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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#3276
rogueagent6

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prizm123 wrote...

i dont think the green ending has anything to do with indoctrination
i actually think the green ending might be the canon ending the more i think about it....EDI's visor changes color and she smiles, so the synthesis did what it said it would do, made her, and the Geth part organic....it would appear that it is actually the "happy" ending that was intended...

there is a reason that green was chosen as the color for that ending, it is also associated with life


Why is it then that the only way you get Shep alive on Earth is by choosing destroy? The kid says that choice will destroy all synthetic life, and emphasized that you are part synthetic. It sounded to me like he was trying to make me think I would be killed as well. Yet you are seen inhaling sharply and partially burried in rubble after the Normandy sequence ends. That would be indicitive of having shell shock after being too close to an explosion.

Maybe it is more simply stated like this:

Control = Succumbing to Indoctrination.
Synthesis = Succumbing to wounds received from Harby's laser blast, and you die.
Destruction = Fighting tooth and nail to hang onto your life and identity as a human being which results in you shaking off said shell shock from harby's laser.

I dunno, I think BW royally mind F***** all of us. And if so, they deserve to go down in history as the greatest game crafters and storytellers of all time.

#3277
Chicken Farmer

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Since I'm still only in the double digits of the thread, I have no idea if anyone else covered this in the previous pages, but does anyone else feel like it doesn't make sense for their Shep to be mentally scarred by the death of ONE little boy?

I mean, my Shepard is a sole survivor and colonist, meaning that she watched her family and friends either die or get dragged off by Batarian slavers and her whole squad get eaten by giant worm monsters. I really don't think the death of a few people blasted by a reaper laser or of a little kid is going to have my Shepard having bad dreams about it.

Not to mention, you only know the kid for a few hours(if he existed at all) before he gets blasted. I really don't think Shepard would feel anything rather than some remorse or sadness and the move on. This is coming from a mostly paragon Shepard player as well.

Well, there's my two cents. What do you guys think?

#3278
lil_89

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1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?

#3279
krystalevenstar

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John Never Dies wrote...

Has it been brought up that this is not found in the script? If you are planning a ending, for in this case indoctrination. Would you not want to know this as the people writing and designing the final section of the games are going to need to know whats up?


Not if they implimented this after the script leak.

#3280
Martukis

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noobcannon wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...

Holy wow! This thread is still going. Anyways I had a couple things to add. Decided to play some MP today to get my readiness to 80%, and my EMS to 5100. Restarted just after horizon so I could get the Shepard lives ending, but also changed out one of the members of my squad to see what would happen when Normandy crashes.

1. The Squad members you take with you in the final push to the beam don't seem to have any bearing on the sequence when Normandy crashes. On my initial play through I had James and Liara with me. On my replay I swapped Liara for Jalik. On both runs, Joker, Liara, and James step off the Normandy.

2. Why would there be convenient handles waiting for you to grab them, giving you control of the reapers? And why would shooting the conduit be the path to destroying the reapers? That would be akin to using a sledge hammer to drive a square peg into a round hole. The only way it fits is if it was meant to be symbolic only, which goes back to it being a hallucination.

3. I think the Stargazer at the end is more of a nod to Carl Sagan, who likely would have been a huge fan of the series.

Anyways, if it's already been said then ohh well. If not, here's more food for thought.


one theory i saw floating around was that the people who step off the normandy are your LI, joker, and or whoever you talked to the most in the game. is that consistent with who stepped off in your game?


 Well, this makes sense in my palythrough. Though the first time it was Joker and Edi then Tali stepping out (synthesis ending) and Joker and Tali then Javik with Destruction. I think it was still valid, as Edi was who I talked to most next to Tali.

#3281
krystalevenstar

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lil_89 wrote...

1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?


Control/Destroy-
 Joker, Kaiden, and Javik

Synthesize-
Joker, EDI, and Kaiden

#3282
Icinix

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lil_89 wrote...

1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?


Javik - and I spoke to him a tiny tid bit compared to everyone else on the Normandy. Liara and Garrus were with me on the trot down the hill.

#3283
Johnnatan

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oh_saki wrote...

