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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#34451
lex0r11

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Voodzik wrote...

Okay. I'm gonna put my two cents in again against both the "IT is fake 'cus troll troll troll" folk and the "IT is the truth whatever the truth is and anyone who disagrees is a troll" crowds.

Civility, folks? A little keeping calm and carrying on maybe? We'll know in summer. No need to act like a bunch of lunatics over this.


Don't worry.
Liara didn't have to come in here again or even "superhug" thresher m'aaaw.

#34452
chidingewe8036

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chidingewe8036 wrote...

Screw Biofail, The Indoctrination Theory is True Bioware and haters can deny it, twist it, try and debunk it, hate it, love it, flip it, pat it and rub it down all you want. Don't tell me about that plot hole crap ME is full of those just read the novels then play the games or whatever. Bioware needs to take it, run with it, forget that artistic integrity bull, and tell the fans (those who believe in the theory that is) thank you for fixing our crap fest ending, and redeem themselves case closed.

Next order of business will be waking Shepard up, getting him out of that rubble and sticking a big universal reaper vaporizer bomb up Harbinger's metal butt and press the goodbye button.

The Galaxy and Shepard's surviving friends and Allies Celebrate, Shepard is a f*** bad A reaper killer, time to go make babies with your chosen love interest.........The End. Role Those Epic Credits with the Suicide Mission Theme then throw in some Mass Effect 1 M4 Faunts music BAAAM THERE YOU GO THE END!!!!!!

Oh does that sound to simple Bioware? hmmmm thats the freakin point lol

Also, that scene with the old man and the little boy at the end? WTF was that??? ROFL



#34453
Arian Dynas

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[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...

[quote]balance5050 wrote...

 Pat Weekes just tweeted these two things.

https://twitter.com/...509888924319744 

https://twitter.com/...510162615250944 
[/quote]

Who the hell is using Weekes to attack other devs. Cause that's downright scummy. Patrick took time out to answer questions and people are using that to attack others? Ugh.

[/quote]

It has occured to me, has anyone, oh I don't know, maybe ASKED Weekes what he thought of the endings?

[quote]King Gigglez wrote...

[quote]Voodzik wrote...

Okay. So this got kinda buried but...if reapers are like geth, and exist as digital entities, breaking free of indoctrination could really HURT them. An event for them doesn't have to be physical to be "real." And there's your IT affecting the real world. Harbinger just got shot in the mind.

Also, a thought: if I, personally, was actually given those three options? Pick control. Make reapers kill each other. Geth saved, galaxy saved, woot.[/quote]
If Synthesis was real, I would have chosen that... I always thought Saren was right in his flawed reasoning... and while my reasoning would still be flawed, if I knew Synthesis would work, I would chose that... if not... Control, gotta keep the Geth and Galaxy alive!

Also, I have a very high interest in replaying ME3 to see if the IT is really true, I got the feeling that he was actually dreaming/dead when he got hit by the laser but it became to religious thinking that the Catalyst was god ... but anyway IT is the only way to get the ending to make sense...

[/quote]

For that I direct you to my early draft of my ending script for the concept you have illustrated; http://social.biowar...index/9967355/1 

Otherwise, check my sig for a better one :)



[quote]NotAnotherDisplayName wrote...

[quote]Flash_Death wrote...

[quote]Golferguy758 wrote...

All the endings will be "real endings" IT will probably be the red one with blue and green being "real" in their own way. That way there is no "canon" ending.

But that's just my perspective[/quote]

My only argument with that is they said they want to make more games. so if there are three seporate outcomes they couldn't be set after the events of me3.  Well then again as the endings stand they can't do that either so...yeah.

[/quote]

Sure they can- either make it in the far future or in a local sector.  If you establish it in a section of space where standard FTL is sufficient to get you from A to B, you've got plenty of opportunity to keep going.  Just fill in what's going on in the 'rest of the galaxy' via your save game decisions.  If you go far future you build in 10,000 years of time for the writiers to twist the galaxy to their will.

