57139 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonTan87]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Auresta wrote...

WvStolzing wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...

The hallucination theory is completely plausible, although I feel that it is unlikely.

The one rule of such major plot twists is that there has to be a clear narrative prepping throughout the game. You've to look for something that is completely inexplicable; something that can only be explained with the hallucination. I do not feel the foreshadowing cited as examples throughout this thread are convincing enough -- simply because I can refute every most of them easily with a conventional knowledge.

The youtube video does not help your cause; it is beyond nitpicking. For example; You do not see your UI because your UI is linked to Shep's suit (you don't see your UI when Shep's in his casual gear). Shep's suit was destroyed when he took the reaper laser. Your screen looks blurry at the edges because Shep just took a direct laser hit to the face. The reason why Illusive man looks like saren is because he chose to implant reaper tech into himself (explained via video log in the Cerebus assault); he was basically being huskified.

Don't get me wrong -- I want to believe that this is it, that Bioware is about pull the world's greatest video game stunt. But after viewing the 'evidence' again for myself, I can't help but doubt.

The other matter is this: if it is really a hallucination, and Bioware intended it to be like that; it feels tacked on at the last minute, not something that was planned from the beginning.

These are important points----quoting, so that they don't get lost. 

This - we have to remember to keep perspective.

Something completely inexplicable? How about Shepard going against everythign he has been fighting for for the past  games. i.e the freedom for organics and synthetics to forge their own destiny and not lay down and accept what is given to them through an illusionof choice.

but I do appreciate the counterpoints, nonetheless.

I feel that the ending was a bout of bad and sloppy writing.  That pretty much explains the cop-out attempt at resolution.

Modifié par JasonTan87, 12 mars 2012 - 04:24 .

[Golferguy758]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Fledgey wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

Something else glaringly obvious that I don't believe has been addressed yet is, where is the final scene supposed to be taking place? Where on the Citadel are these two giant platforms with handles to control the reapers and a giant thing to destroy to kill them. We can see The Crucible above us, so we're on the tip of that antenna portion of The Citadel, but we've never seen this area before and why wouldn't any of the other alien races have noticed this giant room outside that pillar thing?

Bingo. The area you're at inside doesn't seem to exist from other angles we've seen the citadel at as well.

There's a codex entry for the Citadel that suggests that not every inch of the Citadel has ever been explored by any race that's occupied it


ven after thousands of years of occupation, the Citadel retains many secrets. The precise age of the station is not known, nor what resilient material it is constructed from. The location of the Citadel's core and its master control unit, regulating systems such as life support and navigation, remain hidden. 

While that makes sense, and would fit perfectly  in and explain why no one has seen this before. The issue lies in that this choice area is outside. It's not as though it'd be sequestered in some back area of the citadel. This would be in plain sight. 

[Mr. Mistake]

lookingglassmind wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...

Holy wow! This thread is still going. Anyways I had a couple things to add. Decided to play some MP today to get my readiness to 80%, and my EMS to 5100. Restarted just after horizon so I could get the Shepard lives ending, but also changed out one of the members of my squad to see what would happen when Normandy crashes.

1. The Squad members you take with you in the final push to the beam don't seem to have any bearing on the sequence when Normandy crashes. On my initial play through I had James and Liara with me. On my replay I swapped Liara for Jalik. On both runs, Joker, Liara, and James step off the Normandy.

I think we figured this out this morning. Who is on the Normandy after the Destroy ending is determined by:

1. Who your LI is (always steps out second)

2. Then who you have interacted with the most (always steps out third).

Wouldn't the fact that if Shepard's LI was a ME2 character like Jack, Jacob or Miranda since none of them step off the Normandy, make this idea of this almost a nightmare...? I mean Sheps LI isn't there how the hell could shepard be happy and give in when his/her LI didn't make it!? IF I was Shep I'd be ready to rip off someones face!

GOOD point. So, then, maybe it's really an interaction check. Who ever the two squadmates are that you most interact with, not specifically LIs.

I romanced my Black Widow sniper rifle, and she never stepped out of the Normandy in the "end".

In all seriousness, though, are we sure it's not who you take with you on the last mission that steps out?

[lavosslayer]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Fledgey wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

Something else glaringly obvious that I don't believe has been addressed yet is, where is the final scene supposed to be taking place? Where on the Citadel are these two giant platforms with handles to control the reapers and a giant thing to destroy to kill them. We can see The Crucible above us, so we're on the tip of that antenna portion of The Citadel, but we've never seen this area before and why wouldn't any of the other alien races have noticed this giant room outside that pillar thing?

