57139 réponses à ce sujet

[GBGriffin]

blooregard wrote...


I find it kinda strange when ever your name is mentioned you appear.

Well, I was hoping that it wouldn't be mentioned that much anymore.

In all honesty, I just wanted to thank Dusk for the compliment and I got carried away from there

[holyDEATHTRAP]

pirate1802 wrote...

When does this hearing hum conversation occur?

It happens fairly early i'd say somewhere after your first round with Vega and Palevan after you finish the dialogue tree keep hitting the interact button for the one liners and he says do you hear a hum or is it just me

[GBGriffin]

DuskRose wrote...

GB, I agree with most of your post and I'm sorry that some people in this thread don't know how to reason/argue civilly.

That being said, the idea that only people who choose destroy would continue has been dismissed repeatedly on this thread.

Also, your sig makes me giggle

Haha, thanks

I assumed that idea about Destroy, I'll admit, is dated, and you've addressed that. It was the "hot" interpretation around the time I tried discussing it, though, and I've still seen it pop up that "Destroy" is the only "correct" choice...which, again, I don't agree with, even though I will personally always pick Destroy. To me, it showed that there are multiple variations of the theory, so if BioWare were to support it...exactly what version would they support? To me, that was a crucial issue that needed clarifying.

If it's been dismissed, and repeatedly dismiss, then I must have missed it, and I will adjust my argument and position regarding it accordingly. If that is no longer the general consensus, then I approve of the shift.  Again, it's been brought up that it may be time to create a new thread to assemble some of these new ideas and make them easier to find. 

Modifié par GBGriffin, 08 avril 2012 - 06:16 .

[blooregard]

holyDEATHTRAP wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

When does this hearing hum conversation occur?

It happens fairly early i'd say somewhere after your first round with Vega and Palevan after you finish the dialogue tree keep hitting the interact button for the one liners and he says do you hear a hum or is it just me

To be fair this is one of the things I think we can toss out when it comes to proving the indoctrination theory. The hum and the god pistol because you can hear a hum as ambient noise and the god pistol is wrapped up in game mechanics from countless games.

[Voodzik]

So to chime in on the vega discussion a bit back....

I HATE vega. I don't like Zaeed much either, but I hate vega. Now, I wasn't a huge fan of the other major male human protagonists; Kaiden and Jacob. I felt they were bland an boring. Not BAD, just not up to par with the other characters. Vega is worse. He has no real character, he might as well be cut and pasted from a thousand awful movies, and he's just....so LAME. But that's not the reason I hate him.

I play femshep. If you ever do? Watch Vega's eyes. He stares at your chest all game. They bothered to ANIMATE it. That and he does this little hitting on you thing when he knows not only that (in my case) shepherd is his commanding officer, she has a girlfriend, said girlfriend is an insanely powerful biotic, AND one of the most powerful women in the galaxy....but she is ON the SHIP.

Even if I were so inclined as to do anything with this faux Hispanic cliche that hobbles through the game only able to support the weight of his own muscles because his skull is empty, I would have to be colossally stupid to try it with a girlfriend who could rip me in half with her mind A FEW YARDS AWAY.

Edit: spelling. I always miss something.

Modifié par Voodzik, 08 avril 2012 - 06:19 .

[GBGriffin]

Voodzik wrote...

So to chime in on the vega discussion a bit back....

I HATE vega. I don't like Zaeed much either, but I hate vega. Now, I wasn't a huge fan of the other major male human protagonists; Kaiden and Jacob. I felt they were bland an boring. Not BAD, just not up to par with the other characters. Vega is worse. He has no real character, he might as well be cut and pasted from a thousand awful movies, and he's just....so LAME. But that's not the reason I hate him.

I play femshep. If you ever do? Watch Vega's eyes. He stares at your chest all game. They bithered to ANIMATE it. That and he does this little hitting on you thing when he knows not only that (in my case) shepherd is his commanding officer, she has a girlfriend, said girlfriend is an insanely powerful biotic, AND one of the most powerful women in the galaxy....but she is ON the SHIP.

Even if I were so inclined as to do anything with this faux Hispanic cliche that hobbles through the game only able to support the weight of his own muscles because his skull is empty, I would have to be colossally stupid to try it with a girlfriend who could rip me in half with her mind A FEW YARDS AWAY.

