57139 réponses à ce sujet

[LenabotSE]

Concerning the VI:

Kai Leng could be in the late (obvious) stage of indoctrination, while Shepard's still holding the mental line, so to speak. Shepard's never properly indoctrinated - just hears the whispers on the edges of his/her mind throughout the game. It's at the Crucible that Shepard decides to give into indoctrination or throw it off.

You didn't know Saren was indoctrinated until the late stages of ME1, as a comparison.

Modifié par LenabotSE, 12 mars 2012 - 03:14 .

[lookingglassmind]

Sl4sh3r wrote...

Real quick...

Those little tentacles that signify "Indoctrination" are only there when TIM is controlling Shep.

TIM makes you shoot Anderson. Once Shep convinces TIM to kill himself, or Shep kills TIM himself, they go away.


Just something to think about.

Making sure this post is augmented with a previous observation: the 'black oil' makes itself known during Shepard's dreams of the Catalyst, as well. All of the ghostly people he is running through resemble moving black oil/smoke.

[TamiBx]

ceruleancrescent wrote...

The kid ran into the room, and then it is completely blown up by the reapers? Even if he was hiding in that air vent, could he really survive that explosion unscathed with nothing burned or singed? Maybe the child died in that moment, and because Shepard had seen them earlier, the reapers used the resemblance of that kid. And, as someone said previously, especially since he uses the phrase "You can't save me." It seems so out of place, if the child is scared and has something offering to help him he might say "No!" or "I'm scared!", or turn and crawl away, or accept their help, not "YOU CAN'T SAVE ME." It's always felt off.

Actually when I think about it, wouldn't Anderson ask who/what Shepard was talking to or investigate if someone was really there? And in the end of the opening, when the kid looks directly at Shepard and then climbs into the shuttle, no one helping in him while everyone else is just standing there, waiting for the door to close, no one acknowledges him. So sure, maybe he does represent all the people on earth Shepard couldn't save, but couldn't that also mean that he is the perfect personification for the Reapers to use to their advantage?

Just my opinion though.

I always thought it was weird that no one helped the poor kid get on the shuttle. And no one else noticed him. Ever.
Actually, before the game came out and right after the demo was shown at E3, someone wrote an article (can't remember where...I wanna say IGN, but not sure) that we can't save the kid no matter what. Then they said that it is left open to the gamer's imagination if that kid was real or if it was all Shepard's imagination. 
Aaaaah! I want to find that article so bad right now. 

[LadyofRivendell]

 My gosh, you're bloody brilliant, and I hope BioWare reads this and considers this as their "way out" if it wasn't already in their plans. 

Something I've noticed that may or may not go to help the theory: Anderson's death scene is... lacking. Think of some of the other characters who have died up to this point: Ashley/Kaidan, Shepard (ME2), Thane, Legion, Grunt's "fake out", Mordin, all of their death scenes are very emotional. You have their final dialogue, which has hidden depths and meanings beyond face value, depressing music playing in the background, and their final moments are made to count so that their last breath is very emphasized. 
Was this the case with Anderson? Not for me. I "saved" him (as the Prima guide calls it) in choosing all Paragon dialogue with TIM and sat next to him in his dying moments, yet it was...somewhat a lack of emotion. No music, no final, deep dialogue, he just kinda slumped over and that was it. 
Anderson's death is more comparable to some of the "fake out"/"not supposed to die" deaths of the series, such as any of your squadmates during the Suicide Mission, Wrex on Virmire, Kasumi's fake death in ME3, etc. There's no reaction time, not much emotion, no music, no final lines, and Shepard's reaction is somewhat stoic. All of those apply to Anderson's death as well, making it seem like it was a fake or it wasn't actually "canon" (using the term loosely). His whole death reminds me a lot in tone and emotion of a scene in a different game (Uncharted 3) where the main character, unbeknownst to the player, hallucinates that his mentor and father figure dies. The events and feel are very similar, which is kind of where the basis of the idea sprung up.
The fact that his death was all a hallucination could also be why some very, very emotional dialogue between him in his dying moments and Shepard was cut.


TL;DR Anderson's death feels unreal because it's missing key moments that the other death scenes, up to this point in the series, have had.

Modifié par LadyofRivendell, 12 mars 2012 - 03:20 .