Bingo. The area you're at inside doesn't seem to exist from other angles we've seen the citadel at as well.

There's a codex entry for the Citadel that suggests that not every inch of the Citadel has ever been explored by any race that's occupied it

ven after thousands of years of occupation, the Citadel retains many secrets. The precise age of the station is not known, nor what resilient material it is constructed from. The location of the Citadel's core and its master control unit, regulating systems such as life support and navigation, remain hidden. 

If I was the Asari that would have been the first thing I ever did was send a scouting party throughout the entire structure in order to map it all out...seems kind of nieve to just accept the fact that "it works" on its own...this is why Matriarch Aytheta is a total genius (less time whoring around and killing and more time studying science)

[Fledgey]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Fledgey wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

Something else glaringly obvious that I don't believe has been addressed yet is, where is the final scene supposed to be taking place? Where on the Citadel are these two giant platforms with handles to control the reapers and a giant thing to destroy to kill them. We can see The Crucible above us, so we're on the tip of that antenna portion of The Citadel, but we've never seen this area before and why wouldn't any of the other alien races have noticed this giant room outside that pillar thing?

Bingo. The area you're at inside doesn't seem to exist from other angles we've seen the citadel at as well.

There's a codex entry for the Citadel that suggests that not every inch of the Citadel has ever been explored by any race that's occupied it

ven after thousands of years of occupation, the Citadel retains many secrets. The precise age of the station is not known, nor what resilient material it is constructed from. The location of the Citadel's core and its master control unit, regulating systems such as life support and navigation, remain hidden. 

The area you're in appears to be somewhere near the middle and on the outside. Seems odd that such an easy to get to place would never have been noticed. And the starchild part would have to be right on the hull near the crucible.

[Golferguy758]

JasonTan87 wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Auresta wrote...

WvStolzing wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...

The hallucination theory is completely plausible, although I feel that it is unlikely.

The one rule of such major plot twists is that there has to be a clear narrative prepping throughout the game. You've to look for something that is completely inexplicable; something that can only be explained with the hallucination. I do not feel the foreshadowing cited as examples throughout this thread are convincing enough -- simply because I can refute every most of them easily with a conventional knowledge.

The youtube video does not help your cause; it is beyond nitpicking. For example; You do not see your UI because your UI is linked to Shep's suit (you don't see your UI when Shep's in his casual gear). Shep's suit was destroyed when he took the reaper laser. Your screen looks blurry at the edges because Shep just took a direct laser hit to the face. The reason why Illusive man looks like saren is because he chose to implant reaper tech into himself (explained via video log in the Cerebus assault); he was basically being huskified.

Don't get me wrong -- I want to believe that this is it, that Bioware is about pull the world's greatest video game stunt. But after viewing the 'evidence' again for myself, I can't help but doubt.

The other matter is this: if it is really a hallucination, and Bioware intended it to be like that; it feels tacked on at the last minute, not something that was planned from the beginning.

These are important points----quoting, so that they don't get lost. 

This - we have to remember to keep perspective.

Something completely inexplicable? How about Shepard going against everythign he has been fighting for for the past  games. i.e the freedom for organics and synthetics to forge their own destiny and not lay down and accept what is given to them through an illusionof choice.

but I do appreciate the counterpoints, nonetheless.

I feel that the ending was a bout of bad and sloppy writing.  That pretty much explains the cop-out attempt at resolution.

Then explain why the remainder of the game was written so well, by the same writers. I could understand the bad writing reasoning if the rest of the game has as many plotholes, errors, and incongruencies. 

[IronSabbath88]

rogueagent6 wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

For the people asking why there's readiness and such to let you see just a body breathing at the end... the answer to me is simple. If you did all that work, BioWare shows you the teaser that helps you piece together the fact that this was all in Shepard's head and you picked the right choice. That's not to say you won't be able to keep going if you picked the wrong choice, the "perfect" ending is actually the one that gives you that subtle hint.

Makes sense to me.

Yes, but if it all was in his/her head, then you haven't actually destroyed the reapers yet.

True, but from what the Catalyst insists, it WANTS you to pick Control or Synthesis. It does everything in it's power to make you NOT take Destroy. Because that's not what the Reapers want. Notice it's the only ending where the Reapers fall over dead?

It's Shepard fighting off the indoctrination by making the correct choice in his head.

[oh_saki]

prizm123 wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...



