57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Vigil_N7]

Question for the Indoctrination Theorists - If the theory is true, do you think Bioware would be right in limiting the choice of the player?

I ask this because for Indoctrination Theorists, control/synthesis is actually a reaper trap that results in shepard submitting to indoctrination and thus allowing the cycle to continue.

Do you think its fair to reduce choice and pidgeon Mass Effect players into one ending? An argument for many retakers is that our choices do not matter, do you really believe the answer to that is to reduce the choices we can make even further?

Right now, the three options have both pros and cons that make it a hard decision to make, there is no reason to have this choice if the only result is either shepard breaking indoctrination (destroy) or submitting to it (control/synthesis)

[IronSabbath88]

I have a hard time seeing Harbinger being bossed around by another AI. He seems very self aware and arrogant to have that kind of notion. Look at the way he controlled the Collectors, used them as his slaves. That's the same reaper that is supposedly controlled and used as a slave?

Yeah, not bloody likely.

[Kyzee]

And bumping this before the anger gets out of hand. 

Kyzee wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

@ kyzee

Lol, yes, friends. My apologies for misunderstanding you.

In closing, for now, I'd just like to apologize for beginning to lose my cool and just state why it's fairly easy to get irritated over this from my perspective : arguing against this theory is, at its core, arguing against faith. I am not a great debater, and I don't know how to argue against faith, or if it's even possible.

People have faith that the IT is true, that it was planned or that they'll just run with it. Faith of any kind is deeply personal and I believe that only the person who holds it can decide to change it based on whatever they feel is appropriate.

If this faith in BioWare lets you appreciate the series again, that's great. I'd just caution you to brace yourself for the possibility of disappointment. Please, don't adopt the "IT or nothing else" mentality.

"arguing against this theory is, at its core, arguing against faith" 

wow. just wow. and to think that for moment i didnt belive you were a troll. 

you realize how weak your argument are dont you? I could easily trun around (ingore all the evidence) and say that all IT disbelivers are grasping at straws on bioware bieng crappy writers, which we know is not the case (Kotor)

I will repost what I just wrote:

"You know, the fact of the matter is that both IT supporters and anti-IT supporters are, to a degree, trying to prove negatives to each other. IT supports are trying to show that the endings as is aren't real, and anti-IT supporters are trying to show that IT isn't true. Not enviable positions to be in for either party."

This can easily been mistaken for the opinions on both sides being a matter of faith. They're not; they're just difficult (if not poor) positions to argue from.

Also, in case nobody has noticed ::snort::, people tend to get very emotional when discussing IT, something that we really should avoid. I honestly understand why GB in particular gets a bit . . . emphatic when expressing his views: he's been attacked relentlessly since showing up. And he's not a bad guy! He just has his own opinion, as he's entitled to, and has every right to express it. I don't want to see this forum be only welcome to people who believe in IT, and non-believers are shouted out. Debate is a good thing, so long as it's done respectfully.

And with that . . . well, if I could figure out how to post the Thresher M'aaaaaaaaw pic, I would. <3

[OdanUrr]

balance5050 wrote...

LOL at this:

"18. Read the codex entry/listen to the Rachni Queen

I did. What's next? "

You don't even have any comments on it!?!? You're not very good at this debate thing are you?

I see you're having a good time. I wrote that because #18 has been used by many people as justification IT is true. I've watched ACAVYOS' videos and read several threads (at this point, several hundred posts) on IT. A codex entry or the Rachni queen's words are not proof of anything by itself. They should have instead been used to reinforce the theory rather than saying, "just read the codex entry, it's obvious."

[llbountyhunter]

GBGriffin wrote...

@ llbountyhunter

Would arguing against belief or hope be better terminology? Was it just a poor choice of words?

What would you call the belief in IT when it still, at its very best, fan speculation?

no because it has reasonable evidence supporting it.

I would say IT is a plausible theory.

[GBGriffin]

@ kyzee

Fair enough. I'll leave this alone (my phone us nearly dead anyways) so that the thread may proceed in a new direction.

[IronSabbath88]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

Question for the Indoctrination Theorists - If the theory is true, do you think Bioware would be right in limiting the choice of the player?

I ask this because for Indoctrination Theorists, control/synthesis is actually a reaper trap that results in shepard submitting to indoctrination and thus allowing the cycle to continue.

