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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#33951
Arian Dynas

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hwf wrote...

Actually, Sammuthegreat - your general idea and Arian Dynas' work are pretty much what I hinted at.
I like them. A lot.

Wink wink nudge nudge Bioware!

Sammuthegreat wrote...

hwf wrote...*snip*

The clue is once you're done with the indoctrination sequence you still have the options you had during the end sequence of the game now...
- Shepard sacrifices oneself Jesus style in attempting to Control the Reapers.
- Shepard sacrifices oneself Satan style and gets incorporated into the Human Reaper because Saren was right afterall and Synthesis is the Endlösung to all suffering. The cycle will be completed with every organic in this cycle being harvested and ascended into a Reaper.
- Shepard annihilates the Reaper tech by triggering the Crucible as it was intended.


I've agreed with most of what you've wrote, but I definitely disagree with this. Half the problem with the ending is that it forces you into 3 choices, which don't feel like enough. The choice itself between R/G/B is one of the most disappointing things about the ending as it stands.

There are far more elegant ways to continue the story after the Indoctrination attempt - for example a general idea suggested by me a while back, or even better this excellent series of custcene screenplays written by Arian Dynas.

EDIT: Forgot to mention also that if the post-Indoctrination section includes a RGB choice exactly like the one in the Indoc sequence, then that creates a new plot hole - how on earth did Shepard know what the Crucible would look like?

Plus it's one of the pieces of evidence integral to IT that the whole post-beam sequence is cobbled together using scenes from Shepard's memory. The setting for the Starchild scene looks remarkably similar to the bottom of the beam where Shepard got hit by Harby's beam - i.e. it's a memory of Shepard's, projected into the Indoc sequence. It wouldn't make any sense if the ACTUAL Catalyst involved the same 3 options.

 

Thank you both for the compliments :)


Though, right now, with The Truth pretty well disproven, I'm starting to lose faith :crying:

And one thing still failing to make sense to me, how in the hell can Bioware claim this DLC will bring clarification, if they are also saying they want people to be able to interpret it how they want to? Unless they're speaking about the ending we have now WITHOUT the context of the extended cut, how can they even continue a series in Mass Effect without adressing that rather large elephant in the room? They'd have to point out whether the Geth (a fan favorite) survived, whether everyone became a hybrid, whether Shepard is a hero or a failure, ect. they'd have to come uip with a solid, canon ending here, and they don't like to do that, they even gave us wiggle room with Karpyshyn stating ANderson became an admiral again because he "Stepped down from his post" if you made him a councilor.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 08 avril 2012 - 11:32 .


#33952
Sire Styx

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Macgummi wrote...

Sire Styx wrote...

I doubt they'll say anything else about the extended cut. If it is IT, they want to keep quiet. If they've realled f**ked up, they'll not want to say much more because they're just digging themselves deeper.

Best case scenario: they keep quiet and then it all turns out it was indoctrination and we were all fooled or whatever. They've planned stuff from the start which they missed out the game so they could fully complete it. When they release the DLC it doesn't just clarify but adds onto the ending and everything becomes clear.

Worst case: They actually don't have a clue what they were doing, all the plot holes and rushed things in ME3 were down to the fact that they don't really care and there was no content planned. Come the summer we get a 5 minute clipshow that doesn't explain anything and actually just makes more plotholes, meaning the original idea of thinking everyone starved on earth/died when the relays exploded made more sense.



I guess you´re right. But even if it turns out IT wasn´t intended by Bioware...They´re going to have a hard time explaining why the hell all the clues were in the game, why they kept telling us to believe in IT and why they literally lied to us before ME3 was released (rachni extremely important, no ABC-ending...)


The no ABC ending thing is because the ending is very vague and you have to use your
Posted Image
in order to work out what happened. That's why they want loads of speculation, because they can't think of an ending and want us to make it up. They can only give us at the most a couple endings, but we can make as many things up as we like :|

(edit: btw, I'm just being very cynical in this post lol. I'm hoping IT is correct)

Modifié par Sire Styx, 08 avril 2012 - 11:27 .


#33953
RealStyli

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Sire Styx wrote...

No offence, but have I said something wrong when I mentioned Quarian synthetic augmentation lol? No reply on twitter or here :(
The only links on google I found was people speculating about it, nothing definite.


Try the Wikia

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Quarian

B)

#33954
Hacedor1566

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RealStyli wrote...

Speaking of trolling:

 Posted Image

Is that supposed to be funny?


Posted Image

Yeah... Very funny... :pinched:

#33955
Arian Dynas

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Hacedor1566 wrote...

