57139 réponses à ce sujet

[MrAtomica]

Reposting this here, just because it wasn't really fitting in the other mega thread. Sorry for the wall of text, it's something I'm almost always guilty of.

Anyone struck by how eerily similar this situation is to KOTOR 2? The ending of that game was almost entirely unexplained in the vanilla version. It was only until dedicated fans set to work rebuilding what had been cut because of time constraints that the game became complete.

So the moral of the story seems to be, give devs more time. I seriously doubt that the whole Catalyst scene nonsense was something planned to be there from the beginning. If it was, it probably wasn't as abrupt as it is now. I mean, let's look at the facts as we know them, from getting lased by Harbinger to the very end:

- The screen fades to white (same as the dream sequences). You can hear people yelling in the background, yet Shepard hears no more from them after that.

-Shepard is not wearing the Blood Dragon armor that I had him equipped with throughout the invasion of Earth. He is also miraculously equipped with a Carnifex that never chews through its extremely limited thermal clip.

- After traveling through the energy column, Shepard is suddenly left standing in a totally random part of the Citadel, surrounded by piles of dead human bodies. Huh? Why the hell would the Reapers wholesale slaughter so many humans without harvesting a single one? Where are all the aliens?

- Anderson is suddenly aware of what the Collector Base looked like, despite never having seen the base, nor having any ability to have seen it (no one on Shepard's team takes photo or video of it). Again, the piles of bodies makes no sense in this regard, either.

- The Citadel looks vaguely like the Shadow Broker's ship, with the moving lightning panels. Granted, the design is slightly off, but not enough so as to prove it's different.

- Anderson says that he followed Shepard, yet there seems to be only one path leading up the control station. If he were warped in ahead of Shepard, then how would he have seen the bodies? He doesn't mention seeing any, yet he does say that it looks like the Collector Base. The only other telling sign therein is the biological appearance of the base, which the Citadel clearly does not share.

- Assuming that Anderson was teleported in as well, then why is the Reaper Beam not set to send each incoming victim to a stationary point? If the delivery is random, wouldn't that pose the risk of someone finding the Catalyst area, or getting to the control panel?

- Where did TIM come from? What in the world was he doing standing in the control room? Where was he standing in the control room? I certainly didn't see him.

- There are noticeable black bars around the edges of the screen. The picture is fuzzy, and there is a definite ghostly whispering in the background. This is consistent with the dream sequences.

- What is TIM doing when he tries to control Anderson and Shepard? He looks like he's sending some kind of black energy toward them, yet this energy is never explained. His control mechanism is based on indoctrinated agents, so if Shepard is not so, then how can TIM control him? Same goes for Anderson.

- Are not Anderson and Shepard standing in open space in the control center? When Shepard ascends on the elevator, he is clearly standing in open space. No one could survive in the vacuum of space, if you recall Shepard's death in ME2.

- How is it that the Catalyst is even speaking to Shepard at all? Where is its control console? If it is corporeal somehow, where did it come from? How is it able to take the form of a child that Shepard has been obsessing over? If it is merely a program, it could not have known of the child's connection to Shepard. If it is more than a program (a Reaper), then it clearly is not telling the truth.

- Of the three choices presented, only one is an actual free action. Synthesis and Control are presented as being intrinsically more viable than Destroy. Yet, destroy is the only choice that truly defies the Reapers. The other two are a placation of the enemy.

- The Normandy is mysteriously absent from the fight on Earth. Why did it leave Sword behind? How did the squadmates I took with me in the final battle get back to the Normandy?

The whole thing just reeks of fish, to me. If anything, I'd bet that the team ran out of time to pull all the loose ends together the way they wanted, and decided to present the endings in a way that they could be revised later.

To that end, I stand with the people saying that these endings are a fight against indoctrination, or a simple blackout nightmare. The clip showing Shepard breathing fits in very well with the aftermath of Harbinger's attack, and totally refutes the idea that Shepard was actually on the Citadel. If he was, how in the world did he survive in an open vaccum after being caught in an explosion, traveling at what must have been terminal velocity upon Earth entry? Impossible. Unless of course that clip was more of a bone to the people like me, a "Make your own ending up" type of thing. That would be equal parts insulting and perplexing.

[JasonTan87]

The hallucination theory is completely plausible, although I feel that it is unlikely.

