marauder Shields)

Everything else was easily handled by

1: Charge
2: Nova
3: Shotgun

Repeat as needed.


Vanguards are awesome.


Yeah in single player, but in multiplayer vanguards are the biggest douche nozzles known to man. Not only are they point ****s but the get downed out in the open away from teammates ALL THE TIME! I hate them(in mp).

<_<


*sniff* :crying:Sorry....after all those times I decided to roleplay a bit in MP during difficult games and play a self-sacraficing character and draw the enemies away from the extraction point too.

(Vanguard is like playing as Superman in a cover-based shooter.  ' Ah Yes "Cover", we have dismissed that tactic')

#29340
njfluffy19

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You always make me laugh, Rifneno. Here's a cookie.

#29341
blueboxblues

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njfluffy19 wrote...

You always make me laugh, Rifneno. Here's a cookie.


QFT

#29342
Caz Tirin

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I... I'm shocked. Every interaction I've had with IT supporters so far has been negative and confrontational. Because of the reaction I received to my post on page 1173, I feel I must apologize for any of the confrontational and/or negative undertones it has toward or against the IT crowd. I still don't believe IT and no matter what BioWare says I will never be convinced it was the intended story progression, but it's clear (now) I've only encountered the fanatical morons until today. Thank you to those that are kind and friendly about this topic.

#29343
Dwailing

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njfluffy19 wrote...

You always make me laugh, Rifneno. Here's a cookie.


And here's some orange juice.  Now, go donate a half gallon of blood to a creepy baby alien. :devil:

#29344
Either.Ardrey

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Tirian Thorn wrote...

savagejuicebox wrote...

Yeah in single player, but in multiplayer vanguards are the biggest douche nozzles known to man. Not only are they point ****s but the get downed out in the open away from teammates ALL THE TIME! I hate them(in mp).

<_<


I love Vanguard in MP.  They can clean up.  BUT - I can see where you wouldn't like them.  I've been killed by teammates so many times because of "Charging" in and then getting in their crossfire. 

I just use the Avenger Assault Rifle (X) and that's the only weapon I carry. 

As an adept I use just a pistol and just spam out biotic attacks.  (way more party friendly) 


How can you die from friendly crossfire when it's not supposed to do damage?

EDIT: I really want to know if this is possible. An article I read said that weapons have an advanced friend/foe ID system so that it doesn't damage friendlies. It would be nice to know if the article was incorrect.

Modifié par Either.Ardrey, 04 avril 2012 - 06:53 .


#29345
Dwailing

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Caz Tirin wrote...

I... I'm shocked. Every interaction I've had with IT supporters so far has been negative and confrontational. Because of the reaction I received to my post on page 1173, I feel I must apologize for any of the confrontational and/or negative undertones it has toward or against the IT crowd. I still don't believe IT and no matter what BioWare says I will never be convinced it was the intended story progression, but it's clear (now) I've only encountered the fanatical morons until today. Thank you to those that are kind and friendly about this topic.


Yeah, a few of us can be a little crazy.

#29346
byne

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Rifneno wrote...

byne wrote...

Well, when you replay games as many times as I do, the class that can clear rooms of enemies the quickest is the best class to play.

Thats why I've beaten the game 5 times as a vanguard and only once on my sentinel and soldier characters.


I'm sure I do replay them as much, I just have enough free time to not worry about the quickest way. :) Anyway, I'm not sure vanguard is the quickest. Quickest implies most dps. I'd imagine the most dps would be some type of biotic combined with Liara and/or Kaiden. Just go around spamming biotic detonations.


Vanguard's double pull, combined with Warp/Singularity from Liara, and Dark Channel from Javik that jumps to a new enemy when the one its on dies makes for a lot of biotic explosions as a Vanguard.

Not that you really need them, Nova takes care of entire rooms on its own well enough.

#29347
Soul Tumor

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Why does shepards voice have a dream like echo when he is talking to starchild?

#29348
DarthSliver

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byne wrote...

savagejuicebox wrote...


Yeah i suppose, its always me and two friends and one rando. The rando ALWAYS is a vanguard oh and the rando always sucks....


To play Vanguard on anything higher than Bronze, you should be required to prove you understand how Vanguards work by first soloing an entire bronze game to extraction.

Bonus points if you dont die at all.


I dont understand Vanguards worth crap, I only play them on Bronze and maybe Silver, I cant get away with using them on Silver. But when it comes to gold I play as a class i am actually good with, Sentinal but of course i still have yet to unlock my Turian Sentinal and my Asari Adept. 

#29349
Tirian Thorn

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Either.Ardrey wrote...

Tirian Thorn wrote...

savagejuicebox wrote...

Yeah in single player, but in multiplayer vanguards are the biggest douche nozzles known to man. Not only are they point ****s but the get downed out in the open away from teammates ALL THE TIME! I hate them(in mp).

<_<


I love Vanguard in MP.  They can clean up.  BUT - I can see where you wouldn't like them.  I've been killed by teammates so many times because of "Charging" in and then getting in their crossfire. 

I just use the Avenger Assault Rifle (X) and that's the only weapon I carry. 

As an adept I use just a pistol and just spam out biotic attacks.  (way more party friendly) 


How can you die from friendly crossfire when it's not supposed to do damage?


Your squadmates weapons can do damage to you.  If you hit another player you will hear something like "check your fire" or "cut it out"

#29350
Dwailing

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Soul Tumor wrote...

Why does shepards voice have a dream like echo when he is talking to starchild?


Uh, cause it IS a dream.  At least if you believe, like me, IT.  Also, did you notice that you can hear Mark Meer's and Jennifer Hale's voices overlaid on the Star-Brat?  I thought that was pretty significant, too.