[eclipso621]

In his dreams he also hears all his dead friends. Just saying Idk if that has anything to do with it.

[aquaticidioticus]

byne wrote...

lol, yeah, didnt really expect this thread to explode like it has. Starting this thread at the same time as I started my Insanity run probably wasnt the best of ideas

That said, as long as people keep up with new ideas, and make sure to PM me any good new contributions to the thread, I'll update the first post with them.

And this is off-topic, but since I mentioned I'm doing my Insanity run: Screw Banshees. Seriously.

Brutes were the bane of my existence when I first started my Insanity playthrough (that I abruptly rage quitted about 10 hours in... I'll pick it up later).

Someone posted a while back (and I'm trying to find it myself, but having no luck.  Should've bookmarked it. D'oh!) a video of all the compiled inconsistencies - or a good number of them.  Does anyone know what page it is on or willing to relink it?

In the meantime - the search continues!

[honorableshadow]

MrAtomica wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

There were indeed, BIG plotholes, I just thought of another one:

1. If shepard's squadmates are alive and well (which they are according to the final scenes), then why don't they at least try to help their critically injured commander? I took Ashley and Garrus with me. There's no way they would abandon shepard in any situation, even if shepard died, they will still try to retrieve his body, or die trying.

2. How comes in the scene where Normandy crash-land on some planet, the two surviving squad-members just HAPPENED to be the two you picked with you for the final push? Where the hell did all the others go?

It's funny, because Javik just showed up on the final planet, despite the fact that I had taken Ashley and Liara.

Interesting. I had the "merge" ending, with Javik and Garrus in my party. Garrus was romanced and he was the one who stepped out.

[BlackDragonBane]

TamiBx wrote...

ceruleancrescent wrote...

The kid ran into the room, and then it is completely blown up by the reapers? Even if he was hiding in that air vent, could he really survive that explosion unscathed with nothing burned or singed? Maybe the child died in that moment, and because Shepard had seen them earlier, the reapers used the resemblance of that kid. And, as someone said previously, especially since he uses the phrase "You can't save me." It seems so out of place, if the child is scared and has something offering to help him he might say "No!" or "I'm scared!", or turn and crawl away, or accept their help, not "YOU CAN'T SAVE ME." It's always felt off.

Actually when I think about it, wouldn't Anderson ask who/what Shepard was talking to or investigate if someone was really there? And in the end of the opening, when the kid looks directly at Shepard and then climbs into the shuttle, no one helping in him while everyone else is just standing there, waiting for the door to close, no one acknowledges him. So sure, maybe he does represent all the people on earth Shepard couldn't save, but couldn't that also mean that he is the perfect personification for the Reapers to use to their advantage?

Just my opinion though.

I always thought it was weird that no one helped the poor kid get on the shuttle. And no one else noticed him. Ever.
Actually, before the game came out and right after the demo was shown at E3, someone wrote an article (can't remember where...I wanna say IGN, but not sure) that we can't save the kid no matter what. Then they said that it is left open to the gamer's imagination if that kid was real or if it was all Shepard's imagination. 
Aaaaah! I want to find that article so bad right now. 

At the VERY beginning, don't you see the kid's parents (or guardians) sitting nearby to where he is playing? I honestly can't recall because if that's the case... holy crap have I not been paying attention.

[Sl4sh3r]

lookingglassmind wrote...

Sl4sh3r wrote...

Real quick...

Those little tentacles that signify "Indoctrination" are only there when TIM is controlling Shep.

TIM makes you shoot Anderson. Once Shep convinces TIM to kill himself, or Shep kills TIM himself, they go away.


Just something to think about.

Making sure this post is augmented with a previous observation: the 'black oil' makes itself known during Shepard's dreams of the Catalyst, as well. All of the ghostly people he is running through resemble moving black oil/smoke.

Ah, good point.

Once again though... if "Indoctrination" is the true ending. They better be planning something huge to actually finish the story... and it better be free.

[byne]

aquaticidioticus wrote...

byne wrote...

lol, yeah, didnt really expect this thread to explode like it has. Starting this thread at the same time as I started my Insanity run probably wasnt the best of ideas

That said, as long as people keep up with new ideas, and make sure to PM me any good new contributions to the thread, I'll update the first post with them.

