57139 réponses à ce sujet

[MPSai]

TamiBx wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Sl4sh3r wrote...

I made a video with the explanation of Indoctrination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch

Seems like all of this is happening to Shep towards the end of the game

I noticed this. Shepard is definitely in a fragile psychological state towards the end of the game, would have been a pretty prime opportunity for the Reapers to try and indocrinate him or at least trick him into picking bad choices.

I would be thoroughly impressed if BioWare went through with this... Even if this wasn't exactly their original vision, this would pretty much save the ending to this game if they followed this.

If this was their plan from the start, I would pretty much hail BioWare as devious gods of RPGs.

OMG. OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG. This. This. THIS. 
It makes perfect sense! Ghost presence (the stupid kid), ringing noises that gives headaches (Vega complaining about the weird noise on Normandy), trusting the enemy and betraying your own friends (choosing any other ending besides destroy reapers, because then you are trusting the enemy). Also, slow indoctrination lasts for years...

I wanna see a video now with this codex reading showing footage from the game that lines up with it, with both male and female Shepard.

[Elmogaming]

[quote]Sl4sh3r wrote...

[quote]Lotarion wrote...

Colectors wanted Shepard's body for something. I think it was crucial to finish the "human reaper" thing. If they want to create a Repaer that contains crucial data about humans then they need their greates hero.. So if Blue is indoctrination i think Green is becoming one with reapers. And you can only get green with enough war effort becouse they must see you truly worthy the "ascension". So once again

Blue - indoctrination
Green - Becoming part of the reaper (like in Colector's base)
Red - Setting yourself free from Harbys grasp.

This is also why Catalist is trying to tell you that green is the best while red is the worst.[/quote]

This **** has got my hopes up... I'd almost rather be left to theory craft like this with everyone than to have BW tell me that we're wrong..

Bioware Wouldent crush the dreams of so many... maybe it wasent planned but we're as ready as we'll ever be to finish the fight....... "Can't it wait a bit? im in the middle of some calibrations"

[honorableshadow]

blooregard wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

Sl4sh3r wrote...

I made a video with the explanation of Indoctrination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch

Seems like all of this is happening to Shep towards the end of the game

I noticed this. Shepard is definitely in a fragile psychological state towards the end of the game, would have been a pretty prime opportunity for the Reapers to try and indocrinate him or at least trick him into picking bad choices.

I would be thoroughly impressed if BioWare went through with this... Even if this wasn't exactly their original vision, this would pretty much save the ending to this game if they followed this.

If this was their plan from the start, I would pretty much hail BioWare as devious gods of RPGs.

leaving your fanbase to deal with an ending where you may have been indoctronated just to release a "true ending" DLC surpasses the trolltastic actions of most religious idols, puts the greek/roman gods douchebaggery to shame, and makes the old testament god look like a kind person. Bioware wouldn't just be the devious gods of RPG they would be beings of such a high level of evil that their troll tactics would be known throughout the multiverse


tl;dr bioware = extradimentional troll gods

I sure hope that whatever DLCs related to the game's ending(s) are free. :'|

[BlackDragonBane]

blooregard wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

When you read the consoles about project lazarus, Shepard actually freaks about a little bit. Shepard starts to question him/herself with questions like "But I'm still me, right?" and that sort of thing. That is the first time I've ever seen Shepard be that way.

There are lots of examples like this throughout the game, but that aspect starts to ramp up quickly at that point.

I found this to be weird. Very weird. Why is Shepard finally having an identity crisis so close to the end?

This seems to lend creedence to the small theory going out there that Shepard never stepped out of the Geth VI/Consensus with Legion.

whats all this about shepard not stepping out of the consensus? that mission is a side quest and completely optional that and it seems like there is alot that goes on between going into the geth consensus and getting blasted by harbinger

It's referring to the conversation you can share with Joker that breaks the 4th wall. Speculating if it actually has any meaning or not.

personally, i just think it was Joker being Joker.