Do you think its fair to reduce choice and pidgeon Mass Effect players into one ending? An argument for many retakers is that our choices do not matter, do you really believe the answer to that is to reduce the choices we can make even further?

Right now, the three options have both pros and cons that make it a hard decision to make, there is no reason to have this choice if the only result is either shepard breaking indoctrination (destroy) or submitting to it (control/synthesis)

Here's how I view it.. even if you pick one of the two bad ones, you can still win the fight, but you'll have a much harder time. I think EMS and War Assets will play a lot on that. You might see some actual scenes of Shepard having to fight off the indoctrination taint, and who knows maybe at the end he has to sacrifice himself to protect others because he can't fight it any longer.

I'm still not sure if Control or Synthesis would be the worst option. That's up for debate I think. But think of it like Saren and Benezia, you're constantly fighting off the Reapers hold and if you have high EMS, it's possible to still win the fight and beat the indoctrination. If not, well, you're screwed.

But that's not to say Destroy is completley good, if you don't have enough assets to win there, you get beaten too, there's just no reaper hold.

That's my take on it anyway. I think it could make for an interesting scenario. Besides, BioWare allows you to replay that part of the Citadel mission (or do the entire Cerberus/Earth part over again if you wish) so it's not like you couldn't change your mind.

[n00bsauce2010]

You realize that bioware presents a correct choice in the extended cut as well.
Bioware reps have said that the only way shepard will be united with his LI is if he lives.. hence.. the destroy ending with highest EMS. Therefore forcing the player to make that decision.. I'm pretty sure most players are going to do that.

Theory or not... player choice is already limited.

[balance5050]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

You realize that bioware presents a correct choice in the extended cut as well.
Bioware reps have said that the only way shepard will be united with his LI is if he lives.. hence.. the destroy ending with highest EMS. Therefore forcing the player to make that decision.. I'm pretty sure most players are going to do that.

Theory or not... player choice is already limited.

[Chief Commander]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

Question for the Indoctrination Theorists - If the theory is true, do you think Bioware would be right in limiting the choice of the player?

I ask this because for Indoctrination Theorists, control/synthesis is actually a reaper trap that results in shepard submitting to indoctrination and thus allowing the cycle to continue.

Do you think its fair to reduce choice and pidgeon Mass Effect players into one ending? An argument for many retakers is that our choices do not matter, do you really believe the answer to that is to reduce the choices we can make even further?

Right now, the three options have both pros and cons that make it a hard decision to make, there is no reason to have this choice if the only result is either shepard breaking indoctrination (destroy) or submitting to it (control/synthesis)

When choosing Synthesis/Control you could also break free if you romanced someone continuously, everyone survived the suicide mission, etc.

You can make up multiple things where you control an indoctrinated Shepard potentially killing some of your friends, but still succumbing to "defeat", because your EMS is too high and the Reapers get destroyed anyway. The possibilities are nearly endless.

[lex0r11]

Kyzee wrote...

[...]

And with that . . . well, if I could figure out how to post the Thresher M'aaaaaaaaw pic, I would. <3

My motivational senses tingled!





Group hug everybody! Or Liara will flay you with her mind. No, really.

Modifié par lex0r11, 08 avril 2012 - 05:06 .

[Sammuthegreat]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

Question for the Indoctrination Theorists - If the theory is true, do you think Bioware would be right in limiting the choice of the player?

I ask this because for Indoctrination Theorists, control/synthesis is actually a reaper trap that results in shepard submitting to indoctrination and thus allowing the cycle to continue.

Do you think its fair to reduce choice and pidgeon Mass Effect players into one ending? An argument for many retakers is that our choices do not matter, do you really believe the answer to that is to reduce the choices we can make even further?

Right now, the three options have both pros and cons that make it a hard decision to make, there is no reason to have this choice if the only result is either shepard breaking indoctrination (destroy) or submitting to it (control/synthesis)

This has been brought up quite a lot - check out the two links in this post from a few hours ago. Both of them show different possible solutions to this problem. The IT doesn't rule out the finale continuing regardless of which colour you picked.

NB. The rest of the post is irrelevant as it contributed to a discussion from earlier, I'm just pointing out the two links in the post.