And this is off-topic, but since I mentioned I'm doing my Insanity run: Screw Banshees. Seriously.

Brutes were the bane of my existence when I first started my Insanity playthrough (that I abruptly rage quitted about 10 hours in... I'll pick it up later).

Someone posted a while back (and I'm trying to find it myself, but having no luck.  Should've bookmarked it. D'oh!) a video of all the compiled inconsistencies - or a good number of them.  Does anyone know what page it is on or willing to relink it?

In the meantime - the search continues!

Was it this one?

Modifié par byne, 12 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[N3vDawg]

LadyofRivendell wrote...

 My gosh, you're bloody brilliant, and I hope BioWare reads this and considers this as their "way out" if it wasn't already in their plans. 

Something I've noticed that may or may not go to help the theory: Anderson's death scene is... lacking. Think of some of the other characters who have died up to this point: Ashley/Kaidan, Shepard (ME2), Thane, Legion, Grunt's "fake out", Mordin, all of their death scenes are very emotional. You have their final dialogue, which has hidden depths and meanings beyond face value, depressing music playing in the background, and their final moments are made to count so that their last breath is very emphasized. 
Was this the case with Anderson? Not for me. I "saved" him (as the Prima guide calls it) in choosing all Paragon dialogue with TIM and sat next to him in his dying moments, yet it was...somewhat a lack of emotion. No music, no final, deep dialogue, he just kinda slumped over and that was it. 
Anderson's death is more comparable to some of the "fake out"/"not supposed to die" deaths of the series, such as any of your squadmates during the Suicide Mission, Wrex on Virmire, Kasumi's fake death in ME3, etc. There's no reaction time, not much emotion, no music, no final lines, and Shepard's reaction is somewhat stoic. All of those apply to Anderson's death as well, making it seem like it was a fake or it wasn't actually "canon" (using the term loosely). His whole death reminds me a lot in tone and emotion of a scene in a different game (Uncharted 3) where the main character, unbeknownst to the player, hallucinates that his mentor and father figure dies. The events and feel are very similar, which is kind of where the basis of the idea sprung up.
The fact that his death was all a hallucination could also be why some very, very emotional dialogue between him in his dying moments and Shepard was cut.


TL;DR Anderson's death feels unreal because it's missing key moments that the other death scenes, up to this point in the series, have had.

Would explain why they cut a lot of the original dialogue for this scene.

[ceruleancrescent]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

TamiBx wrote...

ceruleancrescent wrote...

The kid ran into the room, and then it is completely blown up by the reapers? Even if he was hiding in that air vent, could he really survive that explosion unscathed with nothing burned or singed? Maybe the child died in that moment, and because Shepard had seen them earlier, the reapers used the resemblance of that kid. And, as someone said previously, especially since he uses the phrase "You can't save me." It seems so out of place, if the child is scared and has something offering to help him he might say "No!" or "I'm scared!", or turn and crawl away, or accept their help, not "YOU CAN'T SAVE ME." It's always felt off.

Actually when I think about it, wouldn't Anderson ask who/what Shepard was talking to or investigate if someone was really there? And in the end of the opening, when the kid looks directly at Shepard and then climbs into the shuttle, no one helping in him while everyone else is just standing there, waiting for the door to close, no one acknowledges him. So sure, maybe he does represent all the people on earth Shepard couldn't save, but couldn't that also mean that he is the perfect personification for the Reapers to use to their advantage?

Just my opinion though.

I always thought it was weird that no one helped the poor kid get on the shuttle. And no one else noticed him. Ever.
Actually, before the game came out and right after the demo was shown at E3, someone wrote an article (can't remember where...I wanna say IGN, but not sure) that we can't save the kid no matter what. Then they said that it is left open to the gamer's imagination if that kid was real or if it was all Shepard's imagination. 
Aaaaah! I want to find that article so bad right now. 

At the VERY beginning, don't you see the kid's parents (or guardians) sitting nearby to where he is playing? I honestly can't recall because if that's the case... holy crap have I not been paying attention.

I'm not exactly sure, but what I recall he's playing by himself in the courtyard. Even if he is with his parents, it's plausable that they were killed in the first attack, maybe even protecting him? And he runs and hides like kids do into that building that is blown up by the reapers and he is possibly incinerated then....ugh that was morbid...

