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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#3476
XCMichael

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Lambchopz wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

Lambchopz wrote...



Will be less entertaining if BioWare comes out and says the ending is staying as is, though.


I don't know...I still think it'd be entertaining to have a documented list (and now videos and pictures) of inconsistencies that  showcase their mistakes :P


Agreed. Either way, this discussion has lead to some good things. I am glad it turned out to be such a nice thread.


Yeah, no one is flaming, constructive discussion and everyone is pooling in ideas. The internet's not too bad a place:innocent:

Modifié par XCMichael, 12 mars 2012 - 05:33 .


#3477
Chicken Farmer

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Lugaidster wrote...


It is a 3v1 fight...


With Kai Leng summoning phatoms at you... a lot of them. It's more like 3v10 fight.

Edit: NVM, a ton of people beat me to the chase

Modifié par Chicken Farmer, 12 mars 2012 - 05:56 .


#3478
Mr.Snithums

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XCMichael wrote...

Oh and another point, remember in the "ending" sequence, Shepard's armor was pretty much blown off and he/she was just wearing a very ragged version of the Alliance crew uniform. The secret ending shows him/her in her N7 armor (of course, provided that is him/ her). Again, sloppy writing? or hint hint?


I do believe thats just an N7 dogtag which I would pressume Shepard wears at all times along with whatever other ones s/he wears.

#3479
BigBossBoo

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If they didn't mean for indoctrination hallucination as the real ending and it was an accident that it fits the oddity of the ending so well.. it'd truly be monkeys on a typewriter creating a shakespeare play. Things make too much sense too me with this theory for it to be an accident..

#3480
ClydeDroid

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 I don't know if this had been said already in this thread, but I just realized something, and it could be huge.
Throughout the Mass Effect series, Renegade actions are committed with a left mouse click, and Paragon actions are committed with a right click.

At the end of the game, when the three choices are presented to you... Control is on the left. Destroy is on the right.

#3481
Lambchopz

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Lugaidster wrote...

Either we're geniuses for figuring this out, or we start another thread after an official response called "masseffectaholics anonymous". I'm up for either, I'm not ready to give up on Mass Effect just yet.


Well, if it's actually true, both would be equally justified.

If it's not... well, we can continue to talk about the PTSD we have all suffered in that latter proposed thread/

#3482
lavosslayer

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ceruleancrescent wrote...

Miss Vader wrote...

Outlaw704 wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

I just watched the 'shepard waking from rubble' scene at the end of the credits again:

I'm afraid that I'll have to put an end to everyone's hope. The only reason you get that scene after choosing to destroy the reapers, is because that is the only choice where shepard's dead body can possibly remain:

If you choose to control the reapers, shepard turns into a husk.

If you choose the hybrid path, shepard turns into space dust.

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

Nevertheless, no matter how bad the endings seems to be, and how many plotholes and nosencial it is, it is indeed, the ending, Shepard died :*(


Control does not turn you into a Husk. If you pay attention, Shepard dissolves just like in the Synthesis ending. Shepard's body would burn up in the atmosphere if it was true that he/she simply fell to Earth. If real, Shepard's body wouldn't exist period, there would be nothing to recover and would completely nullify the breathing scene at the end of the Destroy option.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7OdYt0rqZQ#t=1m09s
http://www.youtube.c...jgROzS0#t=1m53s

look at shepards face and eyes(Even they turn blue characteristic of every husk or hybrid husk.. Saren, TIM) and tell me he isn't being huskified before disolving into reaper goo

(I'm not supporing his stance because I  think it was all indoctrination, but this right here proves its something more then what meets the eye


Good catch! This could definitely prove the indoctrination of those two endings


Posted Image
Posted Image

Both look very husk like to me (the reaper behind shep is a nice touch)





This is fantastic!!!!

#3483
TheNexus

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 I would love for the hallucination thing to be true. There's just one problem I see with it regarding future DLC from a continuation/technical point of view.

Saves.

After the credits you're back on the Normandy before you attack TIM's hideout. If you check your hours played when you resave, it basically just takes you back in time. So I'm not even sure if the game "knows" if you beat the game or not.

I've also heard from Casey Hudson many times in the past not being concerned with contiuation in ME3.

Maybe someone that's a bit more computer savvy than me can chime in on this? Does the game know you beat it and what ending path you took even if it doesn't show it in your saves?

#3484
PlumPaul93

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Nope.

#3485
Evindell

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I just don't understand these atrocious endings!! What happened?

I mean, I'm watching a video of what could possibly happen with the Genophage if you don't let Mordin cure it. And the emotion in the scene! From Modin's anger, to the way Shepard throws the gun away in, what I can only describe as disgust. It's shows such emotion, intelligence, and depth. And then we get some **** endings?

If you're curious, here's the video I'm watching: www.youtube.com/watch

I'm watching it, because I could never do that. So this is the only way I'll see it.

Modifié par Evindell, 12 mars 2012 - 05:37 .


#3486
krystalevenstar

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Just another bump for the 'dreamlike tree evidence', watching the initial approach to the conduit before you're struck by the laser, there are no trees along the path...