Why is it then that the only way you get Shep alive on Earth is by choosing destroy?

how do you know it is Shep? there are a lot of N7 soldiers out there

True, we don't but it is heavily implied. Like in the firs t ME2 trailer when we first saw Legion wearing N7 armor and it said Shepard was KIA. Technically, he was, and Legion really was wearing Shepards armor. Showing us someone else wearing N7 armor wouldn't make sense.

[PrinceOfFallout13]

also shep awakes after the planet scene

so it seems all the parts after the beam were in his mind

i hope they release

me3 apocalypse

finish tim and activate the crucible (if you chose destroy of course)

[ObSoL33tSNiiPer]

Fledgey wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

Something else glaringly obvious that I don't believe has been addressed yet is, where is the final scene supposed to be taking place? Where on the Citadel are these two giant platforms with handles to control the reapers and a giant thing to destroy to kill them. We can see The Crucible above us, so we're on the tip of that antenna portion of The Citadel, but we've never seen this area before and why wouldn't any of the other alien races have noticed this giant room outside that pillar thing?

Bingo. The area you're at inside doesn't seem to exist from other angles we've seen the citadel at as well.

They would do this to bring up controvercy.  Notice how many many people are talking about it?  They can make money now if they release DLC that will change the ending.  It seems like an EA thing though to try to make money.  I just do not believe this is actually what Bioware is really doing though.  This could just all be speculation about the game and that we are making up our own ending simply because we want it to be true.  Then Bioware could go along with it and make us believe that we were actually right when maybe we just made them do what we wanted them to do.

[Fledgey]

oh_saki wrote...

prizm123 wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...



Why is it then that the only way you get Shep alive on Earth is by choosing destroy?

how do you know it is Shep? there are a lot of N7 soldiers out there

True, we don't but it is heavily implied. Like in the firs t ME2 trailer when we first saw Legion wearing N7 armor and it said Shepard was KIA. Technically, he was, and Legion really was wearing Shepards armor. Showing us someone else wearing N7 armor wouldn't make sense.

There is a male and female version in the game files that plays depending on the gender of your shep.

[Lambchopz]

Well, this is still in the realm of wishful thinking. It's pretty clear to me that people WANT this to be true whether BioWare does or not. That will probably have an impact on how people percieve BioWares handlings of this.

Now that this has been brought up, I think BioWare has sort of been backed into a corner. If they refute this theory, they will ****** a lot of people off more then they already have.

If they simply leave it be, then they still aren't fixing anything.

Regardless, I don't think BioWare can simply sit around and not address the issue of the endings for very long. At some point, they will probably need to make an official statement on the issue. We'll see.

Still good ideas, but I am not all that confident it's going anywhere. Especially when you consider comments from individual team members essentially insulting those who oppose the current ending.

Here's to hoping I suppose.

[Sl4sh3r]

Hey guys. Figured I'd show you some love as well..

Here's a sig!

Indoctrination Theory Signature
http://i748.photobuc...octrination.jpg

Modifié par Sl4sh3r, 12 mars 2012 - 04:28 .

[Ona Demonie]

Guys, is it possible that IF you chose the Destroy route and Shepard wakes up, that the Crucible actually did fire like it was suppose to? So, we all know Shepard wakes up in London... but if that's true, why is there no Reaper noises? No laser noises? Is it possible that the Crucible really did work while Shepard was going through the hallucination?

[Warhawk7137]

My own intepretation is that the "catalyst" is 3 things in one: Harbinger, exerting as much hold as he can over Shepard; Shepard's subconscious manifestation of TIM; and Shepard's subconscious manifestation of Anderson.

The drawbacks of each choice are voiced by the other 2, essentially.  I.E., the stated drawbacks of the destroy ending are the destruction of synthetic life including the Geth and EDI (which is Harbinger playing on Shepard's fears, becasue Harbinger doesn't want the kind of harmony between synthetics and organics that Shepard has accomplished - he wants to domiante them), and the destruction of the relays (which is Shepard's subsoncious manifestation of TIM, trying to convince him that to destroy the Reapers would harm the galaxy by inhibiting technological progress, and that organics should use that power instead).  It also explains why the drawbacks for control and synthesis are essentially the same - because it's Anderson warning Shepard that, by going down either path, he will essentially lose himself, and everything he's stood for.  As for the synthesis ending, strictly speaking that's what the Reapers already are - a synthesis of organic and synthetic in a truly horrifying way.

So, there are really only 2 possible endings.  The catalyst fires and the Reapers are destroyed, or it doesn't and they aren't (because control means the Reapers win, because you can't control them).