WvStolzing wrote...

noobcannon wrote...

i have a working theory on why they take you so far back. there seems to be alot of dialouge that got cut during the fight on earth and people have been upset about it. my guess is alot of it may have been cut in order to avoid giving away the indoctrination theory.


Or, all that dialogue, and the scenes that went with it, simply got cut, for whatever reason; and all we get is this drug-induced nightmare-like mess.

I really want this hallucination theory to prove right; and it certainly is very plausible. But the more we talk about it, and the more convinced we are as to its plausibility, the more we become susceptible to the fallacy of inferring 'what really did happen', from 'what really should have happened'.


Completely agree with you. We really are riding the line between what we hope actually happened and what actually happens. But so many of us are so vested in this series. Some of us want happy endings where we live off the rest of our days on the beach examining seashells like Mordin wanted to, some of us hope for dark endings but with closure. Plus, we all have the same general theory for an ending but differing opinions on when Shep gets indoc'd, etc. Bioware has a history of making solid games. Even DAII wasn't TOO bad. I played DAII without playing DA:O and enjoyed it enough to beat it, then I played DA:O and found out why everyone hated DAII so much. But every company is gonna slip up every once in a while. But Bioware knew how much of a fan base this has created, and what kind of universe this has created. They have to know how gutted most of us feel by this ending.

I hope.....


Actually i dont care about Shepard dying... why? Simple enough! Which is the greatest virtue of a human being? Self-sacrifice for the loved ones, for a higher honor standard... a honor standard that allowed us to build the Shepard that we wanted. The thing is that the final sequences (even if the indoctrination theory) is right... are insulting. A slap in the face!...

Moreover... I keep thinking there is something odd... What was the point of getting the full galactic readiness and assests (10000 fleets amassed) if the final battle was waged merely by alliance soldiers and yourself? This doesnt make any sense. In my case, i was able to recruit everyone and to get 100% assets and 100% readiness... however, I didnt see my mighty fleet in action nor the ground forces. They always talked about how the Eclipse mechs were going to be a great assest during the ground assault. What happened with all the people that pledged allegiance to me? Specters? Salarians special forces? Zaeed and friends? Batarians with Balak in front? Turian special forces? Rachni? Geth Primes?... etc.. During the space attack I didnt see a single quarian, geth or batarian battleship, only a few quarians and a geth reporting in. What happened to all of it? The attack on Earth felt strange all the way from the beginning to the end.

Eventually the beam story is a Shepard hallucination of some sort. I had the dragon age armor during the running to the beam.. and it is magically substitued by the clothes that i had on when I left Earth, remember? The infinite ammo gun (just a pistol)... the marauder being killed in 2 shots. Doesnt make any sense... Thats why people is angry. At the end after all your efforts, you get an ending that doesnt make any sense after all they have promised in the last months... why? To sell you a few DLC... which who knows when they are going to be launched??? I dont undertsand any of it.

I am supporting all the complaints because I want an answer. I am a customer and just due to that simple fact I deserve more than just silence from Bioware.

Modifié par Johnnatan, 12 mars 2012 - 04:22 .


#3284
noobcannon

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lil_89 wrote...

1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?


i assumed it was just default armor because that cutscene was pre-rendered.

#3285
lavosslayer

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lookingglassmind wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...

Holy wow! This thread is still going. Anyways I had a couple things to add. Decided to play some MP today to get my readiness to 80%, and my EMS to 5100. Restarted just after horizon so I could get the Shepard lives ending, but also changed out one of the members of my squad to see what would happen when Normandy crashes.

1. The Squad members you take with you in the final push to the beam don't seem to have any bearing on the sequence when Normandy crashes. On my initial play through I had James and Liara with me. On my replay I swapped Liara for Jalik. On both runs, Joker, Liara, and James step off the Normandy.


I think we figured this out this morning. Who is on the Normandy after the Destroy ending is determined by:

1. Who your LI is (always steps out second)

2. Then who you have interacted with the most (always steps out third).


Wouldn't the fact that if Shepard's LI was a ME2 character like Jack, Jacob or Miranda since none of them step off the Normandy, make this idea of this almost a nightmare...? I mean Sheps LI isn't there how the hell could shepard be happy and give in when his/her LI didn't make it!? IF I was Shep I'd be ready to rip off someones face!