#3487
humes spork

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carilynn46 wrote...

But lets say you think control is the best way to go so you side with TIM and so he deals with the reaper weapon and choice to control them.


I want to say something about the control ending also, I've been defending merge against the people who are arguing that anything but destroy is an ending in which Shepard ends up indoctrinated. The kid, and Javik, and Vendetta, all make the point there's someone like TIM in every cycle. Someone who wants to try to control the Reapers rather than destroy them, and ends up Indoctrinated and betraying their own people. The important part there is, control the Reapers to what end.

TIM, and others like him in previous cycles, wanted to use the Reapers for their own ends and nefarious purposes. They wanted to benefit from the Reapers in one way or another, and in doing so regardless of method or intent they keep the Reapers around and end up Indoctrinated nevertheless. And in the control ending, that's what separates Shepard from would-be controllers in previous cycles: Shepard doesn't want to use the Reapers or to dominate them; Shepard gives the Reapers a singular command, and that is to leave for dark space and never return.

If indeed the purpose was to Indoctrinate Shepard, or if the control ending was in fact a means to do so, would Shepard not emulate TIM's goals and methods rather than just order the Reapers to leave? That is clearly not what Shepard does in the end, and for that reason you can make the argument that even in control Shepard retains his own will, personality and goals even if his methods come close to those employed by TIM and others like him in previous cycles.

#3488
byne

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PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Nope.


Oh, well after 140 pages, I'm glad someone like you finally came along with a definitive answer.

;)

#3489
TamiBx

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ceruleancrescent wrote...

Miss Vader wrote...

Outlaw704 wrote...

BlackDragonBane wrote...

Mizar_Panzar wrote...

I just watched the 'shepard waking from rubble' scene at the end of the credits again:

I'm afraid that I'll have to put an end to everyone's hope. The only reason you get that scene after choosing to destroy the reapers, is because that is the only choice where shepard's dead body can possibly remain:

If you choose to control the reapers, shepard turns into a husk.

If you choose the hybrid path, shepard turns into space dust.

If you choose to destroy reapers, shepard's dead body falls back to earth and is eventually discovered and tagged and perhaps people will build a shrine for him......

Nevertheless, no matter how bad the endings seems to be, and how many plotholes and nosencial it is, it is indeed, the ending, Shepard died :*(


Control does not turn you into a Husk. If you pay attention, Shepard dissolves just like in the Synthesis ending. Shepard's body would burn up in the atmosphere if it was true that he/she simply fell to Earth. If real, Shepard's body wouldn't exist period, there would be nothing to recover and would completely nullify the breathing scene at the end of the Destroy option.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7OdYt0rqZQ#t=1m09s
http://www.youtube.c...jgROzS0#t=1m53s

look at shepards face and eyes(Even they turn blue characteristic of every husk or hybrid husk.. Saren, TIM) and tell me he isn't being huskified before disolving into reaper goo

(I'm not supporing his stance because I  think it was all indoctrination, but this right here proves its something more then what meets the eye


Good catch! This could definitely prove the indoctrination of those two endings


Posted Image
Posted Image

Both look very husk like to me (the reaper behind shep is a nice touch)





Honestly, when the spoiler about the ending came out (before the game came out) on 4chan and I read that you could become a reaper or control it, I thought "wtf are they talking about?! We have to kill them no matter what! Wouldn't that mean that the reapers won? :blink:" 

Guess...we get to pick if we wanna become a husk ;) 

#3490
Mr.Snithums

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TheNexus wrote...

 I would love for the hallucination thing to be true. There's just one problem I see with it regarding future DLC from a continuation/technical point of view.

Saves.

After the credits you're back on the Normandy before you attack TIM's hideout. If you check your hours played when you resave, it basically just takes you back in time. So I'm not even sure if the game "knows" if you beat the game or not.

I've also heard from Casey Hudson many times in the past not being concerned with contiuation in ME3.

Maybe someone that's a bit more computer savvy than me can chime in on this? Does the game know you beat it and what ending path you took even if it doesn't show it in your saves?


I believe the game records that your 'Career' beat the game but I do believe if you were to save immediatly after loading back in onto the Normandy your 'timed played' is as if you never did anything past TIM's base. I could be wrong on the time played tracking but it does look like what I saw when comparing saves after I beat the game.

Modifié par Mr.Snithums, 12 mars 2012 - 05:39 .


#3491
Lambchopz

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TheNexus wrote...

 I would love for the hallucination thing to be true. There's just one problem I see with it regarding future DLC from a continuation/technical point of view.

Saves.

After the credits you're back on the Normandy before you attack TIM's hideout. If you check your hours played when you resave, it basically just takes you back in time. So I'm not even sure if the game "knows" if you beat the game or not.

I've also heard from Casey Hudson many times in the past not being concerned with contiuation in ME3.

Maybe someone that's a bit more computer savvy than me can chime in on this? Does the game know you beat it and what ending path you took even if it doesn't show it in your saves?


I'm assuming at some level it does, if for no other reason then to make sure NG+ is enabled. You can't do a NG+ run unless the game recognizes you have already completed one run.

Dunno if this really matters though.