Well, before I head off until my next summoning, I'll chime in that I generally like Vega, but I actually didn't notice the bit about the chest staring ( I play femshep with a Liara LI, and you raise a very good point ) To me, the best chest stare is Kasumi in ME2...I'll have to try and catch him in the act now

FPJ made me like Vega more than I thought I would, though his choice to be faux Hispanic at times is absolutely jarring. I'm not asking for a stereotypical dialect, but it just....doesn't flow very well when he throws in his Hispanic phrases. FPJ does a nice job...but I still don't think it fits very well.

Modifié par GBGriffin, 08 avril 2012 - 06:22 .

[holyDEATHTRAP]

I was really starting to buy into indoc but a thought just occurred to me. If you argue that Shep was partially indoctrinated from start of game and we know it takes a while to build to full blow influence. On Thessia the Prothean VI is all willing to help you until Cerberus shows up claiming that indoctrinated lifeforms are present. So the VI can detect indoctrination and shuts down when present so on Thessia you have a clean bill of health you have little Reaper interaction after this. Also after Cerberus base you interact with VI again and it does say that TIM hacked its security protocols but it still identifies him as being indoctrinated it just couldn't resist helping him but the ability to sense indoctrination still seems present suggesting again a clean bill of health and rallying Earth is all thats left to do making you being indoctrinated very unlikely. The only way to avoid this is if your under full indoctrination for the entire game and none of the game was real so what really happened from Arrival onwards maybe you never left the lab.

[blooregard]

Voodzik wrote...

So to chime in on the vega discussion a bit back....

I HATE vega. I don't like Zaeed much either, but I hate vega. Now, I wasn't a huge fan of the other major male human protagonists; Kaiden and Jacob. I felt they were bland an boring. Not BAD, just not up to par with the other characters. Vega is worse. He has no real character, he might as well be cut and pasted from a thousand awful movies, and he's just....so LAME. But that's not the reason I hate him.

I play femshep. If you ever do? Watch Vega's eyes. He stares at your chest all game. They bothered to ANIMATE it. That and he does this little hitting on you thing when he knows not only that (in my case) shepherd is his commanding officer, she has a girlfriend, said girlfriend is an insanely powerful biotic, AND one of the most powerful women in the galaxy....but she is ON the SHIP.

Even if I were so inclined as to do anything with this faux Hispanic cliche that hobbles through the game only able to support the weight of his own muscles because his skull is empty, I would have to be colossally stupid to try it with a girlfriend who could rip me in half flay me alive with her mind A FEW YARDS AWAY.

Edit: spelling. I always miss something.

Fixed it for you. 

Modifié par blooregard, 08 avril 2012 - 06:24 .

[Spartas Husky]

Liked Kaiden... kinda.

Loved the dirty dozen they all had a part. Some small some big but. If I had to be honest

Zaeed could have been worked on a lot more... As well as Kasumi. That lame azz dialogue automaton is boring. hence why I found most conversations boring.

1: Genre
2: Character Focus
3: Narrative coherence.

Bioware dropped th eball in all three core themes of the series.

But the 2nd really bothers me. What bothered me about Kasumi and Zaeed they plastered all over The characters, specially Ashley. yes I was heart broken with her in mass effect 2. But After she comes back to the normandy. She doesn't have any dialogue with me... all it is is hearing her talk. Mostly the same with Vega. The others do it too, but not to the extent of the humans.

CHARACTER FOCUS BIOWARE< WAKE THE FU((&^ up...

that is what I would have said if I had seen ME3 before release. Now I know they are just dumb, and with EA to boot not much to expect.

[blooregard]

DuskRose wrote...

holyDEATHTRAP wrote...

I was really starting to buy into indoc but a thought just occurred to me. If you argue that Shep was partially indoctrinated from start of game and we know it takes a while to build to full blow influence. On Thessia the Prothean VI is all willing to help you until Cerberus shows up claiming that indoctrinated lifeforms are present. So the VI can detect indoctrination and shuts down when present so on Thessia you have a clean bill of health you have little Reaper interaction after this. Also after Cerberus base you interact with VI again and it does say that TIM hacked its security protocols but it still identifies him as being indoctrinated it just couldn't resist helping him but the ability to sense indoctrination still seems present suggesting again a clean bill of health and rallying Earth is all thats left to do making you being indoctrinated very unlikely. The only way to avoid this is if your under full indoctrination for the entire game and none of the game was real so what really happened from Arrival onwards maybe you never left the lab.

