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[Vigil_N7]

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Vigil_N7 wrote...

Question for the Indoctrination Theorists - If the theory is true, do you think Bioware would be right in limiting the choice of the player?

I ask this because for Indoctrination Theorists, control/synthesis is actually a reaper trap that results in shepard submitting to indoctrination and thus allowing the cycle to continue.

Do you think its fair to reduce choice and pidgeon Mass Effect players into one ending? An argument for many retakers is that our choices do not matter, do you really believe the answer to that is to reduce the choices we can make even further?

Right now, the three options have both pros and cons that make it a hard decision to make, there is no reason to have this choice if the only result is either shepard breaking indoctrination (destroy) or submitting to it (control/synthesis)

This has been brought up quite a lot - check out the two links in this post from a few hours ago. Both of them show different possible solutions to this problem. The IT doesn't rule out the finale continuing regardless of which colour you picked.

NB. The rest of the post is irrelevant as it contributed to a discussion from earlier, I'm just pointing out the two links in the post.

Just checked out your version and I like it a lot. Keeps all three options viable, while making EMS vital and important. And while the endings won't be vastly different (shepard succeeds or becomes indoctrinated, plus or minus a couple of squadmates) it makes the choices you made throughout the game meaningful through EMS. 

I've been hostile to the Indoctrination Theory in the past, but its never because I thought the implications story-wise were bad, if anything, ignoring the whole unfinished ending thing, story-wise its brilliant and maintains the integrity of the Mass Effect universe and if you use its premise, the game itself does not have to be changed, only expanded upon. 

My issue is with some of the evidence being used (such as the trees in the rush to the beam) and with believers making it out to be some sort of genious move by bioware. I still don't think its intended nor will it be added upon in the extended cut, but minus the whole bioware releasing an unfinished product, if the theory was right then it'll only be a good thing for the story (note: story, not for bioware, that'd open up a whole new can or worms)

[UrgentArchengel]

We'll know come summer. Let's see what's in store for us "whiny, entitled" fans. Lol.

[Vigil_N7]

Sammuthegreat wrote...


...really?! Wow, fair enough. The whole controversy arose from the fact everyone was miserable and angry whichever choice they made, because all 3 were terrible. If you liked the ending, then fair play to you, but you certainly won't be in the majority, especially not on this thread.

When I say happy with the choice, I mean more happy with the fact that any of the three choices are viable and will save the galaxy, or at the very least will end the reaper threat. 

[refuse81]

llbountyhunter wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

@ llbountyhunter

My point is that theorists are doing that already

As for it being a matter of faith, what do you call believing that something which hasn't been expressly confirmed or denied and hoping that it's true? How is that not having faith in something.

As for kotor, you have faith in BioWare that they're planning such a great reveal. A feeling. A belief. Faith.

Call me a troll and feel free to report me as such. I don't mind and won't take offense.

false logic: if you see a rock fall on the gound after you throw it, and exepect it to happen a second time.... is that faith?

by your reasoning EVERYTHING from quantom mechanics to black holes is faith

No, the dropping a rock experiment is empirical evidence. Quantum physics and black holes are based on maths and physics based on other empirical evidence. When has the Indoctrination theory been proven once, exactly? IT is about faith in what was a terrible ending was really a clever ploy to keep us speculating, making sense where there were plot holes.
We've heard from Bioware that they're fine with the ending, that they want to clarify it and how rebuilding relays is possible, how people aren't starving and FTL travel is a possible replacement while the relays are down. In the indoc movies the straws are being grasped so hard.. 

-No one helping the boy aboard the shuttle. Sloppiness. The scenes also show two different personsstanding near the boy aboard the shuttle.-Vigil can detect 'signs of indoctrination' and the Thessia VI only reacts when Kai Leng shows up.-Radio chatter about the beam. Of course they would say that. No one had reached the beam by that point.Shepard is only now slowly awakening.-Why would no one get to the beam now that Harbinger is gone? Because they've all been wiped out, like they say on comms.-Shrubs and trees around? Yes, they were there before Harbinger hits you, Iv'e checked.-Pistol has infinite ammo? Of course, it would be silly to have ammo lying around at this time, or run out of ammo.
And so on. 

[balance5050]

refuse81 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

@ llbountyhunter

My point is that theorists are doing that already

As for it being a matter of faith, what do you call believing that something which hasn't been expressly confirmed or denied and hoping that it's true? How is that not having faith in something.

As for kotor, you have faith in BioWare that they're planning such a great reveal. A feeling. A belief. Faith.

