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[BlackDragonBane]

TamiBx wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

At the VERY beginning, don't you see the kid's parents (or guardians) sitting nearby to where he is playing? I honestly can't recall because if that's the case... holy crap have I not been paying attention.

Go to 4:50...there is no one but the kid...

Well... that just blows a massive hole in the idea that the kid existed in the first place. If Shepard was hallucinating the young boy this entire time, for what purpose then? Sure it provided a great opportunity for Harbinger to try to screw Shepard in the end, but before that... I don't quite get what meaning it would hold for Shepard personally.

[Lparsons7641]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

also this theory seems more valid since shepard is seen alive in the rubble

i mean if he was really at the citadel i doubt he would be alive or in pieces

Not unless he found a way to survive re-entry and a massive explosion.


And land in London

[noobcannon]

Evil Minion wrote...

If it turns out it was all a dream.....

I will be beyond ticked-off. They should either deal with the endings they have, or create an alternate ending, but not invalidate the entire thing.

The "it was a dream" convention is horrible writing. Go read about the backlash that occured after the tv show "St. Elsewhere," or the conclusion to the "Who Shot J.R.?" storyline from "Dallas."

Awful idea.

it's not so much dreaming as it is the actual process of indoctrination, which is a huge part of the mass effect trilogy lore. i think it's absolutely brilliant, as long as they don't try and charge us for it. i'm still up in the air about that.

[LenabotSE]

A bit from the CE art book, though it's not much:

They were originally going to have a Saren-esque fight with the Illusive Man, but decided to scrap it, as his intelligence was always his defining characteristic. I don't know how you have a final "fight" with just intelligence. Unless the players are meant to stop, think, and recognize the signs of indoctrination, perhaps?

Anderson and the Illusive Man on the Crucible are basically the angel and devil sitting on Shepard's shoulders. Shepard's subconscious is torn between two view points, and those views are manifested in the forms of Shepard's two conflicting "leaders."

The Illusive Man is what the Reapers want, so his option is painted in paragon blue and made to look noble. Shepard shouldn't just up and say "So the Illusive Man was right after all." It seemed almost out of context, ignoring whatever happened in your confrontation. Anderson is not what the Reapers want, so he must be defeated and made to suffer.

The Control ending just seems like a trap.  Not in the sense that you might control them, but in the sense that you're just grabbing onto a death machine.  Like the kid's going to snap back and say "AHA GOTCHA.  You fell for the trap!  Dumb little ape man!"

Modifié par LenabotSE, 12 mars 2012 - 03:36 .

[squee365]

'm starting to like the idea of the 'hallucination' theory. Like bioware is taking a page from valve maybe? (God I hope) and viralizing the ending into everyone thinking its a real ending just like SHEPARD DOES. Then suddenly out of nowhere we're going to get a prompt to download something when starting up the game again and people will wonder whats going on...The endings will remain the same, UNTIL the very end where shepard will be awoken by anderson and his/her LI, thus commence the true ending.

Mighty hopefulness there, but I've got nothing to lose at this point.

[Turtlicious]

^ this

[dragonage200200]

For reference, if its not to much trouble, why doesn't somone post a picture of the Shepard alive ending where he is coming to. That way we can get a sense of his background and his surroundings and it should help us determine more.

[CreepingGeth]

Yeah, we're not discussing dreaming here. We're talking about a battle of wits inside Shepard's mind between he and Harbinger.

[blooregard]

LadyofRivendell wrote...

 My gosh, you're bloody brilliant, and I hope BioWare reads this and considers this as their "way out" if it wasn't already in their plans. 