The one rule of such major plot twists is that there has to be a clear narrative prepping throughout the game. You've to look for something that is completely inexplicable; something that can only be explained with the hallucination. I do not feel the foreshadowing cited as examples throughout this thread are convincing enough -- simply because I can refute every most of them easily with a conventional knowledge.

The youtube video does not help your cause; it is beyond nitpicking. For example; You do not see your UI because your UI is linked to Shep's suit (you don't see your UI when Shep's in his casual gear). Shep's suit was destroyed when he took the reaper laser. Your screen looks blurry at the edges because Shep just took a direct laser hit to the face. The reason why Illusive man looks like saren is because he chose to implant reaper tech into himself (explained via video log in the Cerebus assault); he was basically being huskified.

Don't get me wrong -- I want to believe that this is it, that Bioware is about pull the world's greatest video game stunt. But after viewing the 'evidence' again for myself, I can't help but doubt.

The other matter is this: if it is really a hallucination, and Bioware intended it to be like that; it feels tacked on at the last minute, not something that was planned from the beginning.

[WvStolzing]

noobcannon wrote...

i have a working theory on why they take you so far back. there seems to be alot of dialouge that got cut during the fight on earth and people have been upset about it. my guess is alot of it may have been cut in order to avoid giving away the indoctrination theory.

Or, all that dialogue, and the scenes that went with it, simply got cut, for whatever reason; and all we get is this drug-induced nightmare-like mess.

I really want this hallucination theory to prove right; and it certainly is very plausible. But the more we talk about it, and the more convinced we are as to its plausibility, the more we become susceptible to the fallacy of inferring 'what really did happen', from 'what really should have happened'.

[Viquey]

kylecouch wrote...

Also...what reason does Shepard have to even DO Control or Synthisis? does anyones Shepard have any reason to even consider these possabilities given the context of how their presented to us? Given all that Shepard has seen and some half ass Troll Logic given to us by a clearly biased and moronic super-computer? I mean...does anyone -actually- see eaither Control or Synthisis as a better choice? Considering everything we've seen the Reapers do to us?  

Well, of my two sheps who chose/will choose synthesis, the first did so to spite the Reapers, and because she didn't want to take the chance that the cycle could start over. (Admittedly, her reasoning was flawed. But she didn't trust the Control option, and Destroy seemed a bit too risky, should it destroy all technology, from reapers and geth and EDI to ships and mass relays and omnitools...) She kinda buys that synthesis like that is the pinacle of evolution, and has no qualms about taking it via space magic rather than waiting to achieve it naturally.

The second is easier--Control just seemed power-hungry and dangerous, and Destroy would destroy the Geth. My headcanon for this Shep is she kind of utterly fell for Legion. At some point she promised him that the Geth would get their chance at a future. She sacrificed herself to uphold that promise.

Anyway. Anyone ever get a picture of the bushes and trees after just waking up? Y'know, that look like the ones from the dreams. When I played the ending I made a point of looking out for 'em, but forgot to snap some screenshots. xD Frankly those are the biggest indicator for me, especially the trees behind her when she first gets up.

[Outlaw704]

SomeBug wrote...

littleork wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

tuzem2 wrote...

I took the liberty to tweet it @masseffect
and we got noticed there
https://twitter.com/...880979274960897

Oddly, that response does not inspire confidence in me. It seems like they were surprised by the idea, which would mean that they hadn't thought of it yet.

Granted, it might just be a response from someone in marketing ignorant of what the dev-team is planning, but still.

Well even if they knew that the current ending wasn't the true one, do you think they would share it with us. I mean they'll probably get fired because of sharing info that is intentionally being kept a secret :=)

I like to think it's them being non-committal. Being impressed with our dedication to figuring the endings out, and that's all.

But, I do agree. As a general thing, this doesn't bode terribly well. At the very least, it's no confirmation of any kind.

Confirming it would be bad, they need to play the amazed/surprised, otherwise the surprise isnt there anymore since we would get confirmation that we are right.

They're having emergency meetings at BioWare and at EA.

They're calling in people from their weekend over this.

The companies that produced this game have hundreds of employees. The QA companies that would have tested any ending that you think they have up their sleeve rotate in hundreds more people to test the game.

Microsoft and Sony both have certification teams of equal size that have to certify any content for distribution on their online services.

The list of people who would know about a hidden 'it was all a hallucination' ending is so large and so widespread that there is ZERO chance this is going to occur without a significant leak. The entire game was leaked, for christ's sake, and you think they managed to keep this under wraps.


IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. STOP PUTTING YOUR HOPES INTO THIS IDEA. THERE IS ZERO CHANCE OF IT BEING TRUE.

It seems that you are indoctrinated

[lavosslayer]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

JELLAQTP wrote...

I just remembered that in the crucible Shepard tolds TIM that one thing is to control a Reaper and another is to control him.

You know... I've heard that line twice and didn't think anything of it until seeing it now and the whole context of this theorycrafting thread.

Was Shepard actually aware that Harbinger was attempting to indoctrinate him/her, albeit, on a very subconcious level?

Paul Greyson was aware...so yeah Shepard probably is too, to an extent...

[Golferguy758]

prizm123 wrote...

i dont think the green ending has anything to do with indoctrination
i actually think the green ending might be the canon ending the more i think about it....EDI's visor changes color and she smiles, so the synthesis did what it said it would do, made her, and the Geth part organic....it would appear that it is actually the "happy" ending that was intended...

there is a reason that green was chosen as the color for that ending, it is also associated with life

Green can also be assorted with a poison. Don't associate a color to a specific idea.

[Bigdoser]

CrasVox wrote...

I was wondering if that it is a dream, and that the only way there is a glimmer that he gets up from it and continues to fight, is the renegade (red) choice at the end. I would think, why not the blue one?


Then:
One thing that really hit me in my first playthrough, was how the paragon choices for Shepard leading up to the final assault to the Conduit II, was how he seems to be giving up. He is scared, he doesnt think he will survive. My play was as a paragon Shpeard, so I picked these, and was almost disappointed in him for these responses.

Shepard must rise above this. He must dig deep, and do what ever it takes, renegade to beat the Reapers. That is why the red path at the end it what breaks the hold on him in his coma state, and he gets up to finish the job.

renegade shep is pretty much the opposite majority of the time ren shep lines is more along of the lines of WE WILL DO THIS or WE WILL WIN lets not forget I am going to send the reapers straight to hell!

[N3vDawg]

krystalevenstar wrote...

Hey, whoa. Just noticed something major here in my Art of Mass Effect universe book I got today. Under the Illusive Man's page it reads, "One of the plans on the drawing board was to have the Illusive Man turn into a Reaper creature for the final battle. Eventually, this plan was scrapped, since we wanted to give players the satisfaction of fighting a character they know rather than a random creature."

We don't have a final battle now, and Kai Leng isn't really a 'character we know'... so what are they referencing?

I also just checked and it says this in the art book that came with the CE too

I don't know what to think of this, but this shouldn't be ignored.

[Lambchopz]

Kings19 wrote...

Something I think supports the idea they are holding something back - Bioware has been incredibly good in ME3 about giving fans what they want, and I have to think they have a pretty good idea of what fans expect. They added more RPG elements, deeper interactions with squadmates, actual impact from past decisions (Genophage, Geth, and more), less tedious planet scanning, etc. It just seems implausible to me that they would add all that and acknowledge the general mindset of fans, and yet still believe the current endings are satisfactory to most fans.

As well as the countless nods to Mass Effect memes that comes hand in hand with the ME community these days.

(Garrus Calibrations, for example)

They definitely know their community, they definitely tried to listen to the feedback heading in. The current ending is the only real exception to that rule at the moment.

[LenabotSE]

About Synthesis:

By merging organic life with synthetics, you've created a species hierarchy with the Reapers at the very top of the food chain - they're the most advanced form of this post-organic life. There's no promise or indication that they'll back down simply because you've merged life forms unless you fully believe what the AI is telling you.

In effect, you've made every living thing in the galaxy very easily hackable in the event that the AI is just Harbinger screwing with you.

Modifié par LenabotSE, 12 mars 2012 - 03:58 .

[noobcannon]

oh_saki wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...

Holy wow! This thread is still going. Anyways I had a couple things to add. Decided to play some MP today to get my readiness to 80%, and my EMS to 5100. Restarted just after horizon so I could get the Shepard lives ending, but also changed out one of the members of my squad to see what would happen when Normandy crashes.

1. The Squad members you take with you in the final push to the beam don't seem to have any bearing on the sequence when Normandy crashes. On my initial play through I had James and Liara with me. On my replay I swapped Liara for Jalik. On both runs, Joker, Liara, and James step off the Normandy.