Basically, the endings line up as follows:

Control: Arrogance.  Desire for power.  Represents the delusion that you are in control, like TIM, but you are not.  Ultimately futile.  Pride is your downfall.

Synthesis: Despair.  You give up.  Represents acceptance of the idea that organics and synthetics alike shouldn't be able to choose their own path.  Let the reapers win, and become one with them.

Destroy: Defiance.  Do what you set out to do in the first place.  Represents staying true to the belief that we ought to be able to make our own future.  Life doesn't need to be guided - it can guide itself.

[bangblastboomart]

Not sure if anyone else has noticed, or previously stated, but further adding to the hallucinaton theory:

- Heading towards the conduit after "waking up" from being hit by the Reaper's beam; suddenly, the Reaper is no longer there!

-Also, Shepard seems to have the tendancy to ask pretty dumb/obvious questions and while we all guessed that the catalyst was merely taking the shape of the boy for Shepard's benefit, why did Shepard not question this at all?

Seems pretty suspicious...

[rogueagent6]

Mr. Mistake wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

lookingglassmind wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...

Holy wow! This thread is still going. Anyways I had a couple things to add. Decided to play some MP today to get my readiness to 80%, and my EMS to 5100. Restarted just after horizon so I could get the Shepard lives ending, but also changed out one of the members of my squad to see what would happen when Normandy crashes.

1. The Squad members you take with you in the final push to the beam don't seem to have any bearing on the sequence when Normandy crashes. On my initial play through I had James and Liara with me. On my replay I swapped Liara for Jalik. On both runs, Joker, Liara, and James step off the Normandy.

I think we figured this out this morning. Who is on the Normandy after the Destroy ending is determined by:

1. Who your LI is (always steps out second)

2. Then who you have interacted with the most (always steps out third).

Wouldn't the fact that if Shepard's LI was a ME2 character like Jack, Jacob or Miranda since none of them step off the Normandy, make this idea of this almost a nightmare...? I mean Sheps LI isn't there how the hell could shepard be happy and give in when his/her LI didn't make it!? IF I was Shep I'd be ready to rip off someones face!

GOOD point. So, then, maybe it's really an interaction check. Who ever the two squadmates are that you most interact with, not specifically LIs.

I romanced my Black Widow sniper rifle, and she never stepped out of the Normandy in the "end".

In all seriousness, though, are we sure it's not who you take with you on the last mission that steps out?

There was speculation earlier in this thread regarding your squad and how they were miraculously transported to a Normandy in FTL travel between relays. For most of us it seems to have been the squad you had with you at the end, it certainly was for me. I made another run today after increasing my EMS to 5100 and swapped out one of my squadmembers at the end to see if it changed anything, which it did not.

[noobcannon]

[Fledgey]

Ona Demonie wrote...

Guys, is it possible that IF you chose the Destroy route and Shepard wakes up, that the Crucible actually did fire like it was suppose to? So, we all know Shepard wakes up in London... but if that's true, why is there no Reaper noises? No laser noises? Is it possible that the Crucible really did work while Shepard was going through the hallucination?

I suppose if someone else was able to open the arms, which isn't likely.

[MRedfield]

Deklan_Caine wrote...

MRedfield wrote...

Deklan_Caine wrote...

I have a couple of observations to contribute to the theory that it doesn't seem like others have caught (apologies if someone else caught these already and I missed it...):

1) As soon as Shepherd "wakes up" after being blasted by the Reaper laser, he's limping. If, as you're playing, you try to look/aim down at Shep's feet, you can't. The view angle get's blocked so that you can't see below his/her knees. If you watch the pace of the legs moving, though, it becomes really obvious that Shepherd is moving considerably faster than he is actually walking, almost floating as it were. At first when I noticed this in the my second play-though I just figured it was designed that way because making Shepherds speed the same as his walk would make the last moments in the game take 3 times longer (and it already seemed to take forever). But if we're rolling with the hallucination/indoctrination theory, then the fact that he's practically floating on his feet just adds more fuel to the fire...