It depends on the level of Indoctrination as to whether or not the Prothean VIs can detect who're indoctrinated. Otherwise how would the Protheans have fallen to sleeper agents? 

It also would seem that TIM/Cerberus got the info out of the Prothean VI regardless of anti indoctrination security so anything is possible after Thessia.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Double post :|

Modifié par pirate1802, 08 avril 2012 - 06:42 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

holyDEATHTRAP wrote...

I was really starting to buy into indoc but a thought just occurred to me. If you argue that Shep was partially indoctrinated from start of game and we know it takes a while to build to full blow influence. On Thessia the Prothean VI is all willing to help you until Cerberus shows up claiming that indoctrinated lifeforms are present. So the VI can detect indoctrination and shuts down when present so on Thessia you have a clean bill of health you have little Reaper interaction after this. Also after Cerberus base you interact with VI again and it does say that TIM hacked its security protocols but it still identifies him as being indoctrinated it just couldn't resist helping him but the ability to sense indoctrination still seems present suggesting again a clean bill of health and rallying Earth is all thats left to do making you being indoctrinated very unlikely. The only way to avoid this is if your under full indoctrination for the entire game and none of the game was real so what really happened from Arrival onwards maybe you never left the lab.

This has been brought up and the basic answer is that the VI Indoctrination detection is not flawless something we know for a fact due to conversations with Jarvik.

He says that the Protheans were also brought down by Indoctrinated sleeper agents (and I think the VI mentions that there was a group of Protheans who wanted to control the Reapers who turned out to be Indoctrinated) so clearly they did not have perfect screening for Indoctrinated beeings.

Shepard himself is in accordance to the IT still under a relatively mild case of Indoctrination right up until the end. Despite the dreams and the kid Shepard is still in complete control of his own actions and exhibit none  of the characteristics of a fully Indoctrinated person (such as worhsiping the Reapers or regarding them with awe, believing a certain cause which is in essence beneficial to the Reapers to be the right one) His eyes also dont glow like a lantern in the dark, unless you are full renegade 

But anyway true Indoctrination to the point where the VI would probably detect it does not take place until the last few moments of the game where the Reapers first try to break/tempt Shepards free will (Anderson/TIM confrontation) and when that fails they try to trick him into accepting Indoctrination by presenting a beneficial path for the Reapers as the right one (Control/Synthesis as opposed to Destroy which is presented negatively)

[DirtyPhoenix]

Haha I play femshep too, next time I'll keep an eye out for the chest thing XD.

EDIT: I have Garrus as LI, is that more or less scary than having Liara?

Modifié par pirate1802, 08 avril 2012 - 06:41 .

[holyDEATHTRAP]

DuskRose wrote...

holyDEATHTRAP wrote...

I was really starting to buy into indoc but a thought just occurred to me. If you argue that Shep was partially indoctrinated from start of game and we know it takes a while to build to full blow influence. On Thessia the Prothean VI is all willing to help you until Cerberus shows up claiming that indoctrinated lifeforms are present. So the VI can detect indoctrination and shuts down when present so on Thessia you have a clean bill of health you have little Reaper interaction after this. Also after Cerberus base you interact with VI again and it does say that TIM hacked its security protocols but it still identifies him as being indoctrinated it just couldn't resist helping him but the ability to sense indoctrination still seems present suggesting again a clean bill of health and rallying Earth is all thats left to do making you being indoctrinated very unlikely. The only way to avoid this is if your under full indoctrination for the entire game and none of the game was real so what really happened from Arrival onwards maybe you never left the lab.

It depends on the level of Indoctrination as to whether or not the Prothean VIs can detect who're indoctrinated. Otherwise how would the Protheans have fallen to sleeper agents? 

Its true that level of indoc may matter but you can also argue that cerberus was not true indoc its not reaper controled and seems to be to a lesser degree given that cerberus agents can still talk and have tactics and some degree of thought not seen in reaper forces ( husks for example are pretty mindless) also maybe open to differing opinion but I took the sleeper agents to be early in conflict before they realized the true nature of the reaper threat with their ability to sense each other by touch you would think indoc would leave a pretty unmistakable biological marker.