I think we figured this out this morning. Who is on the Normandy after the Destroy ending is determined by:

1. Who your LI is (always steps out second)

2. Then who you have interacted with the most (always steps out third).

Can't be true. My LI was Ashley, but on my first playthrough (Synthesis) EDI stepped out 2nd after Joker, and James was 3rd and I definitely didn't interact with him all that much. 

EDIT Ah, Didn't see the 'after the Destroy' ending part, my bad. After I chose destroy, Ashley was in fact the 2nd to come out, but I don't remember who was 3rd.

can anyone else debunk this? i'm focusing on the using the same people for as many missions as possible and will check when i finishbut i have a ways to go yet.

Modifié par noobcannon, 12 mars 2012 - 03:58 .

[asilarae]

Sl4sh3r wrote...

Something else I thought of.

They've always wanted to make their games where anyone could just pick them up, play, and not e completely out of the loop.

The idea of this "indoctrination" ending is completely the opposite of that. I've been following the series since ME1 and you guys are bringing up things I completely forgot about..

I've been following this thread since the beginning because it makes me feel a little better, and I have to admit--you popping up every three pages to attempt to disprove this theory amuses me far more than it ought. 

[blooregard]

Auresta wrote...

prizm123 wrote...

i dont think the green ending has anything to do with indoctrination
i actually think the green ending might be the canon ending the more i think about it....EDI's visor changes color and she smiles, so the synthesis did what it said it would do, made her, and the Geth part organic....it would appear that it is actually the "happy" ending that was intended...

there is a reason that green was chosen as the color for that ending, it is also associated with life

I can't help but feel we were playing God. We decide synthesis for ALL organics and synthetics? We've espoused free-will and self determination until now and we throw it all away?

the green ending doesn't make much sense in this thread if control is giving into the indoctronation and red is fighting it which one is the green ending? shepard not being able to fight it enough to beat it and killing himself?

[Traestus]

I just want to note also before the game came out in a preview, I can't remember where but it was announced that

Indoctrination seems to play a role in ME3, possibly including party members

[Evindell]

For those thinking indoctrination (and the timeline that goes along with it), I would like to draw attention to the ANN report on Rana Thanoptis. She apparantly goes crazy and kills top level asari, after complaining about hearing voices. Obviously, she's been indoctrinated since ME 1, yet didn't break until ME 3.

Of course you have to let her live. My paragon (canon) Shepard did. I can't remember the exact message, but I was surprised when I read it. It's mentioned on the Mass Effect wiki: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Rana_Thanoptis

[netarchy]

UlricKerensky wrote...

One thing I'd like to point out about the indoctrination theory is that, despite making a certain amount of sense, and being all hopeful...we're still short a real ending. Quite frankly, I'm not sure why readiness and war assets determine if you survive an indoctrination attempt . That aside, fair is fair. A lot of the points in the video and threat make sense.

One explanation is that a higher galactic readiness gives Shepard enough time to resist the indoctrination attempt.

[Bigdoser]

I personally think legion would want you to pick the destory ending remember the conversation with him when you destroy the collector base? legion said in me2 if you blow the base you where offered true understanding and unity by the old the machines and you rejected it you are more like the geth than we thought. So destroy ending for me always.

[Auresta]

Traestus wrote...

I just want to note also before the game came out in a preview, I can't remember where but it was announced that

Indoctrination seems to play a role in ME3, possibly including party members

interesting..

[WvStolzing]

JasonTan87 wrote...

The hallucination theory is completely plausible, although I feel that it is unlikely.

The one rule of such major plot twists is that there has to be a clear narrative prepping throughout the game. You've to look for something that is completely inexplicable; something that can only be explained with the hallucination. I do not feel the foreshadowing cited as examples throughout this thread are convincing enough -- simply because I can refute every most of them easily with a conventional knowledge.

The youtube video does not help your cause; it is beyond nitpicking. For example; You do not see your UI because your UI is linked to Shep's suit (you don't see your UI when Shep's in his casual gear). Shep's suit was destroyed when he took the reaper laser. Your screen looks blurry at the edges because Shep just took a direct laser hit to the face. The reason why Illusive man looks like saren is because he chose to implant reaper tech into himself (explained via video log in the Cerebus assault); he was basically being huskified.

Don't get me wrong -- I want to believe that this is it, that Bioware is about pull the world's greatest video game stunt. But after viewing the 'evidence' again for myself, I can't help but doubt.

The other matter is this: if it is really a hallucination, and Bioware intended it to be like that; it feels tacked on at the last minute, not something that was planned from the beginning.