RealStyli wrote...

Speaking of trolling:

 Posted Image

Is that supposed to be funny?


*snip*

Yeah... Very funny... :pinched:


... now that's just mean-spirited. Or maybe we're just still kinda raw about it and they're making fun of themselves, idk.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 08 avril 2012 - 11:33 .


#33956
Voodzik

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Macgummi wrote...
I guess you´re right. But even if it turns out IT wasn´t intended by Bioware...They´re going to have a hard time explaining why the hell all the clues were in the game, why they kept telling us to believe in IT and why they literally lied to us before ME3 was released (rachni extremely important, no ABC-ending...)


Well as for all the clues, if you'd never played KoToR before and I told you Malak was the main characters father...or Revan...all the clues are there. That isn't what happens, but the clues are there.

I believe in IT, but at least on that point, we're LOOKING for it now, you know?

#33957
NS Wizdum

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Voodzik wrote...

Macgummi wrote...
I guess you´re right. But even if it turns out IT wasn´t intended by Bioware...They´re going to have a hard time explaining why the hell all the clues were in the game, why they kept telling us to believe in IT and why they literally lied to us before ME3 was released (rachni extremely important, no ABC-ending...)


Well as for all the clues, if you'd never played KoToR before and I told you Malak was the main characters father...or Revan...all the clues are there. That isn't what happens, but the clues are there.

I believe in IT, but at least on that point, we're LOOKING for it now, you know?


The tweet was updated, a fan gave them those folders. The picture was meant to be proof that they actually recieved them.

#33958
Arian Dynas

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Voodzik wrote...

Macgummi wrote...
I guess you´re right. But even if it turns out IT wasn´t intended by Bioware...They´re going to have a hard time explaining why the hell all the clues were in the game, why they kept telling us to believe in IT and why they literally lied to us before ME3 was released (rachni extremely important, no ABC-ending...)


Well as for all the clues, if you'd never played KoToR before and I told you Malak was the main characters father...or Revan...all the clues are there. That isn't what happens, but the clues are there.

I believe in IT, but at least on that point, we're LOOKING for it now, you know?


Yeah... didn't really see any hints for Revan being the MC's FATHER, not even if I went looking for them. The dreams for Revan's final battle are kind of telling, 

#33959
Voodzik

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Arian Dynas wrote...

Voodzik wrote...

Macgummi wrote...
I guess you´re right. But even if it turns out IT wasn´t intended by Bioware...They´re going to have a hard time explaining why the hell all the clues were in the game, why they kept telling us to believe in IT and why they literally lied to us before ME3 was released (rachni extremely important, no ABC-ending...)


Well as for all the clues, if you'd never played KoToR before and I told you Malak was the main characters father...or Revan...all the clues are there. That isn't what happens, but the clues are there.

I believe in IT, but at least on that point, we're LOOKING for it now, you know?

Yeah... didn't really see any hints for Revan being the MC's FATHER, not even if I went looking for them. The dreams
for Revan's final battle are kind of telling, 


All the hints we get are to a "connection" with revan and Malak and how mc is a special case. Those could easily have been Bastilla's memories.:P

#33960
Arian Dynas

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Voodzik wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Voodzik wrote...

Macgummi wrote...
I guess you´re right. But even if it turns out IT wasn´t intended by Bioware...They´re going to have a hard time explaining why the hell all the clues were in the game, why they kept telling us to believe in IT and why they literally lied to us before ME3 was released (rachni extremely important, no ABC-ending...)


Well as for all the clues, if you'd never played KoToR before and I told you Malak was the main characters father...or Revan...all the clues are there. That isn't what happens, but the clues are there.

I believe in IT, but at least on that point, we're LOOKING for it now, you know?

Yeah... didn't really see any hints for Revan being the MC's FATHER, not even if I went looking for them. The dreams
for Revan's final battle are kind of telling, 


All the hints we get are to a "connection" with revan and Malak and how mc is a special case. Those could easily have been Bastilla's memories.:P

 

Which is in fact the explanation they give to you in the beginning! :P

#33961
Sire Styx

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RealStyli wrote...

Sire Styx wrote...

No offence, but have I said something wrong when I mentioned Quarian synthetic augmentation lol? No reply on twitter or here :(
The only links on google I found was people speculating about it, nothing definite.