#3286
noobcannon

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Icinix wrote...

lil_89 wrote...

1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?


Javik - and I spoke to him a tiny tid bit compared to everyone else on the Normandy. Liara and Garrus were with me on the trot down the hill.


did you also choose the destroy option and have 5000+ war assets?

#3287
lil_89

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krystalevenstar wrote...

lil_89 wrote...

1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?


Control/Destroy-
 Joker, Kaiden, and Javik

Synthesize-
Joker, EDI, and Kaiden


Seems like EDI steps out on every synthesize ending

#3288
aquaticidioticus

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Mr. Mistake wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Mr. Mistake wrote...

Sorry, but you folks gotta see this:

http://i.imgur.com/KbrMI.jpg

EDIT: Hyperlinked now, for your convenience.


Not working for me


Forgive me, I am a Newbie here.

http://i.imgur.com/KbrMI.jpg?


Redditor?  I saw that there and laughs were had.  Seriously sums up the game if it turns out our assumptions are false (plausible, but I'm still holding out hope).

#3289
oh_saki

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krystalevenstar wrote...

lil_89 wrote...

1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?


Control/Destroy-
 Joker, Kaiden, and Javik

Synthesize-
Joker, EDI, and Kaiden


We talked about this a few pages back, haha.

Destroy ending has Joker followed by LI if you had one, followed by (apparently) whoever you interacted with most.

Synthesize I'm not so sure. It seems like Joker and EDI are the first two out pretty consistently for synthesis. My third person out was James.

Modifié par oh_saki, 12 mars 2012 - 04:19 .


#3290
BlackDragonBane

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oh_saki wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

lil_89 wrote...

1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?


Control/Destroy-
 Joker, Kaiden, and Javik

Synthesize-
Joker, EDI, and Kaiden


We talked about this a few pages back, haha.

Destroy ending has Joker followed by LI, followed by (apparently) whoever you interacted with most.

Synthesize I'm not so sure. It seems like Joker and EDI are the first two out pretty consistently for synthesis. My third person out was James.


With Synthesis, it's Joker and EDI, then either your LI or whoever was your closests friend.

#3291
lookingglassmind

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lavosslayer wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...

Holy wow! This thread is still going. Anyways I had a couple things to add. Decided to play some MP today to get my readiness to 80%, and my EMS to 5100. Restarted just after horizon so I could get the Shepard lives ending, but also changed out one of the members of my squad to see what would happen when Normandy crashes.

1. The Squad members you take with you in the final push to the beam don't seem to have any bearing on the sequence when Normandy crashes. On my initial play through I had James and Liara with me. On my replay I swapped Liara for Jalik. On both runs, Joker, Liara, and James step off the Normandy.


I think we figured this out this morning. Who is on the Normandy after the Destroy ending is determined by:

1. Who your LI is (always steps out second)

2. Then who you have interacted with the most (always steps out third).


Wouldn't the fact that if Shepard's LI was a ME2 character like Jack, Jacob or Miranda since none of them step off the Normandy, make this idea of this almost a nightmare...? I mean Sheps LI isn't there how the hell could shepard be happy and give in when his/her LI didn't make it!? IF I was Shep I'd be ready to rip off someones face!


GOOD point. So, then, maybe it's really an interaction check. Who ever the two squadmates are that you most interact with, not specifically LIs.

#3292
Wolder88

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I must admit, reading this thread for the first time I was like"sure, try and rationalize the bad ending away"... but now, I just dont know.

It just seems so out of character for bioware to come up with this ending..after all the interviews, foreshadowing, missing Gigs in the final game, cut audio with Anderson...

What really gets me is the fact that the first time I played the ending, I was 100% sure it was a dream sequence until the credits rolled...

Then again, why would bioware do this if they got a great ending somewhere collecting dust?

#3293
Fledgey

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krystalevenstar wrote...

Something else glaringly obvious that I don't believe has been addressed yet is, where is the final scene supposed to be taking place? Where on the Citadel are these two giant platforms with handles to control the reapers and a giant thing to destroy to kill them. We can see The Crucible above us, so we're on the tip of that antenna portion of The Citadel, but we've never seen this area before and why wouldn't any of the other alien races have noticed this giant room outside that pillar thing?