[Fledgey]

Nette wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

When you read the consoles about project lazarus, Shepard actually freaks about a little bit. Shepard starts to question him/herself with questions like "But I'm still me, right?" and that sort of thing. That is the first time I've ever seen Shepard be that way.

There are lots of examples like this throughout the game, but that aspect starts to ramp up quickly at that point.

I found this to be weird. Very weird. Why is Shepard finally having an identity crisis so close to the end?

This seems to lend creedence to the small theory going out there that Shepard never stepped out of the Geth VI/Consensus with Legion.

hey, that got me thinking....didn't Shep loose contact with Legion right when she was about to step out of the geth VI? 

No no no no no you're taking this tangent way too far. Stop right there.

...I should go

[Elmogaming]

[quote]Elmogaming wrote...

[quote]Sl4sh3r wrote...

[quote]Lotarion wrote...

Colectors wanted Shepard's body for something. I think it was crucial to finish the "human reaper" thing. If they want to create a Repaer that contains crucial data about humans then they need their greates hero.. So if Blue is indoctrination i think Green is becoming one with reapers. And you can only get green with enough war effort becouse they must see you truly worthy the "ascension". So once again

Blue - indoctrination
Green - Becoming part of the reaper (like in Colector's base)
Red - Setting yourself free from Harbys grasp.

This is also why Catalist is trying to tell you that green is the best while red is the worst.[/quote]

This **** has got my hopes up... I'd almost rather be left to theory craft like this with everyone than to have BW tell me that we're wrong..

Bioware Wouldent crush the dreams of so many... maybe it wasent planned but we're as ready as we'll ever be to finish the fight....... "Can't it wait a bit? im in the middle of some calibrations"
[/quote]

Woops i messed up the Thing

[Lambchopz]

lookingglassmind wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...

When you read the consoles about project lazarus, Shepard actually freaks about a little bit. Shepard starts to question him/herself with questions like "But I'm still me, right?" and that sort of thing. That is the first time I've ever seen Shepard be that way.

There are lots of examples like this throughout the game, but that aspect starts to ramp up quickly at that point.

I found this to be weird. Very weird. Why is Shepard finally having an identity crisis so close to the end?

This seems to lend creedence to the small theory going out there that Shepard never stepped out of the Geth VI/Consensus with Legion.

It's entirely possible this was just added to try and add a more human and emotional side to Shepard (it worked by the way for that too).

It also falls squarely in line with this whole theory and kind of fits the idea of a gradual process of indoctrination, which the Reapers have been known to do many times before.

[Path Of Sorrows]

If this is the case (and this thread has given me the best hope I have), I will be truly in awe.

How would BioWare 'release' the revelation? An update/patch?

Their message at the end, "Shepard's journey is complete, they defeated the Reapers" blahblah, is that manipulation (from the devs)?

And just what about the grandpa telling their kiddo about the story of Shepard?

Modifié par Asterantha, 12 mars 2012 - 02:35 .

[Raxxman]

It's a really nice theory.

But it just leaves the problem that suckerpunching the audience isn't good writing.

[Lugaidster]

OMG, the level of epicness this theory is conjuring up to become is scaring me. It seems almost too perfect...

[Lugaidster]

Raxxman wrote...

It's a really nice theory.

But it just leaves the problem that suckerpunching the audience isn't good writing.

Unless they just leave it at that. 

[byne]

Raxxman wrote...

It's a really nice theory.

But it just leaves the problem that suckerpunching the audience isn't good writing.

To be fair, neither are the endings as they currently stand.

[Omega Scythe]

Even if all of this is just reaching and conjecture on our parts, and Bioware never had any such troll-tastic plans, by creating this theory we have presented Bioware with an ENORMOUS opportunity.

Think about it. It's too good to pass up. A lot of us are even openly admitting that we'd be willing to pay for it. If Bioware doesn't immediately scrap whatever plans they have to gleefully jump into the growing pool of potential profits, there is a severe lack of business logic in that company.

On the plus side, ignoring the opportunity for more money would also mean EA has not influenced them as much as we thought.