Try the Wikia

http://masseffect.wi...om/wiki/Quarian

B)


Wow. You know, I could have sworn I checked that before.
I haven't checked it in like a month or something though, so it's not suprising. Doesn't really say much about it though :(
But thank you :)

#33962
ThisOneIsPunny

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ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Macgummi wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Unsure if brought up in the past thousand pages, but this one has just noticed something strange about the Return to Citadel end mission. When you get closer to leaving the hallway full of dead bodies and dripping blood, the color starts to disappear. If you turn around, you can see the hallway before you darken and turn colorless before the doors open to the next hallway. Any thoughts on this?



Is that true or can anyone confirm this? This seems to me like another hint for the IT.


This one has an older sibling working on showing a video of it happening. As well as something else he apparently discovered (potentially just a bug, from how he described it but strange none the less.)


Here it is
http://youtu.be/kZxrOOX-ubU?t=1m21s

Modifié par ThisOneIsPunny, 08 avril 2012 - 11:47 .


#33963
Macgummi

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Voodzik wrote...

Macgummi wrote...
I guess you´re right. But even if it turns out IT wasn´t intended by Bioware...They´re going to have a hard time explaining why the hell all the clues were in the game, why they kept telling us to believe in IT and why they literally lied to us before ME3 was released (rachni extremely important, no ABC-ending...)


Well as for all the clues, if you'd never played KoToR before and I told you Malak was the main characters father...or Revan...all the clues are there. That isn't what happens, but the clues are there.

I believe in IT, but at least on that point, we're LOOKING for it now, you know?



When KoTor came out I was 7 years old (well, at the release-date in Germany I was already 8) and to be honest I never played it since then. :/ But yeah, I know what you mean

#33964
IronSabbath88

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Perhaps the Reapers do this every cycle for the one person who is The Catalyst. Which in this cycle, is Shepard.

Wishful thinking but I can't get that "End of the First Matrix" thing that Mac wrote on his sheet out of my head.

#33965
zakaryzb

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

Perhaps the Reapers do this every cycle for the one person who is The Catalyst. Which in this cycle, is Shepard.

Wishful thinking but I can't get that "End of the First Matrix" thing that Mac wrote on his sheet out of my head.


What exactly are you referring to? Sorry, I don't remember hearing about this.

#33966
Eshaye

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

Perhaps the Reapers do this every cycle for the one person who is The Catalyst. Which in this cycle, is Shepard.

Wishful thinking but I can't get that "End of the First Matrix" thing that Mac wrote on his sheet out of my head.


When I read the leaks in the groups section before launch, this is what I though the ending would have been like. But apparenlty that would have made too much sense... >.> 

#33967
IronSabbath88

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zakaryzb wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Perhaps the Reapers do this every cycle for the one person who is The Catalyst. Which in this cycle, is Shepard.

Wishful thinking but I can't get that "End of the First Matrix" thing that Mac wrote on his sheet out of my head.


What exactly are you referring to? Sorry, I don't remember hearing about this.


The Final Hours app, when they show Mac's writing of how the ending was going to be, he wrote off to the side "End of the First Matrix"

In the end of the Matrix, Neo is revealed to be The One after being led down a path that made it seem like it wasn't him. But ultimately, it was him.

#33968
Humakt83

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I do not understand people who dismiss the indoctrination theory as nothing but wild speculation or grasping at straws. Have they played the trilogy? Indoctrination and mind control is one of the major themes in all three games.

Mass Effect 1:

We learn of the husks. That Matriarch Benezia was indoctrinated, Saren was indoctrinated. We also learn some descriptive information how the indoctrination works from Saren, Benezia and Rachni Queen . We learn that research station on virmire studied the effects of indoctrination on Salarian prisoners. Separate from indoctrination is the mind controlling power of Thorian creature.
We learn that reaper made implants increase the effect of indoctrination. We also learn that the subjects under indoctrination are less mentally capable when controlling their will is increased. We learn that the effects of indoctrination are subtle at first from both Benezia and Saren but eventually the subject falls more and more under its control.

Mass Effect 2:
We witness through the video log the effects of indoctrination on Cerberus crew inside derelict reaper. We stop the indoctrinated scientists on Arrival dlc. We find the reaper artifact in one of the side mission and it has huskified all the people around it. Mind control (for synthetics) is also a major plot for Overlord dlc. We also learn about Collectors fate and how Reaper's reproduce.

Mass Effect 3:
We learn that Cerberus is using Reaper technology on their forces but they have a huge risk of becoming indoctrinated (and many if not all of them become). Illusive Man has finally felt under Reaper control. We learn that Reapers can control synthetics as well. We can learn how subtle indoctrination process is through Shepard's eyes with numerous evidences.