But however they slice it, I imagine the previews, triailers, etc., of any sort of ME4 would reveal enough of the universe to let those that are bitter with the current resolution decide if that galaxy is a palce they want to visit.
[/quote]

If they go this route (which I don't think they will), they'd have to adopt some form of canon ending, because simply put, the ramifications of Synthesis are WAAAAAAY too damn big. Morever, restricting you to one area of the galaxy eh? What does that sound like? *coughda2cough*


[quote]Voodzik wrote...

The thing that's really driving me nuts about IT is that if this were nearly any other industry, I'd just be assuming it's true at this point. That's coming from a narrative/publishing background.(yes, I mention it a lot, but I do have one and it's where a lot of my thoughts come from.) IT is what the narrative flow leads to. It's what the narrative supports.

But unlike books there's so much OTHER STUFF involved here. TWO game companies, a team of writers, the thing where he did the endings in secret, revised scripts....Gahhhhhh. This is so much easier in book publishing! There's one author usually! One! With mass effect it feels like there's all these big hands groping around in the story structure and I don't know what to make of it.[/quote]

Ever heard the phrase "Too many cooks spoil the broth"?

Have patience man, Bioware is the king of videogame plot twists. I hope.


[quote]Rifneno wrote...

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...

[quote]Domanese wrote...

So folks, what did I miss today? Anything good?[/quote]

Well.. I have hope again personally. As for my reasons why, I direct you here; http://social.biowar...1353/1#11221491 
[/quote]

I'm 99% certain that those were the original ones too, as they're what the CE guide lists as the ending choices.[/quote]

Which leaves us with the question of; WHY THE HELL THEN WOULD YOU WRITE THEM OUT!?!?

#34454
Big G13

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chidingewe8036 wrote...

chidingewe8036 wrote...

Screw Biofail, The Indoctrination Theory is True Bioware and haters can deny it, twist it, try and debunk it, hate it, love it, flip it, pat it and rub it down all you want. Don't tell me about that plot hole crap ME is full of those just read the novels then play the games or whatever. Bioware needs to take it, run with it, forget that artistic integrity bull, and tell the fans (those who believe in the theory that is) thank you for fixing our crap fest ending, and redeem themselves case closed.

Next order of business will be waking Shepard up, getting him out of that rubble and sticking a big universal reaper vaporizer bomb up Harbinger's metal butt and press the goodbye button.

The Galaxy and Shepard's surviving friends and Allies Celebrate, Shepard is a f*** bad A reaper killer, time to go make babies with your chosen love interest.........The End. Role Those Epic Credits with the Suicide Mission Theme then throw in some Mass Effect 1 M4 Faunts music BAAAM THERE YOU GO THE END!!!!!!

Oh does that sound to simple Bioware? hmmmm thats the freakin point lol

Also, that scene with the old man and the little boy at the end? WTF was that??? ROFL

I like your attitude soldier.

#34455
MothrascoolerthenGodzilla

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Ok, then. New angle. Control.

How can Shepard control the reapers if he's dead? I see that ending as him having control for 2 seconds, then bam reapers back in action.

Modifié par MothrascoolerthenGodzilla, 10 avril 2012 - 04:33 .


#34456
Voodzik

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Big G13 wrote...

Voodzik wrote...

Okay. I'm gonna put my two cents in again against both the "IT is fake 'cus troll troll troll" folk and the "IT is the truth whatever the truth is and anyone who disagrees is a troll" crowds.

Civility, folks? A little keeping calm and carrying on maybe? We'll know in summer. No need to act like a bunch of lunatics over this.

o.k. point taken, but really, this thread hasn't been this calm since the day we spent three pages talking about pizza. But calls for civil behavior are always welcome.


I saw a few trollish posts and decided an early call for civility was best rather than trying to shout it amongst the rampaging troll herd.:P

#34457
savagejuicebox

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chidingewe8036 wrote...

chidingewe8036 wrote...