Bingo. The area you're at inside doesn't seem to exist from other angles we've seen the citadel at as well.

#3294
Golferguy758

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Wolder88 wrote...

I must admit, reading this thread for the first time I was like"sure, try and rationalize the bad ending away"... but now, I just dont know.

It just seems so out of character for bioware to come up with this ending..after all the interviews, foreshadowing, missing Gigs in the final game, cut audio with Anderson...

What really gets me is the fact that the first time I played the ending, I was 100% sure it was a dream sequence until the credits rolled...

Then again, why would bioware do this if they got a great ending somewhere collecting dust?


Delay it so that the actual endings are not relased prior to the world being indoctrinated. This way everyone experiences this without immediately going "Meh, continuing on"

#3295
IronSabbath88

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For the people asking why there's readiness and such to let you see just a body breathing at the end... the answer to me is simple. If you did all that work, BioWare shows you the teaser that helps you piece together the fact that this was all in Shepard's head and you picked the right choice. That's not to say you won't be able to keep going if you picked the wrong choice, the "perfect" ending is actually the one that gives you that subtle hint.

Makes sense to me.

#3296
BlackDragonBane

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Fledgey wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

Something else glaringly obvious that I don't believe has been addressed yet is, where is the final scene supposed to be taking place? Where on the Citadel are these two giant platforms with handles to control the reapers and a giant thing to destroy to kill them. We can see The Crucible above us, so we're on the tip of that antenna portion of The Citadel, but we've never seen this area before and why wouldn't any of the other alien races have noticed this giant room outside that pillar thing?

Bingo. The area you're at inside doesn't seem to exist from other angles we've seen the citadel at as well.


There's a codex entry for the Citadel that suggests that not every inch of the Citadel has ever been explored by any race that's occupied it

ven after thousands of years of occupation, the Citadel retains many secrets. The precise age of the station is not known, nor what resilient material it is constructed from. The location of the Citadel's core and its master control unit, regulating systems such as life support and navigation, remain hidden. 

#3297
lil_89

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noobcannon wrote...

Icinix wrote...

lil_89 wrote...

1.To the people who keep saying that Shep isn't wearing armor, he is, it's just that it's very damaged. S/he is wearing the stantard N7 armor, default black, to players who have used another color or a different type of armor this may seem like a clue, but I'm sure it's just lazy Bioware again.

2. Concerning the "who steps out of Normandy after crash"; I had Ash (romanced miranda in 3 so no-go) and Vega step out, conversed a lot more with Liara and Garrus, but I think this has something to do with that this is the "renegate" outcome aka HUMANITY FTW, maybe? Anyone had an alien step out after the destroy ending?


Javik - and I spoke to him a tiny tid bit compared to everyone else on the Normandy. Liara and Garrus were with me on the trot down the hill.


did you also choose the destroy option and have 5000+ war assets?


No, I did not, didn't know about the "secret" ending and went in with about 4000 if I remember correctly 

#3298
shadowspecialist

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

For the people asking why there's readiness and such to let you see just a body breathing at the end... the answer to me is simple. If you did all that work, BioWare shows you the teaser that helps you piece together the fact that this was all in Shepard's head and you picked the right choice. That's not to say you won't be able to keep going if you picked the wrong choice, the "perfect" ending is actually the one that gives you that subtle hint.

Makes sense to me.


I like this train of thought.

#3299
rogueagent6

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

For the people asking why there's readiness and such to let you see just a body breathing at the end... the answer to me is simple. If you did all that work, BioWare shows you the teaser that helps you piece together the fact that this was all in Shepard's head and you picked the right choice. That's not to say you won't be able to keep going if you picked the wrong choice, the "perfect" ending is actually the one that gives you that subtle hint.

Makes sense to me.


Yes, but if it all was in his/her head, then you haven't actually destroyed the reapers yet. ;)

#3300
prizm123

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rogueagent6 wrote...



Why is it then that the only way you get Shep alive on Earth is by choosing destroy?


how do you know it is Shep? there are a lot of N7 soldiers out there