Something I've noticed that may or may not go to help the theory: Anderson's death scene is... lacking. Think of some of the other characters who have died up to this point: Ashley/Kaidan, Shepard (ME2), Thane, Legion, Grunt's "fake out", Mordin, all of their death scenes are very emotional. You have their final dialogue, which has hidden depths and meanings beyond face value, depressing music playing in the background, and their final moments are made to count so that their last breath is very emphasized. 
Was this the case with Anderson? Not for me. I "saved" him (as the Prima guide calls it) in choosing all Paragon dialogue with TIM and sat next to him in his dying moments, yet it was...somewhat a lack of emotion. No music, no final, deep dialogue, he just kinda slumped over and that was it. 
Anderson's death is more comparable to some of the "fake out"/"not supposed to die" deaths of the series, such as any of your squadmates during the Suicide Mission, Wrex on Virmire, Kasumi's fake death in ME3, etc. There's no reaction time, not much emotion, no music, no final lines, and Shepard's reaction is somewhat stoic. All of those apply to Anderson's death as well, making it seem like it was a fake or it wasn't actually "canon" (using the term loosely). His whole death reminds me a lot in tone and emotion of a scene in a different game (Uncharted 3) where the main character, unbeknownst to the player, hallucinates that his mentor and father figure dies. The events and feel are very similar, which is kind of where the basis of the idea sprung up.
The fact that his death was all a hallucination could also be why some very, very emotional dialogue between him in his dying moments and Shepard was cut.


TL;DR Anderson's death feels unreal because it's missing key moments that the other death scenes, up to this point in the series, have had.

I think its default (and IMO bioware canon) that default casulties are wrex, kaiden, kasumi, zaeed, miranda, jacob, thane, samara, grunt (pretty much everyone that doesn't have a direct major role in ME3's plot like garrus or mordin) and most of those casulties don't have a sad moment except for kaiden 


I also like the idea mentioned that shepard has been indoctronated for a while (at least since the reaper IFF mission) I imagine the only reason no other characters are indoctronated are either bioware can't possibly track who you took on that mission or because shepard had the most indoctronation exposure ( derelict reaper, arrival, talking to a reaper, fighting a "baby" reaper, talking to a reaper ect. I did start wondering after the reaper IFF mission why shepard or nobody has had any symptoms of indoctronaiton maybe the reapers realize the value of shepard and thought they'd play their card when they knew reaper victory or defeat were balancing entirely on what shepard chose

[lookingglassmind]

squee365 wrote...

'm starting to like the idea of the 'hallucination' theory. Like bioware is taking a page from valve maybe? (God I hope) and viralizing the ending into everyone thinking its a real ending just like SHEPARD DOES.

BioWare indoctrinating the player.

[Lambchopz]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

also this theory seems more valid since shepard is seen alive in the rubble

i mean if he was really at the citadel i doubt he would be alive or in pieces

Obviously this realization is the lynchpin of this whole theory. Without this scene this theory probably wouldn't exist.

Also really important to remember, on top of surviving the the citadel explosion and landing perfectly in what looks like London, Shepard has his armor on. It's hard to make it out, but Shepard is definitely wearing armor in that short snippet.

So not only did Shep survive the explosion, but magically came out of it fully armored, after entering the Citadel presumably with her armor blown off or something like that.

The evidence and support for this theory is solid, just a matter of where BioWare takes it.

[DAZExOFxDEATH]

There's so much to read so I haven't really checked, but has anyone considered the idea that the elevator that carries Shepard up to the catalyst may actually symbolize Shepard's death and him/her ascending to heaven or the afterlife?

Also, I keep waiting to see if it turns out that theres a special way to unlock the true ending :'( Maybe like standing around infront of the three choices for a while...I don't know, one could only hope..

[Eareshel]

 Now that you mentioned it, I do remember the ending feeling very "off" after being hit by the lazer. It didn't make sense, and it confused the crap out of me... Here's to hoping we've been indoctrinated! (even though I destroyed all synthetic life.) I thought to myself that all of this - since the very beginning - has been about destroying the reapers, and if I deviated from the path that I set out upon because of a creepy ghost kid, something I absolutely wouldn't want would have happened. I miss Tali, though. 

[TamiBx]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

TamiBx wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

At the VERY beginning, don't you see the kid's parents (or guardians) sitting nearby to where he is playing? I honestly can't recall because if that's the case... holy crap have I not been paying attention.

Go to 4:50...there is no one but the kid...

Well... that just blows a massive hole in the idea that the kid existed in the first place. If Shepard was hallucinating the young boy this entire time, for what purpose then? Sure it provided a great opportunity for Harbinger to try to screw Shepard in the end, but before that... I don't quite get what meaning it would hold for Shepard personally.