[TamiBx]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

At the VERY beginning, don't you see the kid's parents (or guardians) sitting nearby to where he is playing? I honestly can't recall because if that's the case... holy crap have I not been paying attention.

Go to 4:50...there is no one but the kid...

[Sl4sh3r]

Something else I thought of.

They've always wanted to make their games where anyone could just pick them up, play, and not e completely out of the loop.

The idea of this "indoctrination" ending is completely the opposite of that. I've been following the series since ME1 and you guys are bringing up things I completely forgot about..

[oh_saki]

Okay, I just re-watched the Cerberus Base assault mission where Shep recovers the VI and it says 'You are attempting to recover me from indoctrinated forces'. However, it's clear that Cerberus has gotten whatever info it wants from the VI already, which is why TIM lets Shepard keep the VI. That means that though the VI can detect indoctrinated forces, it doesn't shut itself off from indoctrinated forces, or maybe Cerberus just broke through its security somehow.

Alright, I'll bite. If Shepard has been indoc'd to some certain degree, even if its minimal, perhaps he's holding it all down mentally, which explains the nightmares. But if our theory is right and he does indeed 'break out of the indoctrination' at the end of ME3 where he takes a breath in the rubble of what appear to be Earth, then maybe he is mentally strong enough to hold off indoctrination for that long.

But what about the people that brought Tali and/or Garrus on the mission? They must have also been indoctrinated to some degree. Even if they were as mentally strong as Shepard, which is stretching it, would they also be able to break out of the indoctrination like Shepard appears to have, or would the theoretical DLC have you shoot and kill a recently indoctrinated Garrus/Tali?

[JasonTan87]

LadyofRivendell wrote...

TL;DR Anderson's death feels unreal because it's missing key moments that the other death scenes, up to this point in the series, have had.

The uncut one was so much better.

http://vulpesetuva.t...nough-one-thing 

Just in case noone else posted.

[aquaticidioticus]

byne wrote...

Was it this one?

What one?  The link isn't working?  But thanks!! 

Edit: Whoop.  Ninja'd.  And yes, it was totally that one.  Thanks so much. 

Modifié par aquaticidioticus, 12 mars 2012 - 03:24 .

[dragonage200200]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

TamiBx wrote...

ceruleancrescent wrote...

The kid ran into the room, and then it is completely blown up by the reapers? Even if he was hiding in that air vent, could he really survive that explosion unscathed with nothing burned or singed? Maybe the child died in that moment, and because Shepard had seen them earlier, the reapers used the resemblance of that kid. And, as someone said previously, especially since he uses the phrase "You can't save me." It seems so out of place, if the child is scared and has something offering to help him he might say "No!" or "I'm scared!", or turn and crawl away, or accept their help, not "YOU CAN'T SAVE ME." It's always felt off.

Actually when I think about it, wouldn't Anderson ask who/what Shepard was talking to or investigate if someone was really there? And in the end of the opening, when the kid looks directly at Shepard and then climbs into the shuttle, no one helping in him while everyone else is just standing there, waiting for the door to close, no one acknowledges him. So sure, maybe he does represent all the people on earth Shepard couldn't save, but couldn't that also mean that he is the perfect personification for the Reapers to use to their advantage?

Just my opinion though.

I always thought it was weird that no one helped the poor kid get on the shuttle. And no one else noticed him. Ever.
Actually, before the game came out and right after the demo was shown at E3, someone wrote an article (can't remember where...I wanna say IGN, but not sure) that we can't save the kid no matter what. Then they said that it is left open to the gamer's imagination if that kid was real or if it was all Shepard's imagination. 
Aaaaah! I want to find that article so bad right now. 

At the VERY beginning, don't you see the kid's parents (or guardians) sitting nearby to where he is playing? I honestly can't recall because if that's the case... holy crap have I not been paying attention.

No. It shows the kid playing with his Alliance ship and Sheprad is watching him. The kid is in a patch of grass my himself.