Call me a troll and feel free to report me as such. I don't mind and won't take offense.

false logic: if you see a rock fall on the gound after you throw it, and exepect it to happen a second time.... is that faith?

by your reasoning EVERYTHING from quantom mechanics to black holes is faith

No, the dropping a rock experiment is empirical evidence. Quantum physics and black holes are based on maths and physics based on other empirical evidence. When has the Indoctrination theory been proven once, exactly? IT is about faith in what was a terrible ending was really a clever ploy to keep us speculating, making sense where there were plot holes.
We've heard from Bioware that they're fine with the ending, that they want to clarify it and how rebuilding relays is possible, how people aren't starving and FTL travel is a possible replacement while the relays are down. In the indoc movies the straws are being grasped so hard.. 

-No one helping the boy aboard the shuttle. Sloppiness. The scenes also show two different personsstanding near the boy aboard the shuttle.-Vigil can detect 'signs of indoctrination' and the Thessia VI only reacts when Kai Leng shows up.-Radio chatter about the beam. Of course they would say that. No one had reached the beam by that point.Shepard is only now slowly awakening.-Why would no one get to the beam now that Harbinger is gone? Because they've all been wiped out, like they say on comms.-Shrubs and trees around? Yes, they were there before Harbinger hits you, Iv'e checked.-Pistol has infinite ammo? Of course, it would be silly to have ammo lying around at this time, or run out of ammo.
And so on. 

LOL! and the Shepard alive scene? Was that added because
 laziness?

You're a funny guy.

[magica87]

Hi everyone! I would just like to say a few simple things.
I love writing and I'm writing a story for a fantasy book that I hope to publish. I agree with everyone and explain why:

- The "poetic license" allows you to make and change anything you want and Bioware have this opportunity and by "creative" of stories I understand their desire to surprise everyone with something epic.

-I do not agree on how they did it. While I write change again and again to get to have a job that satisfies me fully, which will certainly have done them and for this reason I believe that professionals who are definitely had a better alternative. We all would be well to wait maybe two or three months longer but have a worthy ending.

-I believe in theory INDOC and if I were the author of Mass Effect would be angry at not having thought! In short I would really, it's an attractive and viable (and maybe I'll make a little thought for my stories!)

-I also agree with those who say that that exists is the real ending, because the ending is beautiful in itself (leaving aside the narrative gaps) the first time I finished I was left without words, music and the scenes are very touching and to me left a mixture of sadness and hope and believe it is just what they wanted.

-The problem lies in the fact that a similar final is valid for a movie or a book not for a game (from my point of view of course)! a game for me is the union of a book and a movie: the first allows you to put yourself into the character and the second gives you a visual aid. Mass effect is sublime in all for everything but wanting to close the adventures of Shepard was inevitable that there would be a better ending (not necessarily mean a real happy ending) I would have preferred a real tearjerker ending that to give me the answers on the last things left outstanding.
The affection that was created around the galaxy ME and Shepard was Bioware for a double-edged sword. They had to allow all fans to break away from Shep less violently (my thought).

That said, if I author or producer of a book or game I get so many passionate criticism of my work I would be flattered, simply because it means that I have passed the true emotions of my audience. If, thanks to suggestions from my fans I can create something that really stays in the story then I should really think about looking for a compromise between their creativity and the needs of the public (referred to bioware)

sorry for the long post, although my English sucks.

[llbountyhunter]

refuse81 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

@ llbountyhunter

My point is that theorists are doing that already

As for it being a matter of faith, what do you call believing that something which hasn't been expressly confirmed or denied and hoping that it's true? How is that not having faith in something.

As for kotor, you have faith in BioWare that they're planning such a great reveal. A feeling. A belief. Faith.

Call me a troll and feel free to report me as such. I don't mind and won't take offense.

false logic: if you see a rock fall on the gound after you throw it, and exepect it to happen a second time.... is that faith?

by your reasoning EVERYTHING from quantom mechanics to black holes is faith

No, the dropping a rock experiment is empirical evidence. Quantum physics and black holes are based on maths and physics based on other empirical evidence. When has the Indoctrination theory been proven once, exactly? IT is about faith in what was a terrible ending was really a clever ploy to keep us speculating, making sense where there were plot holes.
We've heard from Bioware that they're fine with the ending, that they want to clarify it and how rebuilding relays is possible, how people aren't starving and FTL travel is a possible replacement while the relays are down. In the indoc movies the straws are being grasped so hard.. 