Modifié par Omega Scythe, 12 mars 2012 - 02:38 .

[Levvi]

krystalevenstar wrote...

byne wrote...

I was just talking to EDI, and she said something that made Shepard ask "Are you saying submission is preferable to extinction?", which is a quote from Saren on Virmire, I believe. I find it odd that this quote is fresh enough in Shepard's mind that s/he'd remember it in a talk with EDI.

I find it even more odd that the two endings we are putting forth as accepting Reaper indoctrination (in other words, submission) are the endings that DONT cause the extinction of the Reapers and the Geth.

If its all a hallucination/indoctrination, it could be Harbinger trying to convince Shepard that submission is indeed preferable to extinction, like Sovereign did to Saren.

I forgot about that conversation with EDI. This is all foreshadowing people.

Agreed, especially since I have accepted his hallucination theory as canon.

[LenabotSE]

I initially dismissed this theory as wishful thinking, but I've seen the light and have been converted.  Hallelujah, amen!  I'm actually going to start a second playthrough with the sole intent of looking for all the little clues throughout the game.  The indoctrination theory is, at this point, the only logical solution to this fiasco.  

Apologies if I repeat anything.  100+ pages is a lot to read through.


* The Normandy could have been compromised when it was infected with the Reaper virus in ME2.  EDI locked it down for the rest of that game, but it could have infected various subsystems to facilitate indoctrination, even if Shepard managed to blow up the Collectors.  A Reaper contingency plan that could float around undetected. 

* Vega seems to be a voice of reason, if only because he's so new to the whole thing.  "It's like the Citadel was made to keep people calm."  I actually agree with some comments that, since its a critical Reaper device, it could be engineered to promote a sense of tranquility and submission.  Maybe, apart from genetic meddling, that's why the Keepers are so docile.

* The Derelict Reaper mission in ME2 is potential foreshadowing.  The indoctrinated crew comments on seeing things that aren't there, whether it's structural (Anderson: "The walls seem like they're shifting, moving!") or just related to objects (the kid).  It even extends to memories and beliefs.  Basically, indoctrination messes with every sense of perception you have. 

* The Catalyst is just an unreliable narrator.  It makes no negative comments about Control or Synthesis - even if both options present potential drawbacks - and lays the guilt on thick for Destroy.  It's a fairly big deal that it's the only one the Reaper AI doesn't. want. you. to. pick. 

* Saren was meant to be a sympathetic villain, and your situation is basically meant to mirror his in a form of tragic poetry.  The indoctrination throughout the game is meant to break down Shepard's confidence and hope -- pushing the player closer toward Saren's urge to compromise and work with them in order to avoid eradication.  Or to the Illusive Man, who blindly wants to control them even though that's a really bad idea.

* The final battle, then, is effectively against Harbinger itself.  It's just a battle where the player's knowledge of indoctrination is tested after three games of warnings.  You just get to imagine that Shepard finishes the fight after you wake back up.  Which sucks, but.... it's better than the alternatives.

[Foulpancake]

Never stepping out of the VI is interesting, but i don't think it holds nearly as much water as Harbinger's beam theory.

[Sheparded]

Its pointless playing any mass effect game anymore, all my time and effort was for 3 endings.

[lookingglassmind]

Raxxman wrote...

It's a really nice theory.

But it just leaves the problem that suckerpunching the audience isn't good writing.

I'd argue that it is, actually. This is a degree of player immersion hitherto unseen, if this is what BioWare has actually done with the endings.

[Niemack Saarinen]

Lotarion wrote...



Blue - indoctrination
Green - Becoming part of the reaper (like in Colector's base)
Red - Setting yourself free from Harbys grasp.

To expand upon this, i dont know if its been stated or if people believe in color meanings or how their preceived but i figured people might find this interesting ( i do lend it some creedence there is power in color - ask any dictators or propogandists. ) 

Blue:   http://crystal-cure.com/blue.html

Green: http://crystal-cure.com/green.html

Red: crystal-cure.com/red.html

Too lazy to find better sites but if you research colors you'll find similiar explanations.