2) When the "Catalyst" child starts listing the three options, he goes out of his way to make destruction sound like a terrible idea. "If you do this you'll kill all the Geth you've helped, not to mention that your kids will just make more robots farther down the road and nothing will really be solved." The kid also very pointedly avoids claiming that Shepard will die outright if he chooses that option, merely dropping a hint that Shep "might" die. Shepard also expresses doubts in the child's judgment by saying "Maybe." This is in direct contrast with the other two options (control and synthesis), where the kid goes out of his way to make them sound much more appealing, says clearly that either option will kill Shepard, and Shepard expresses zero doubts about either of the propositions. Then there's the fact that, all of the sudden, a character (Anderson) that would typically be associated with the paragon color (blue) is represented by the renegade color (red/orange), and the Illusive Man, the embodiment of pure renegade, is given the paragon color. Everything about the scene is slanted to make the most obvious choice (destroy the Reapers) the least appealing, and turns the rest of the game (and the previous 2 games) on it's head. Not 30 seconds ago back by the console TIM was obviously the clear-cut indoctrinated villain (shooting Anderson) , but now the god-kid tries to snooker Shep into believing TIM was a tragic hero who would do the right thing. On the other hand, Anderson, who was making a heroic stand with Shep against the villainous Illusive Man, gets relegated to the role of murdering maniac who would choose the "bad" option and blow the Reapers to kingdom come. If that's not a clear attempt to indoctrinate Shepard, what is?

The line Harbinger repeated over and over in ME2 was that the Reapers would be "your salvation through destruction." Well, the synthesis and control options are literally salvation for the galaxy through Shep's destruction, buying into a compliance mindset. The only option that leaves Shep breathing is to destroy the Reapers, which has been the point since ME1. All the evidence points to the last sequence being a battle for Shepards mind that is only won when Shep chooses the path that the god-kid tries to convince him not to take.

What we then see (when we choose the RIGHT option) is Shepard waking up from the nightmare after having beaten the Reapers' last ditch attempt to stop him within his own mind. The fact that the god-kid just looks like a ghost version of the exact kid that has been haunting Shep's dreams since the beginning of the game makes it seem all the more plausible. I, for one, will assume that since Shep wakes up, victory is assured: he beams to the Citadel, blows away TIM with a REAL gun, punches the button on the console, and watches the Crucible-powered Citadel wipe the Reapers off the galactic map just like it was supposed to do.

This should be stapled to the top of every page in this thread.

I wish the 'report' button had an option for 'the best post on BSN, ever.'

*Is very flattered*

You should be! You saved me a whoooooooole lot of typing, because you put out, damn near word for word, exactly what I was thinking after the initial shock of the ending wore off. 

[Yalision]

There's no place like home, there's no place like home...

Modifié par Yalision, 12 mars 2012 - 04:29 .

[blooregard]

prizm123 wrote...

rogueagent6 wrote...



Why is it then that the only way you get Shep alive on Earth is by choosing destroy?

how do you know it is Shep? there are a lot of N7 soldiers out there

from the reading I've done becoming an N1 is a major acomplishment becomming N7 is something even higher ranking officers notice and respect (which may explain why Hackett treats Shepard as an equal is some cases)

[BlackDragonBane]

Fledgey wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Fledgey wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

Something else glaringly obvious that I don't believe has been addressed yet is, where is the final scene supposed to be taking place? Where on the Citadel are these two giant platforms with handles to control the reapers and a giant thing to destroy to kill them. We can see The Crucible above us, so we're on the tip of that antenna portion of The Citadel, but we've never seen this area before and why wouldn't any of the other alien races have noticed this giant room outside that pillar thing?

Bingo. The area you're at inside doesn't seem to exist from other angles we've seen the citadel at as well.

There's a codex entry for the Citadel that suggests that not every inch of the Citadel has ever been explored by any race that's occupied it

ven after thousands of years of occupation, the Citadel retains many secrets. The precise age of the station is not known, nor what resilient material it is constructed from. The location of the Citadel's core and its master control unit, regulating systems such as life support and navigation, remain hidden. 

The area you're in appears to be somewhere near the middle and on the outside. Seems odd that such an easy to get to place would never have been noticed. And the starchild part would have to be right on the hull near the crucible.

In hindsight, this little detail likely further supports the hallucination theory. If the Asari had done a full sweep of the Citadel's exterior, I'm sure someone one noticed the two large apparatuses and the hole between them and gone 'hey, what is that for?'

[Foulpancake]

Whoa whoa guys, i just noticed something. On Chris Priestlies twitter someone asks if the 2 squad mates who charged the beam with you were killed and he responds

"I don't think we've revealed that yet sorry"

...if the ending was really the ending, how could that not be revealed? I mean they walked right off the normandy miraculously didn't they?

Modifié par Foulpancake, 12 mars 2012 - 04:31 .

[noobcannon]