-No one helping the boy aboard the shuttle. Sloppiness. The scenes also show two different personsstanding near the boy aboard the shuttle.-Vigil can detect 'signs of indoctrination' and the Thessia VI only reacts when Kai Leng shows up.-Radio chatter about the beam. Of course they would say that. No one had reached the beam by that point.Shepard is only now slowly awakening.-Why would no one get to the beam now that Harbinger is gone? Because they've all been wiped out, like they say on comms.-Shrubs and trees around? Yes, they were there before Harbinger hits you, Iv'e checked.-Pistol has infinite ammo? Of course, it would be silly to have ammo lying around at this time, or run out of ammo.
And so on. 

thank you for pointing out the weak parts of IT here, dont mention the strong evidence at all such as  shapard waking up on eath: using logic (not faith) one can assume that he never left earth, and he couldnt of re-enterd like in me2 because in me2 all his armor was intact and in me3 he didnt even has his helmet on.

using the scientific theory; we can com to the conlusion that shepard remained on the ground the enitre time, and form a hypothosis that the events happened in his mind in the form of IT.

[refuse81]

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! and the Shepard alive scene? Was that added because
 laziness?

You're a funny guy.

You've formed a religion here.

[Sovereign Skyguardian]

refuse81 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! and the Shepard alive scene? Was that added because
 laziness?

You're a funny guy.

You've formed a religion here.

Your name was chosen wisely it seems.

@lex0r we need Liara! NOW!

[balance5050]

refuse81 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! and the Shepard alive scene? Was that added because
 laziness?

You're a funny guy.

You've formed a religion here.

:innocent:

[Sammuthegreat]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...


...really?! Wow, fair enough. The whole controversy arose from the fact everyone was miserable and angry whichever choice they made, because all 3 were terrible. If you liked the ending, then fair play to you, but you certainly won't be in the majority, especially not on this thread.

When I say happy with the choice, I mean more happy with the fact that any of the three choices are viable and will save the galaxy, or at the very least will end the reaper threat. 

[ARGH stupid internet always cuts out just when I click "Submit" so I lose what I wrote. 2nd time lucky...]

Right, that makes more sense. I'm glad you like what I suggested, although clearly it'd need a lot more specific content (i.e. a script ). I would be annoyed if we ended up being forced down one path if we wanted a happy ending, but that's not BioWare's style so I'm not too worried. Even the current endings, when taken at face value, are three thematically distinct choices, even if the cutscenes are cut-and-paste jobs.

[lex0r11]

Sovereign Skyguardian wrote...

refuse81 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! and the Shepard alive scene? Was that added because
 laziness?

You're a funny guy.

You've formed a religion here.

Your name was chosen wisely it seems.

@lex0r we need Liara! NOW!

Trollbuster comin' through, what is going on here?

If Liara has to come in here more than once a day, this is going to hurt people.

Modifié par lex0r11, 08 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

[Rifneno]

refuse81 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! and the Shepard alive scene? Was that added because
 laziness?

You're a funny guy.

You've formed a religion here.

An utterly transparent attempt to hide your lack of a decent counterpoint by provoking an inflammatory response.  Not working.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Rifneno wrote...


I don't know, is it fair that Shepard can't survive playing a game of hide the claymore with Morinth even after she tells him he can?

Lulz

[Stumpykins]

hiya people.

i was talking with a friend earlier today, if the extended cut ending isnt the indoc theory,
i dont understand how they can expand on it, even if they say that the galaxy has the scientific knowledge to rebuild/repair the mass relays, wont it be the one in the local cluster, (where earth is isnt it) that can be done. The point i am making is wont it take years if not decades to travel to other systems to build new relays there.

so again kinda dont see how they can expand, without leaving the ending still bleak and pointlessly stupid.

[IronSabbath88]

And that's the point of it all, the ending just as it is doesn't make any sense at all. Everything they showed you during that scene points to it being quite the mindtrip.

I don't care what the deniers say, as far as I can see a lot of the logical explanations are more far fetched than this actual theory.

BioWare IS under damage control, damage control because their master plan may have just been thrown around the internet like a wildfire.

[Sovereign Skyguardian]

lex0r11 wrote...

Sovereign Skyguardian wrote...

refuse81 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

LOL! and the Shepard alive scene? Was that added because
 laziness?

You're a funny guy.

You've formed a religion here.

Your name was chosen wisely it seems.

@lex0r we need Liara! NOW!