Modifié par Humakt83, 09 avril 2012 - 12:23 .


#33969
Giluc

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So the reapers, that created the citadel so many years ago, foresaw that over the many cycles, organics would be able to design and eventually create a weapon that would be capable of destroying them? Why would they create that possibility?

Because then the organics would have proven that they are worthy of staying.

And about Anderson getting there before Shepard, and him saying he got sent to another room - it's pretty obvious that when Shepard passes that "bridge", they're talking about the same place. Anderson were simply faster.

Modifié par Giluc, 09 avril 2012 - 12:21 .


#33970
Derp88

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Heard from a Twitter that "depending on your ending, rebuilding the relays is completely likely".

Does this suggest that the endings did actually happen? After all, how can you rebuild something that hasn't been destroyed?

Hope its not the case, but still....

#33971
Rifneno

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clennon8 wrote...

There wouldn't be much speculation, I don't think. The vast majority of people would just say "I guess I'm picking Destroy from now on."


Yeah and? How does that differ from the many choices we already have where people pick the right one because they know how it'll turn out? How many people destroy Maelon's data, or kill the rachni queen, or hand Legion over to Cerberus?

Sire Styx wrote...

No offence, but have I said something wrong when I mentioned Quarian synthetic augmentation lol? No reply on twitter or here :(
The only links on google I found was people speculating about it, nothing definite.


I don't think you offended. See, you're still alive. Talimancers have only one solution for those that offend. Fire. I think it's just that nobody really knows.

Arian Dynas wrote...

Though, right now, with The Truth pretty well disproven, I'm starting to lose faith


Then look back at the mountain of evidence that made you believe in the first place. The game pretty much writes "indoctrination!" on a sign with red paint and then beats us with it.

Giluc wrote...

Because then the organics would have proven that they are worthy of staying.

And about Anderson getting there before Shepard, and him saying he got sent to another room - it's pretty obvious that when Shepard passes that "bridge", they're talking about the same place. Anderson were simply faster.


So Anderson got there ahead of him by following him in. 'kay.

#33972
zakaryzb

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IronSabbath88 wrote...

zakaryzb wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Perhaps the Reapers do this every cycle for the one person who is The Catalyst. Which in this cycle, is Shepard.

Wishful thinking but I can't get that "End of the First Matrix" thing that Mac wrote on his sheet out of my head.


What exactly are you referring to? Sorry, I don't remember hearing about this.


The Final Hours app, when they show Mac's writing of how the ending was going to be, he wrote off to the side "End of the First Matrix"

In the end of the Matrix, Neo is revealed to be The One after being led down a path that made it seem like it wasn't him. But ultimately, it was him.


Well, while not actually being the catalyst, Shepard did have a conversation with starchild like Neo did at the end of Matrix Revolutions and Shepard was "the One" that makes the ultimate decision in the end.

Im not supporting the endings just trying to make sense of them and where the **** the writers were coming from.

#33973
n00bsauce2010

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zakaryzb wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

zakaryzb wrote...

IronSabbath88 wrote...

Perhaps the Reapers do this every cycle for the one person who is The Catalyst. Which in this cycle, is Shepard.

Wishful thinking but I can't get that "End of the First Matrix" thing that Mac wrote on his sheet out of my head.


What exactly are you referring to? Sorry, I don't remember hearing about this.


The Final Hours app, when they show Mac's writing of how the ending was going to be, he wrote off to the side "End of the First Matrix"

In the end of the Matrix, Neo is revealed to be The One after being led down a path that made it seem like it wasn't him. But ultimately, it was him.


Well, while not actually being the catalyst, Shepard did have a conversation with starchild like Neo did at the end of Matrix Revolutions and Shepard was "the One" that makes the ultimate decision in the end.

Im not supporting the endings just trying to make sense of them and where the **** the writers were coming from.


My assumption is that some powerful opiates made their way into the system of Bioware's writers. Hence the terrible writing in the last 10-15 minutes.

#33974
Big G13

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So Anderson got there ahead of him by following him in. 'kay.
@ Rifneno: On this particular point I disagree. When using the relays the variation of your exit is thousands of miles. I believe that was stated in the codex. Please correct me if I am wrong. The beam that leads to the Citadel is much smaller, so, smaller variation, but variation non the less. I don't think it is a point to point transporter ala Star Trek.

Modifié par Big G13, 09 avril 2012 - 01:24 .


#33975
McWhitey3

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Wouldn't that be something, if the DLC is actually showing when the prothean champion talked to the star child and picked "control" and becoming indoc or showing reapers taking over them