[bozonbob]

It has been 24 hours since I suffered through the endings of ME3 and I think I am still upset.  I love this theory and hope that it is right.  I would be ecstatic if this was some elaborate April Fools joke.  Having said that I also work in the corporate world and I can not see BW or EA doing anything like this if for no other reason than fear of lawsuit.  What if someone went out and got plastered after the "ending" and hurt themselves or someone else?  I do believe that this thread has created an opportunity for BW to provide a DLC ending since the explanation/tie in has been written for them by this thread.  The key now is to apply the only leverage we have.  Since we already bought the game that revenue is already in their control. However we do not have to buy any DLCs until they fix this.  The biggest lever is probably SWTOR.  Cancel your account (as I just did) and let them know the reason is the ME3 ending and you will not come back until they fix it.

Modifié par bozonbob, 12 mars 2012 - 03:25 .

[SandTrout]

byne wrote...

I dont really get this line of thinking.

If they instead decided to do the proper ending as an entirely new game, people would just be like 'Oh, ME3 was a cliffhanger, I'll have to buy ME4 to see what happens!", but if they decide to do it as DLC instead of a new game people get mad?

The problem is that we were told that ME3 would be the conclusion that would tie up loose ends, give closure, and provide a broad array of endings that took your past decisions into account.

It did none of these things. I feel like they cheated me out of something that was supposed to be agreed that I receive in the trade. The ending might as well been an episode of My Little Pony for all the relevance it had to the rest of the game.

No closure. All past decisions rendered irrelevant as I'm funneled into 3 color choices of the same gainax ending.

If there was some flaw that prevented grenades from being used, you would not offer to pay them to fix it, because you bought the game under the reasonable expectation that you would be able to use grenades. It's not a matter of weather or not grenades suck or your playstyle supports using them. It was part of the deal.

I am not willing to pay for them to fix the ending because I bought the game with a reaonsable expectation that I would get an ending that was actually relevant to the game, as promised. Even if the ending still wasn't great and to my liking, the ending we got is not what we agreed to purchase.

[Lugaidster]

I'm going to say this, even if some or most won't agree. I'm starting to see that if they don't continue the end or extend it, but confirm that it was really an indoctrination attempt. I wouldn't be as mad as I was initially. Even if they don't complete it, it's a much better ending than a non-hallucination one. Whatever happens later, you know that Shepard will continue fighting. This type of ending isn't unusual in movies, and it's not as bad as what we originally though.

However, if the final scenes did happen and weren't Shepard's imagination, this **** has to go down!

[eclipso621]

I pray you guys are correct and maybe there is just special stuff hidden till its released everywhere but honestly I'm still afraid they just really dropped the ball on the ending.. Also just for the he'll of it, why do the slow time when your being shot at during the final push... I swear I think we were supposed to be able to dodge it.

[lookingglassmind]

Lugaidster wrote...

I'm going to say this, even if some or most won't agree. I'm starting to see that if they don't continue the end or extend it, but confirm that it was really an indoctrination attempt. I wouldn't be as mad as I was initially. Even if they don't complete it, it's a much better ending than a non-hallucination one. Whatever happens later, you know that Shepard will continue fighting. This type of ending isn't unusual in movies, and it's not as bad as what we originally though.

However, if the final scenes did happen and weren't Shepard's imagination, this **** has to go down!

I agree with this. I just hope BioWare states something. Anything.

[Lparsons7641]

byne wrote...

aquaticidioticus wrote...

byne wrote...

lol, yeah, didnt really expect this thread to explode like it has. Starting this thread at the same time as I started my Insanity run probably wasnt the best of ideas

That said, as long as people keep up with new ideas, and make sure to PM me any good new contributions to the thread, I'll update the first post with them.

And this is off-topic, but since I mentioned I'm doing my Insanity run: Screw Banshees. Seriously.

Brutes were the bane of my existence when I first started my Insanity playthrough (that I abruptly rage quitted about 10 hours in... I'll pick it up later).

Someone posted a while back (and I'm trying to find it myself, but having no luck.  Should've bookmarked it. D'oh!) a video of all the compiled inconsistencies - or a good number of them.  Does anyone know what page it is on or willing to relink it?

In the meantime - the search continues!

Was it this one?

Stop that video at 1:20 and look up the ramp.

Ghostly human shaped shadows?

[PrinceOfFallout13]

also this theory seems more valid since shepard is seen alive in the rubble

i mean if he was really at the citadel i doubt he would be alive or in pieces