[Lyria]

Hey GBGriffin,
While normally I'd leave well enough alone, but man that comment about arguing with creationist a few pages back about god was pretty funny.
And its also a good and apt metaphor for how the anti and pro IT people have argued back and forth.
Its sad we are all clinging onto shreds of tweets and reading and rereading into PR statements.

But DuskRose is right about being able to apply IT to the other endings and people being able to play any extra content.
A post on page 1313 (I think) by Arian contained good ideas for how the endings could work with IT.

[holyDEATHTRAP]

pirate1802 wrote...

Haha I play femshep too, next time I'll keep an eye out for the chest thing XD.

EDIT: I have Garrus as LI, is that more or less scary than having Liara?

Definately more scary!!!

[GBGriffin]

protognosis wrote...

Hey GBGriffin,
While normally I'd leave well enough alone, but man that comment about arguing with creationist a few pages back about god was pretty funny.
And its also a good and apt metaphor for how the anti and pro IT people have argued back and forth.
Its sad we are all clinging onto shreds of tweets and reading and rereading into PR statements.

But DuskRose is right about being able to apply IT to the other endings and people being able to play any extra content.
A post on page 1313 (I think) by Arian contained good ideas for how the endings could work with IT.

Haha, thanks.

In one of the threads I created to show off my awful artistic skills with a flowchart, people actually presented some genuinely cool ideas for how to implement IT so that all players received roughly the same amount of content. The thing is, even though they generally shared a common theme...they were also different from one another.

I guess that would be one of my biggest issues. People want BioWare to support "the theory"...but there isn't, imo, a unified one if people are posting their own individual ideas for how to implement the IT. The common element is that Shepard is indoctrinated at the ending...but people are even disagreeing where the rapid indoctrination actually takes place, or if it's even rapid. Because the theory in general seems to vary from person to person with common, but different, elements, so does the opinion of how it should be implemented. It seems like even though a consensus can be reached, someone will then bring up a different, albeit similar, opinion and argue that it is the "better" interpretation.

Again, thanks for directing my attention to Arian's post...I'll make sure to read it. There are good methods of implementation, and even though I personally would be disappointed if they backed the IT....if the implementation was good, I could live with it. It just seems like people have their own idea for how to make it work, and not a unified one that BioWare could support as easily as people think they could.

*edit* Just a smaller point as well: if IT is supported, it would force people to reasses their choices, which some of them actually seem content to make right now. Again, some people support Synthesis and Control as they are right now. I personally don't agree with them, but some make valid points as to why their Shep would choose them. IT would basically reframe all of these choices, and the people who originally picked, say, Control and like it as is would then have to ask themselves "Would I like my Shep to become indoctrinated?"

TBH, I don't think anyone, regardless of their current choice, actually wants their Shep to become indoctrinated. I believe that even true Renegade players would want their Shep to retain his or her individuality, not become a Reaper slave. To me, Destroy would still feel a bit forced...but, again, if they could actually come up with a way to make it work for those non-Destroy choosing players, I'd be more supportive of it.

Modifié par GBGriffin, 08 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

[Domanese]

I think its high time we start perhaps narrowing down things to cement the theory into the most concrete form? Yes? Maybe?

[Lyria]

No problem....it could be 1213....or 1333.....this forum loves fast when I'm asleep.
Actually I think there is a link in his signature.

At some point I'm going to apply my writing skills and put together the info from this thread into a coherent essay. If I can successfully argue that the Kensington Stone is authentic I should be able to argue in a balanced way for Indoctrination....right?

[Lyria]

Haha...meant moves fast but I guess we love fast also.

[GBGriffin]

Domanese wrote...

I think its high time we start perhaps narrowing down things to cement the theory into the most concrete form? Yes? Maybe?

I think that would be a good idea, although I'm pretty sure they've already come up with a plan of some kind since they made an announcement.

If anything, take some of the individual interpretations and refine them into a general suggestion for implementation. Create an updated OP with clarifications of the theory and clean up some of the "evidence" that maybe doesn't support the theory that well.

If it was a bit more polished, and there was a general agreement on how to make it work rather than each poster's opinion on how to make it work...I think it'd be easier for them to support (though, again, I get the feeling they've made their decision on what they'll do, but at least it would help pass the time )

[nullobject]

Could someone knowledgeable about the orthodox IT position maybe comment on my outstanding question in another thread?