[taliefer]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

taliefer wrote...

even if IT is true, the ending is horrible. even if you pick the destroy option, and fight off indoctrination....the reapers are kicking everyones ass and shepard wakes up severly injured in a pile of rubble. and thats how the mass effect trilogy ends. i dont get why this is so popular. its only slightly better in that it explains all the gaping plot holes and circular logic. the ending still sucks

Who says they're kicking everyone's ass? Wouldn't that depend on your assets?

you would think it would. but the reapers were slaughtering everyone on earth from all the signs we are given via radio calls in the earth segment, while  making our way to the beam up to the citadel.

and even then...they released the final game and were going to rely on dlc to give the true ending? thats....wow. thatd be one shady move on biowares part. but at this point, i just want the ending to make some kind, any kind, of sense.

[IronSabbath88]

taliefer wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

taliefer wrote...

even if IT is true, the ending is horrible. even if you pick the destroy option, and fight off indoctrination....the reapers are kicking everyones ass and shepard wakes up severly injured in a pile of rubble. and thats how the mass effect trilogy ends. i dont get why this is so popular. its only slightly better in that it explains all the gaping plot holes and circular logic. the ending still sucks

Who says they're kicking everyone's ass? Wouldn't that depend on your assets?

you would think it would. but the reapers were slaughtering everyone on earth from all the signs we are given via radio calls in the earth segment, while  making our way to the beam up to the citadel.

and even then...they released the final game and were going to rely on dlc to give the true ending? thats....wow. thatd be one shady move on biowares part. but at this point, i just want the ending to make some kind, any kind, of sense.

If it's free, why are you complaining?

[Silasqtx]

http://social.biowar...06/polls/31722/

It's not the "perfect" place to post it, but..

[Vigil_N7]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

You realize that bioware presents a correct choice in the extended cut as well.
Bioware reps have said that the only way shepard will be united with his LI is if he lives.. hence.. the destroy ending with highest EMS. Therefore forcing the player to make that decision.. I'm pretty sure most players are going to do that.

Theory or not... player choice is already limited.

Limited if you wish to re-unite with your love interest. 

Personally, if it prevents genocide and bioware does allow shepard to control the reapers, then I'll happily pick control, even if that means Shepard doesn't get a cute little scene with his love interest. 

I'll be pleased for the people who like the IT if it turns out to be true, but not if they make it so destroy is the only viable option. 

Its funny, I orginally picked destroy and would again if I didn't know anything of what happens afterwards, so if destroy was extended to be the best possible ending I would have been satisfied, and I HATED the idea of bioware killing of Shepard uneccessarily. 

But now after seeing the other two endings, I find them both satisfying enough that if bioware took them or changed them enough so destroy was seen as the primary option,  I'd feel like they would be making a cheap mistake and it'd be a bit of a cop-out. 

No one wants to Meta-game Mass Effect, but who is going to want to end the trilogy on a depressing note when there are more positive alternatives? At least right now you can pick any of the 3 and be happy with the choice you've made. 

[Kyzee]

lex0r11 wrote...

Kyzee wrote...

[...]

And with that . . . well, if I could figure out how to post the Thresher M'aaaaaaaaw pic, I would. <3

My motivational senses tingled!





Group hug everybody! Or Liara will flay you with her mind. No, really.

YAY! Lex0r11 to the rescue! Thanks! 

[taliefer]

its free now, after the outrage. you really think they planned on releasing a half assed, unfinished ending to their flagship game, then planned on releasing dlc for free to fix it? i dont buy that.

dont get me wrong, im glad they are doing something. what im saying, is if IT is true and what bioware intended as the interpration of the ending...its still bad. and i dont see how they could not have expected outrage if that is the case

[Rifneno]

GBGriffin wrote...

In closing, for now, I'd just like to apologize for beginning to lose my cool and just state why it's fairly easy to get irritated over this from my perspective : arguing against this theory is, at its core, arguing against faith. I am not a great debater, and I don't know how to argue against faith, or if it's even possible.

People have faith that the IT is true, that it was planned or that they'll just run with it. Faith of any kind is deeply personal and I believe that only the person who holds it can decide to change it based on whatever they feel is appropriate.

If this faith in BioWare lets you appreciate the series again, that's great. I'd just caution you to brace yourself for the possibility of disappointment. Please, don't adopt the "IT or nothing else" mentality.