#3492
Lugaidster

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TheNexus wrote...

 I would love for the hallucination thing to be true. There's just one problem I see with it regarding future DLC from a continuation/technical point of view.

Saves.

After the credits you're back on the Normandy before you attack TIM's hideout. If you check your hours played when you resave, it basically just takes you back in time. So I'm not even sure if the game "knows" if you beat the game or not.

I've also heard from Casey Hudson many times in the past not being concerned with contiuation in ME3.

Maybe someone that's a bit more computer savvy than me can chime in on this? Does the game know you beat it and what ending path you took even if it doesn't show it in your saves?


How do you think the NG+ works?

#3493
MPSai

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ClydeDroid wrote...

 I don't know if this had been said already in this thread, but I just realized something, and it could be huge.
Throughout the Mass Effect series, Renegade actions are committed with a left mouse click, and Paragon actions are committed with a right click.

At the end of the game, when the three choices are presented to you... Control is on the left. Destroy is on the right.


Yeah it's been said, also Anderson being show in the Red and TIM being shown in the Blue. In the fanon established by this thread this is Harbinger/Catalyst's way of trying to discourage Shepard from the destroy option. 

#3494
Devbo22

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TheNexus wrote...

 I would love for the hallucination thing to be true. There's just one problem I see with it regarding future DLC from a continuation/technical point of view.

Saves.

After the credits you're back on the Normandy before you attack TIM's hideout. If you check your hours played when you resave, it basically just takes you back in time. So I'm not even sure if the game "knows" if you beat the game or not.

I've also heard from Casey Hudson many times in the past not being concerned with contiuation in ME3.

Maybe someone that's a bit more computer savvy than me can chime in on this? Does the game know you beat it and what ending path you took even if it doesn't show it in your saves?

Pretty sure it creates a save file similar to the end of mass effect 1.  It's a save, but you can't load it.

#3495
Dilandau3000

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I don't believe it. You can argue all you want that it makes sense from a story perspective for the ending to be a dream, and I will even agree with you.

I however do not believe Bioware would be stupid enough to do this without having a more explicit hint (other than things not making sense) about it. In fact, the post-credits epilogue gives me the impression that it wasn't a dream.

I could make sense if it was a dream. They might even take that approach based on the backlash. But I cannot believe it was their original intent.

Modifié par Dilandau3000, 12 mars 2012 - 05:39 .


#3496
krystalevenstar

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ClydeDroid wrote...

 I don't know if this had been said already in this thread, but I just realized something, and it could be huge.
Throughout the Mass Effect series, Renegade actions are committed with a left mouse click, and Paragon actions are committed with a right click.

At the end of the game, when the three choices are presented to you... Control is on the left. Destroy is on the right.


Nice! I don't think anyone has specifically pointed that out. All I've heard is that the Destroy option is portrayed as Regenade, even though it's Anderson doing it, and the Control is portrayed as Paragon, even though it's TIM.

#3497
humes spork

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ClydeDroid wrote...

At the end of the game, when the three choices are presented to you... Control is on the left. Destroy is on the right.


The entire area, including the area behind Shepard, resembles a large dialog wheel. In comparison, control is the "top" (paragon) dialog slot, merge the "center" (neutral), and destroy the "bottom" (renegade).

And, in console versions the opposite is true. Renegade interrupts are done by right trigger, paragon by left trigger.

Modifié par humes spork, 12 mars 2012 - 05:41 .


#3498
krystalevenstar

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TheNexus wrote...

 I would love for the hallucination thing to be true. There's just one problem I see with it regarding future DLC from a continuation/technical point of view.

Saves.

After the credits you're back on the Normandy before you attack TIM's hideout. If you check your hours played when you resave, it basically just takes you back in time. So I'm not even sure if the game "knows" if you beat the game or not.

I've also heard from Casey Hudson many times in the past not being concerned with contiuation in ME3.

Maybe someone that's a bit more computer savvy than me can chime in on this? Does the game know you beat it and what ending path you took even if it doesn't show it in your saves?


The last autosave conviently starts exactly when you 'wake up' from being struck by the laser. Precisely when we're saying the dream/hallucination begins.

#3499
Outlaw704

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Ellestor wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

I don't understand this common misconception that you destroy most technology.

The Catalyst outright says that it does.

The Catalyst also says that you would die if you destroyed the reapers, and as shown by the 'secret' ending, hes lying

#3500
balance5050

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TheNexus wrote...

 I would love for the hallucination thing to be true. There's just one problem I see with it regarding future DLC from a continuation/technical point of view.

Saves.

After the credits you're back on the Normandy before you attack TIM's hideout. If you check your hours played when you resave, it basically just takes you back in time. So I'm not even sure if the game "knows" if you beat the game or not.

I've also heard from Casey Hudson many times in the past not being concerned with contiuation in ME3.

Maybe someone that's a bit more computer savvy than me can chime in on this? Does the game know you beat it and what ending path you took even if it doesn't show it in your saves?


It does recognize it because you can import your completed ME3 save for new game+, they take you back because that is the last point in time you can travel to any system before the reapers have everything on lockdown and you have to get to Earth.