Screw Biofail, The Indoctrination Theory is True Bioware and haters can deny it, twist it, try and debunk it, hate it, love it, flip it, pat it and rub it down all you want. Don't tell me about that plot hole crap ME is full of those just read the novels then play the games or whatever. Bioware needs to take it, run with it, forget that artistic integrity bull, and tell the fans (those who believe in the theory that is) thank you for fixing our crap fest ending, and redeem themselves case closed.

Next order of business will be waking Shepard up, getting him out of that rubble and sticking a big universal reaper vaporizer bomb up Harbinger's metal butt and press the goodbye button.

The Galaxy and Shepard's surviving friends and Allies Celebrate, Shepard is a f*** bad A reaper killer, time to go make babies with your chosen love interest.........The End. Role Those Epic Credits with the Suicide Mission Theme then throw in some Mass Effect 1 M4 Faunts music BAAAM THERE YOU GO THE END!!!!!!

Oh does that sound to simple Bioware? hmmmm thats the freakin point lol

Also, that scene with the old man and the little boy at the end? WTF was that??? ROFL


Hell yes, i like it!

#34458
savagejuicebox

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This is a good read, check it out. Bioware should read this fo sho!

www.gamefront.com/mass-effect-3-ending-change-could-have-empowered-game-writing/

#34459
DirtyPhoenix

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MothrascoolerthenGodzilla wrote...

Ok, then. New angle. Control.

How can Shepard control the reapers if he's dead? I see that ending as him having control for 2 seconds, then bam reapers back in action.


Maybe he becomes the new catalyst.. the kid catalyst being the Shepard from some ancient cycle? Without a physical body... an AI-human amalgam like that rogue VI in overlord.. Which brings in an uncomfortable thought. maybe Shepard would lose his mind sometime in the future and start the cycle again? I dont know, control is so shady.

#34460
JohnZord

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I think that the IT is brilliant. I believe that Bioware deliberately held off the conclusion to get the player to think about what is really happening with Shepard. I think it's a gamble they took and were willing to take all the negative feedback just to release an awe inspiring conclusion that will just be so epic. This "so called" clarification dlc that they are going to release this summer was already planned. It has to be. They can't keep such a lousy ending for such an awesome franchise.

#34461
Legion109

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lex0r11 wrote...

Voodzik wrote...

Okay. I'm gonna put my two cents in again against both the "IT is fake 'cus troll troll troll" folk and the "IT is the truth whatever the truth is and anyone who disagrees is a troll" crowds.

Civility, folks? A little keeping calm and carrying on maybe? We'll know in summer. No need to act like a bunch of lunatics over this.


Don't worry.
Liara didn't have to come in here again or even "superhug" thresher m'aaaw.


Dude I got withdrawals bad man I need a Thresher M'aaaw :o

#34462
Legion109

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<------- X.X (Krogan dies from M'aaaw withdrawal news at 11)

#34463
Guest_magnetite_*

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I just finished reading through the Final Hours of Mass Effect 3. So if it was the plan for Mac and Casey to have us interpret the ending in our own way instead of having it spoon fed to us, then I choose to interpret it the way I saw it.

Indoctrination theory lives. At least in my ending. That's the ending I'm sticking with.

#34464
clennon8

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 I believe there was an indoctrination attempt involved, but I don't believe the version of IT that is being espoused.  That version hinges on the premise that Shepard is on Earth the whole time.  Unfortunately, the Shep Breathes video simply doesn't support that.  It really doesn't.  First of all, the rubble is comprised of chunks of cut stone with grooves in it. Those pieces of stone can be matched up against the structure that Shepard shot at and destroyed. Yes, stone. It is not unreasonable to think that certain structures on the Citadel could be made of stone.  And the piece of rebar sticking up from the rubble is not rebar; it's a piece of cable. If you look at the apparatus before you shoot it, you can see identical cables fastened to it. Then there is the ambient sound of the scene.  It sounds like groaning metal in a damaged ship.  Shepard wouldn't have been spaced because the Citadel can put up force fields to enclose individual sections.

Does this mean IT is completely debunked?  No.  But it does mean the theory needs revision.  I think Shepard made it to the beam and up to the Citadel, but was half out of his mind and desperately fighting against indoctrination.  What we saw was a mixture of reality and hallucination.