Trollbuster comin' through, what is going on here?

If Liara has to come in here more than once a day, this is going to hurt people.

Always do.

[llbountyhunter]

llbountyhunter wrote...

refuse81 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

@ llbountyhunter

My point is that theorists are doing that already

As for it being a matter of faith, what do you call believing that something which hasn't been expressly confirmed or denied and hoping that it's true? How is that not having faith in something.

As for kotor, you have faith in BioWare that they're planning such a great reveal. A feeling. A belief. Faith.

Call me a troll and feel free to report me as such. I don't mind and won't take offense.

false logic: if you see a rock fall on the gound after you throw it, and exepect it to happen a second time.... is that faith?

by your reasoning EVERYTHING from quantom mechanics to black holes is faith

No, the dropping a rock experiment is empirical evidence. Quantum physics and black holes are based on maths and physics based on other empirical evidence. When has the Indoctrination theory been proven once, exactly? IT is about faith in what was a terrible ending was really a clever ploy to keep us speculating, making sense where there were plot holes.
We've heard from Bioware that they're fine with the ending, that they want to clarify it and how rebuilding relays is possible, how people aren't starving and FTL travel is a possible replacement while the relays are down. In the indoc movies the straws are being grasped so hard.. 

-No one helping the boy aboard the shuttle. Sloppiness. The scenes also show two different personsstanding near the boy aboard the shuttle.-Vigil can detect 'signs of indoctrination' and the Thessia VI only reacts when Kai Leng shows up.-Radio chatter about the beam. Of course they would say that. No one had reached the beam by that point.Shepard is only now slowly awakening.-Why would no one get to the beam now that Harbinger is gone? Because they've all been wiped out, like they say on comms.-Shrubs and trees around? Yes, they were there before Harbinger hits you, Iv'e checked.-Pistol has infinite ammo? Of course, it would be silly to have ammo lying around at this time, or run out of ammo.
And so on. 

thank you for pointing out the weak parts of IT here, dont mention the strong evidence at all- such as  shapard waking up on earth: using logic (not faith) one can assume that he never left earth, and he couldnt of re-enterd like in me2 because in me2 all his armor was intact and in me3 he didnt even has his helmet on.

using the scientific theory; we can come to the conlusion that shepard remained on the ground the enitre time, and form a hypothosis that the end events happened in his mind in the form of IT.

or you can go on believing the current endings as they stand, and explain your squad members showing up on the normandy like this.  
 

damnit hit "quote" instead of "edit"  

[Sire Styx]

To the IT opposers:
If I understand correctly, IT suggests that THIS IS NOT THE END. THE ENDINGS ARE NOT REAL.

So with that in mind, when asking questions about how the IT explains stuff, remember that these endings are not real. So you could have one, two or a million choices for the end, but they may or may not matter when the DLC is released.

So asking "how do you explain this...." or "why did you only get 3 choices...." if it's about the ending can probably be explained by that it's not real.

[IronSabbath88]

Bah, they'll just counter with the fact that it's not real because you would have to change the ending.

Which you wouldn't, IT is an expansion and clarification. Not a change. Change would imply a full scrapping of what we got.

[Sire Styx]

Anyway, this idea has been mentioned before but I don't think it's been discussed really in here. I'm wondering if anyone wants to test this idea? I've elaborated on it below.

For the control ending, the citadel closes, relays are deactivated (but don't explicitly explode like int destroy ending) and joker doesn't turn around.
This doesn't happen in the destroy ending.
I suggest that in the control ending, you are indoctrinated and the citadel is closed just as the reapers wanted it. The relays are deactivated like in every cycle, but are not destroyed (i.e. are fixable). The scene with joker turning around takes place a while later, after picking Shepard up. Shepard is indoctrinated and absent in the control ending so Joker does not turn around.

However, the synthesis ending does not show this and seems the same as the destroy ending.
I'm not sure how to explain this. The synthesis ending must be good then, if my idea is true. But it doesn't fit in with what we already know :S

I'm slightly puzzled by this like, as it seems like a good idea, apart from the synthesis bit!

[NikolaiShade]

Hi, sorry in advance for my english and if it was posted before.

Ok, the more I read Weeks' unofficial interwiev, the more I think BioWare has some serius issues at hand, expecially if they want to explain what happens to the people on the Citadel and the Normandy crash scene.

Regarding the Citadel, Weeks pointed out how the "lore relevant" people are alive in the end. Now in the very end what happens to the Citadel?