Tl:dr   Red is blood  - red is life force, fighting, temper, passion.   green and blue are calming, sortive fits in line with indoctrination.

Modifié par Niemack Saarinen, 12 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[Uezurii]

[quote]Elmogaming wrote...

[quote]Sl4sh3r wrote...

[quote]Lotarion wrote...

Colectors wanted Shepard's body for something. I think it was crucial to finish the "human reaper" thing. If they want to create a Repaer that contains crucial data about humans then they need their greates hero.. So if Blue is indoctrination i think Green is becoming one with reapers. And you can only get green with enough war effort becouse they must see you truly worthy the "ascension". So once again

Blue - indoctrination
Green - Becoming part of the reaper (like in Colector's base)
Red - Setting yourself free from Harbys grasp.

This is also why Catalist is trying to tell you that green is the best while red is the worst.[/quote]
[/quote]
I think it's pretty much this. Also because the Red ending is the only ending with Shepard "waking" up again surrounded by rubble, which is stone, and I'm pretty sure the citadel isn't made out of stone.

Something that bugged me too is that when Shepard asks the God child with the green choice if there will be peace, the god child kind of avoids the question.

Modifié par Uezurii, 12 mars 2012 - 02:41 .

[Asepsis]

I was thinking that too, the whole time I was going "IT'S THE MAMA OF THE REAPERS DON'T LISTEN" but then I realized there was no escaping trying all the endings and figured it was just new writing.

I thought Shepard was indoctrinated, that's the only way listening to the AI that controls the reapers would make sense.

I hope they do what Fallout 3 did and release some sort of expansion that gives us a better ending, the endings they have are good for bad or middle path endings, but we need at least one GOOD and happy ending for those of us who actually spent hours doing every single mission possible and choosing as many good choices as possible to get a decent ending.

[Lambchopz]

Omega Scythe wrote...

Even if all of this is just reaching and conjecture on our parts, and Bioware never had any such trolltasic plans, by creating this theory we have presented Bioware with an ENORMOUS opportunity.

Think about it. It's too good to pass up. A lot of us are even openly admitting that we'd be willing to pay for it. If Bioware doesn't immediately scrap whatever plans they have to gleefully jump into the growing pool of potential profits, there is a severe lack of business logic in that company.

On the plus side, ignoring the opportunity for more money would also mean EA has not influenced them as much as we thought.

Yeah. This is the only alternative ending that has been proposed that I've seen massive and unanimous backing from the community that has seen it.

Not often you see people say they will throw their money gleefully at DLC that should have arguably been in the game to begin with.

[blooregard]

Omega Scythe wrote...

Even if all of this is just reaching and conjecture on our parts, and Bioware never had any such trolltasic plans, by creating this theory we have presented Bioware with an ENORMOUS opportunity.

Think about it. It's too good to pass up. A lot of us are even openly admitting that we'd be willing to pay for it. If Bioware doesn't immediately scrap whatever plans they have to gleefully jump into the growing pool of potential profits, there is a severe lack of business logic in that company.

On the plus side, ignoring the opportunity for more money would also mean EA has not influenced them as much as we thought.

maybe bioware is fighting EA indoctronation and their only way out is killing the franchise

[novaseeker]

CreepingGeth wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Also, something to further point out that it's dream/hallucination/whatever. The Reaperchild thing says, when asked what he is. He replies with "I control the Reapers" No, that doesn't say what you are. That's what you do.

Hasn't it been alluded to, or flat out stated, that Harbinger is the boss reaper? Harbinger controls the reapers. The godchild thing also controls the reapers. Shepard knows this and his mind is filling in that blank for him.

He also goes on to include himself as a Reaper. "Us".

Yeah.  It's Harbinger.  Harbinger is speaking there, not a God-Child or Architect.

[FemShep13]

If this is true then BW is brilliant and I will finally be satisfied with the conclusion of the series. It makes more sense as some hallucination then the actual ending to a game that has been so focused on giving the players choice.