#34465
Bill Casey

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clennon8 wrote...

I think Shepard made it to the beam and up to the Citadel, but was half out of his mind and desperately fighting against indoctrination.  What we saw was a mixture of reality and hallucination.


I've mentioned this a few times as a possibility...
That Shepard is rambling to himself/Reapers on the Citadel like Edward Norton in Fight Club...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 10 avril 2012 - 07:36 .


#34466
Spectre-61

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It's good to see people here who are still convinced that IDT is the way to go. I tried to wrap my head around that Ending DLC only with cinematics (non playable sequences). And I tried to explain it myself without our theory. But my thoughts always get to a point where I think "No, there is just no way!".

And when I go with the Indoctrination theory it makes much more sense.

So, I'll hold the line till summer!

#34467
Raistlin Majare 1992

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clennon8 wrote...

 I believe there was an indoctrination attempt involved, but I don't believe the version of IT that is being espoused.  That version hinges on the premise that Shepard is on Earth the whole time.  Unfortunately, the Shep Breathes video simply doesn't support that.  It really doesn't.  First of all, the rubble is comprised of chunks of cut stone with grooves in it. Those pieces of stone can be matched up against the structure that Shepard shot at and destroyed. Yes, stone. It is not unreasonable to think that certain structures on the Citadel could be made of stone.  And the piece of rebar sticking up from the rubble is not rebar; it's a piece of cable. If you look at the apparatus before you shoot it, you can see identical cables fastened to it. Then there is the ambient sound of the scene.  It sounds like groaning metal in a damaged ship.  Shepard wouldn't have been spaced because the Citadel can put up force fields to enclose individual sections.

Does this mean IT is completely debunked?  No.  But it does mean the theory needs revision.  I think Shepard made it to the beam and up to the Citadel, but was half out of his mind and desperately fighting against indoctrination.  What we saw was a mixture of reality and hallucination.


In advance sorry for any spelling mistakes and stuff. Writing from my iPad and it does not allow me to scroll down the textbox so after a certain point I can't see what I am writing.

Im sorry but what part of what Shepard shot at was made of stone? I did not see a single piece of stone in the entire ending sequence and the only stone I remember from the citadel all in all is statues...I highly doubt Shepard hit that.

Edit: just washed the destroy ending again and I there is no stone anywhere near the tube you shoot. It is all metal in different hues. Which makes sense since it is a space station and tha.

 Also personally I don't think it is a cable. While it is certainly not Reaper tech, it looks more like a piece of metal with that spiral etching on it and how rigid it looks inn the cut scene. 

Also off topic:dhal anyone here read Naomi Norvicks Temeraire series, just curios.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 10 avril 2012 - 07:55 .


#34468
Spectre-61

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

 I believe there was an indoctrination attempt involved, but I don't believe the version of IT that is being espoused.  That version hinges on the premise that Shepard is on Earth the whole time.  Unfortunately, the Shep Breathes video simply doesn't support that.  It really doesn't.  First of all, the rubble is comprised of chunks of cut stone with grooves in it. Those pieces of stone can be matched up against the structure that Shepard shot at and destroyed. Yes, stone. It is not unreasonable to think that certain structures on the Citadel could be made of stone.  And the piece of rebar sticking up from the rubble is not rebar; it's a piece of cable. If you look at the apparatus before you shoot it, you can see identical cables fastened to it. Then there is the ambient sound of the scene.  It sounds like groaning metal in a damaged ship.  Shepard wouldn't have been spaced because the Citadel can put up force fields to enclose individual sections.

Does this mean IT is completely debunked?  No.  But it does mean the theory needs revision.  I think Shepard made it to the beam and up to the Citadel, but was half out of his mind and desperately fighting against indoctrination.  What we saw was a mixture of reality and hallucination.


Im sorry but what part of what Shepard shot at was made of stone? I did not see a single piece of stone in the entire ending sequence and the only stone I remember from the citadel all in all is statues...I highly doubt Shepard hit that.