Destroy - The arms explode
Control - The arms close
Synthesys - The arms explode

So...how those people should survive is matter of speculation...

Regarding the Normandy crash scene...Joker should have a good reason to leave battle? What reason? Speculations again.

BioWare can basically do four things regarding the endings, at least in my opinion:

1 - Explain the many plotholes, in some cases creating even more plotholes

2 - Redoing the endings completely, and it seems really unlikely if they want to keep their artistic integrity.

3 - Telling us it is their game, so get over it. Since they wanted speculations from everyone this would be the logical solutions, yet they want to clarify, so it is not an option anymore.

4 - Even if they didn't plan IT, they could tell some form of it was their masterplan all along and we could get a "starbrat free" ending, they would keep their artistic integrity and we, the audience, could be pleased.

At this point planned or not IT is still a viable way out and an easy one too, if they want to put aside their pride and regain the trust of their fanbase they could pull this out and, to be honest, I think many of us would pretend IT was their plan all along even if many doubts arise.

Modifié par NikolaiShade, 08 avril 2012 - 06:53 .

[IronSabbath88]

Sire Styx wrote...

Anyway, this idea has been mentioned before but I don't think it's been discussed really in here. I'm wondering if anyone wants to test this idea? I've elaborated on it below.

For the control ending, the citadel closes, relays are deactivated (but don't explicitly explode like int destroy ending) and joker doesn't turn around.
This doesn't happen in the destroy ending.
I suggest that in the control ending, you are indoctrinated and the citadel is closed just as the reapers wanted it. The relays are deactivated like in every cycle, but are not destroyed (i.e. are fixable). The scene with joker turning around takes place a while later, after picking Shepard up. Shepard is indoctrinated and absent in the control ending so Joker does not turn around.

However, the synthesis ending does not show this and seems the same as the destroy ending.
I'm not sure how to explain this. The synthesis ending must be good then, if my idea is true. But it doesn't fit in with what we already know :S

I'm slightly puzzled by this like, as it seems like a good idea, apart from the synthesis bit!

Here's my take, Synthesis turns every organic part synthetic right? Everything is now part reaper code. So why do they need to continue the cycle when everything in the galaxy is now exactly as they want it?

Control, yeah, the cycle continues and they're satisfied but in Synthesis everything has been done for them and there's no need to continue the cycle since all organic life as been "ascended" so to speak.

[Cyberfrog81]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

I have a hard time seeing Harbinger being bossed around by another AI. He seems very self aware and arrogant to have that kind of notion. Look at the way he controlled the Collectors, used them as his slaves. That's the same reaper that is supposedly controlled and used as a slave?

Yeah, not bloody likely.

I don't trust Star Child either. However... both Saren and TIM were self-aware and arrogant individuals. For years they believed they were their own masters, but we know they both ended up as Reaper puppets.

Harbinger's boss would have to be insanely powerful to manipulate every Reaper this way. Maybe he is.

Which reminds me of trying to stop drug trafficking by arresting street dealers. You hardly ever get at the guys at the top organizing the whole thing. Even if you could magically destroy every existing Reaper, if the Manager of the Nightmare Factory remains at large, he can still try to control organic evolution and Shepard's efforts would not impress him too much (personally I doubt the "first organic ever" to meet him part is even true). You could say, wouldn't blowing up the Citadel at least shut him up for good? Maybe. But if we were to accept a god-like thing like him being "real"  to begin with, I don't think it's a stretch to claim that he's only partly existing on the Citadel / the Citadel is only a part of him. Destroying the Citadel might harm him, but he could "grow" back like a weed, as powerful as before, even if it took millions of years. Then somehow he subjugates another super high-tech society and starts another cycle. Because that's how he freaking rolls.

So in this interpretation, Shepard didn't "win" even if he chose the destroy option. Did someone say depressing?

Even if I was right about the above, though (which is doubtful)... still way too many open question, and the ending still clearly does not work. IT offers a way out of the mess that is the ending, making space for a new ending that is worthy of the game and trilogy, but it seems they won't go for it. A shame.

[zakaryzb]

My issue with Patrick Weekes "supposed statement", about the ending is that if it is true, then the "artistic integrity" that is being protected is that of only two people who went out and wrote the ending without the input of the whole team. Thus it isn't Bioware's vision it is just that of those two. If the whole team is like Weekes and doent agree with the ending, I think they should be a label to, at the very least, incorporate IT if it isn't true. Also, I do not understand how you can write an ending to a series as big ad this one and not get input or react to it.