These are important points----quoting, so that they don't get lost. 

[oh_saki]

WvStolzing wrote...

noobcannon wrote...

i have a working theory on why they take you so far back. there seems to be alot of dialouge that got cut during the fight on earth and people have been upset about it. my guess is alot of it may have been cut in order to avoid giving away the indoctrination theory.

Or, all that dialogue, and the scenes that went with it, simply got cut, for whatever reason; and all we get is this drug-induced nightmare-like mess.

I really want this hallucination theory to prove right; and it certainly is very plausible. But the more we talk about it, and the more convinced we are as to its plausibility, the more we become susceptible to the fallacy of inferring 'what really did happen', from 'what really should have happened'.

Completely agree with you. We really are riding the line between what we hope actually happened and what actually happens. But so many of us are so vested in this series. Some of us want happy endings where we live off the rest of our days on the beach examining seashells like Mordin wanted to, some of us hope for dark endings but with closure. Plus, we all have the same general theory for an ending but differing opinions on when Shep gets indoc'd, etc. Bioware has a history of making solid games. Even DAII wasn't TOO bad. I played DAII without playing DA:O and enjoyed it enough to beat it, then I played DA:O and found out why everyone hated DAII so much. But every company is gonna slip up every once in a while. But Bioware knew how much of a fan base this has created, and what kind of universe this has created. They have to know how gutted most of us feel by this ending.

I hope.....

[BigBossBoo]

Anyone notice how all the dead human bodies on the 'citadel' are all bald and in general, identical? They even look partially synthetic or fake, comparatively to other humans in game. They don't quite look right...

Plus if TIM has the 'ability to control the reapers' why is he so adament at convincing Shepard he is right?  Why doesn't TIM just kill Shepard and take control of the reapers?

Modifié par BigBossBoo, 12 mars 2012 - 04:08 .

[lookingglassmind]

This is a shot wow napkinz just sent me over PM.

This is the shot of the two trees we were talking about that seem so out of place in a battlefield, and closely resemble trees seen in the opening scene on Earth, with the kid.

http://gyazo.com/fa1...4d414d593b247dc

Modifié par lookingglassmind, 12 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[krystalevenstar]

N3vDawg wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

Hey, whoa. Just noticed something major here in my Art of Mass Effect universe book I got today. Under the Illusive Man's page it reads, "One of the plans on the drawing board was to have the Illusive Man turn into a Reaper creature for the final battle. Eventually, this plan was scrapped, since we wanted to give players the satisfaction of fighting a character they know rather than a random creature."

We don't have a final battle now, and Kai Leng isn't really a 'character we know'... so what are they referencing?

I also just checked and it says this in the art book that came with the CE too

I don't know what to think of this, but this shouldn't be ignored.

Personally I don't see what they could be referencing besides Harbinger, and the more I listen to things the Star Child says, the more it sounds like Harbinger's voice in the background.

[Johnnatan]

noobcannon wrote...

Johnnatan wrote...

Maybe he never left the cerberus station at all. Why does the game return you to the latest saved game instead of a moment later before FTL jumping to Earth?. I mean... it does not return you or load a saved games while on Earth at all. Think about it!

Kinda of making you feel that the attack on Earth never happened. at least not yet. How cerberus recovered the human reaper, when i destroyed the whole facility... reaper included??? It needs to be explained beacuse it doesnt make sense either.

That would explain why I didnt see all my ground forces attacking. just Allaince soldiers and myself.

Did you see any geth attacking? any rachni or any merc at all attacking? Just 2 sequences with a few alliens when rallying to the beam. And the bea, sequence felt empty... Funny thing how you didnt need to do anything at all to get to the beam... just run, without fight or without cover or nothing... just running like a robot.

Rather interesting...

i have a working theory on why they take you so far back. there seems to be alot of dialouge that got cut during the fight on earth and people have been upset about it. my guess is alot of it may have been cut in order to avoid giving away the indoctrination theory, and may get put back in once the ending dlc/patch is released.

Maybe you are right. But it seems odd. I dont think that Shepard have actually left the facility. It was under attack, heavy fire, by the alliance fleets... but still they leave it intact when they decided to go to Earth. There is something weird about that. Even Kai Leng fight is kinda of odd. I am not even sure how I defeated him. I never depleated his health at all, and suddenly he was on the floor. Why TIM never asks for my destruction. Even the recordings he asks to Kai Leng not to kill him. It was weird but didnt pay attention to it.