Shepard was already in the process of being indoctrinated? I can't see another reason. This kid can definitely not be real, because there is no one, not even one single character in this game who aknowledges the kid. I mean, wouldn't they help a kid get on the shuttle? They helped everyone else...

[Sheparded]

So the currently theory is that the kid vi is actually harbinger, wouldn't that mean that harbinger is the crucible?

[noobcannon]

the people who keep trying to debunk this theory, aren't giving any kind of counter-argument to why shepard is alive under the rubble. that giant explosion he creates, in space, and then we see him take a breath under the rubble? alive? how can anyone possibly explain that, besides him having on been on earth the whole time?

[WvStolzing]

Lparsons7641 wrote...

Stop that video at 1:20 and look up the ramp.

Ghostly human shaped shadows?

They look like regular shadows...

[FugitiveMind]

Lambchopz wrote...

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

also this theory seems more valid since shepard is seen alive in the rubble

i mean if he was really at the citadel i doubt he would be alive or in pieces

Obviously this realization is the lynchpin of this whole theory. Without this scene this theory probably wouldn't exist.

Also really important to remember, on top of surviving the the citadel explosion and landing perfectly in what looks like London, Shepard has his armor on. It's hard to make it out, but Shepard is definitely wearing armor in that short snippet.

So not only did Shep survive the explosion, but magically came out of it fully armored, after entering the Citadel presumably with her armor blown off or something like that.

The evidence and support for this theory is solid, just a matter of where BioWare takes it.

I wholeheartedly agree considering the other option is
1) he swan dove from space (yeah, the beginning of ME2 shows what happens when you do that)
2) Got dressed on the way down and
3) even if by space magic he didn't repeat the ME2 performance and survived, managed to have the perfect tragectory to have him land EXACTLY where he left from

There's a reason I've been drinking this hallucination/indoctrination/dream sequence/conspiracy theory koolaid since page 2...

Modifié par FugitiveMind, 12 mars 2012 - 03:37 .

[BlackDragonBane]

Lambchopz wrote...

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

also this theory seems more valid since shepard is seen alive in the rubble

i mean if he was really at the citadel i doubt he would be alive or in pieces

Obviously this realization is the lynchpin of this whole theory. Without this scene this theory probably wouldn't exist.

Also really important to remember, on top of surviving the the citadel explosion and landing perfectly in what looks like London, Shepard has his armor on. It's hard to make it out, but Shepard is definitely wearing armor in that short snippet.

So not only did Shep survive the explosion, but magically came out of it fully armored, after entering the Citadel presumably with her armor blown off or something like that.

The evidence and support for this theory is solid, just a matter of where BioWare takes it.

Actually, the armor seen in the Destruction ending, if Shepard lives, is exactly what he/she was wearing after Harbinger's attack. I'd show pictures but I'm currently not at home with access to them.

[Johnnatan]

Maybe he is prone to be indoctrined (when compared with Tali or garrus) due to his implants.

[John Never Dies]

Sheparded wrote...

So the currently theory is that the kid vi is actually harbinger, wouldn't that mean that harbinger is the crucible?

Not really, if Harbringer is making it all up.

[Fledgey]

Sheparded wrote...

So the currently theory is that the kid vi is actually harbinger, wouldn't that mean that harbinger is the crucible?

Everything after getting hit by the laser is not real. So no.

[Mr. Mistake]

And now that basically EVERYTHING that can be covered has been covered, I can finally reply. It only took 24 hours.

I have to say that this hallucination/indoctrination theory is really cool, and well done to all you guys, but I have a suggestion to make:

Try reloading a save or something and do the part right before the beam again, until the "end" of the game.

Tell me if you think everything really culminates so much that there's simply no room for some kind of post-game DLC.

I'm trying to see it, but I honestly can't. How do you guys think the DLC will be integrated into what we have now?

[UlricKerensky]

One thing I'd like to point out about the indoctrination theory is that, despite making a certain amount of sense, and being all hopeful...we're still short a real ending. Quite frankly, I'm not sure why readiness and war assets determine if you survive an indoctrination attempt . That aside, fair is fair. A lot of the points in the video and threat make sense.

[Bigdoser]

Shepard should not have a body in the survive ending the fact that shepard still has a body lends to the idea that shepard is still on earth and harbinger has been trying to indoctrinate shepard.