Edit: just washed the destroy ending again and I there is no stone anywhere near the tube you shoot. It is all metal in different hues. Which makes sense since it is a space station and tha.

 Also personally I don't think it is a cable. While it is certainly not Reaper tech, it looks more like a piece of metal with that spiral etching on it and how rigid it looks inn the cut scene. 

Also off topic:dhal anyone here read Naomi Norvicks Temeraire series, just curios.



Just listen closely and you can hear WIND in that scene.
That scene plays on earth!

#34469
liggy002

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clennon8 wrote...

 I believe there was an indoctrination attempt involved, but I don't believe the version of IT that is being espoused.  That version hinges on the premise that Shepard is on Earth the whole time.  Unfortunately, the Shep Breathes video simply doesn't support that.  It really doesn't.  First of all, the rubble is comprised of chunks of cut stone with grooves in it. Those pieces of stone can be matched up against the structure that Shepard shot at and destroyed. Yes, stone. It is not unreasonable to think that certain structures on the Citadel could be made of stone.  And the piece of rebar sticking up from the rubble is not rebar; it's a piece of cable. If you look at the apparatus before you shoot it, you can see identical cables fastened to it. Then there is the ambient sound of the scene.  It sounds like groaning metal in a damaged ship.  Shepard wouldn't have been spaced because the Citadel can put up force fields to enclose individual sections.

Does this mean IT is completely debunked?  No.  But it does mean the theory needs revision.  I think Shepard made it to the beam and up to the Citadel, but was half out of his mind and desperately fighting against indoctrination.  What we saw was a mixture of reality and hallucination.


Did you see the size of that explosion on the citadel?  To claim that Shepard survived that explosion on the citadel is just ridiculous.  And if you can hear wind in that scene, then indeed it couldn't have taken place in space.  Also remember that if the Citadel did explode, i'm pretty sure that the mass effect fields or kinetic barriers (whatever it was) wouldn't be intact and Shepard would be screwed without a helmet in space.

Modifié par liggy002, 10 avril 2012 - 08:03 .


#34470
Raistlin Majare 1992

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liggy002 
Did you see the size of that explosion on the citadel?  To claim that Shepard survived that explosion on the citadel is just ridiculous.  And if you can hear wind in that scene, then indeed it couldn't have taken place in space.  Also remember that if the Citadel did explode, i'm pretty sure that the mass effect fields or kinetic barriers (whatever it was) wouldn't be intact and Shepard would be screwed without a helmet in space.


Not even mentioning eminent orbital reentry with a damaged armor and no helmet...

#34471
lex0r11

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variobunz wrote...

It's good to see people here who are still convinced that IDT is the way to go. I tried to wrap my head around that Ending DLC only with cinematics (non playable sequences). And I tried to explain it myself without our theory. But my thoughts always get to a point where I think "No, there is just no way!".

And when I go with the Indoctrination theory it makes much more sense.

So, I'll hold the line till summer!


Posted Image

#34472
Big G13

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Kyzee wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Guys, no need to fight! This community is awesome!

Everyone gather in for a group hug!



Posted Image

BUMPED for Legion109.

#34473
Raistlin Majare 1992

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 You know I am a huge fan of the anime Gurren Lagann, it is awesome and completely outrageous with some insane scenarios which you simply come to accept as the show goes along simply nodding with the equally ludicrous explanations in complete understanding.

My point here is that a show which literally has two mechs the size of galaxies ducking it out as part of the ending still made more sense than the Mass Effect 3 ending in my eyes.

Also shameless off topic bumb of my own question, but has anyone here read Naomi Norvicks Temeraire series? Just curious.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 10 avril 2012 - 08:36 .


#34474
Saodade

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All this said, in dragon age you can use the evil way with Morrigan to survive the nasty dragon light beam at the end (THAT was a nice boss fight ). Now for mass effect ending, WHERE is Morigan when you need her ??
Sorry just trying to relax from the obscure side of the fan entitlement...

#34475
Legion109

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Krogan mysteriously revived by Big G13 learns true unity by giant Thresher M'aaaw hug story at 11