You keep saying "faith". This isn't faith. Faith is absolute belief in someone or something without evidence that it is what you believe. Most if not all IT proponents are well aware that there is a possibility we're wrong. It's not an absolute belief. Second, we do have evidence. Much more than you do. I can only speak for myself but I arrived at this conclusion based on the evidence, not in spite of it.

This is logical deduction, not faith.

balance5050 wrote...

LOL at this:

"18. Read the codex entry/listen to the Rachni Queen

I did. What's next? "

You don't even have any comments on it!?!? You're not very good at this debate thing are you?

No, he's certainly not. My favorite part though was pretending ME2's beginning with Shepard getting spaced wearing a suit and then spending 2 years being rebuilt from a puddle of meat to ME3's Shepard surviving being hit with a weapon that can take down a dreadnought, then being on a space station that explodes without protective gear, then shrugging off the murderous vaccuum of space followed by re-entry into Earth's atmosphere, then a what, 200,000 foot fall and somehow magically appearing under the rubble rather than on top of it. Yeah... no. Just ****ing no.

Vigil_N7 wrote...

Question for the Indoctrination Theorists - If the theory is true, do you think Bioware would be right in limiting the choice of the player?

I don't know, is it fair that Shepard can't survive playing a game of hide the claymore with Morinth even after she tells him he can?

[balance5050]

 "if IT is true and what bioware intended as the interpration of the ending...its still bad."

That is a very nice opinion you have there, personally I love this twist ending.

Modifié par balance5050, 08 avril 2012 - 05:17 .

[Rifneno]

taliefer wrote...

its free now, after the outrage. you really think they planned on releasing a half assed, unfinished ending to their flagship game, then planned on releasing dlc for free to fix it? i dont buy that.

And we're the conspiracy theorists? 

[Sammuthegreat]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

I'll be pleased for the people who like the IT if it turns out to be true, but not if they make it so destroy is the only viable option.

I agree it would be a shame to force people to pick Destroy, especially as any indoctrination attempt has not been explicitly revealed by that point, meaning that new players would be forced into a lucky dip with 2/3 chance of losing. I admit though that I'll only ever pick Destroy (with my main Shep anyway) so it affects me less.

Vigil_N7 wrote...

At least right now you can pick any of the 3 and be happy with the choice you've made. 

...really?! Wow, fair enough. The whole controversy arose from the fact everyone was miserable and angry whichever choice they made, because all 3 were terrible. If you liked the ending, then fair play to you, but you certainly won't be in the majority, especially not on this thread.

[IronSabbath88]

I wouldn't say half assed and unfinished if they intended IT... it was just a cliffhanger that was rectified by later free DLC.

Even still, I can sorta see where you're coming from. Yes it probably wasn't the best move and I guarantee it won't happen again.

[Sammuthegreat]

taliefer wrote...

its free now, after the outrage. you really think they planned on releasing a half assed, unfinished ending to their flagship game, then planned on releasing dlc for free to fix it? i dont buy that.

dont get me wrong, im glad they are doing something. what im saying, is if IT is true and what bioware intended as the interpration of the ending...its still bad. and i dont see how they could not have expected outrage if that is the case

I disagree strongly that it would still be bad, in fact I think it would be one of the most ballsy and inventive twists that any form of entertainment media has ever seen. [EDIT: Assuming they got the proper ending right!]

...However I definitely agree that they've messed up bigtime on the PR front. I don't care whether they're employing "perfect PR tactics" or whatever - it's got to the stage now where they're just stringing their fans along. Fans who are only upset in the first place because they love the game so much.

Modifié par Sammuthegreat, 08 avril 2012 - 05:22 .

[taliefer]

Rifneno wrote...

taliefer wrote...

its free now, after the outrage. you really think they planned on releasing a half assed, unfinished ending to their flagship game, then planned on releasing dlc for free to fix it? i dont buy that.

And we're the conspiracy theorists? 

thats what im asking, because if IT is true, it would mean the only ending that doesnt end in shepard being indoctrinated is the destroy option, where shepard wakes up. which means theres still a fight with the reapers going on, so we really dont see an "ending" to the conflict of the entire trilogy. thats a good ending for some people?