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[Gilgamesh117]

I thought the whole point of the citadel attack was to assassinate the council? I mean that's what Kai Lang was after right?

[Arian Dynas]

Gilgamesh117 wrote...

I thought the whole point of the citadel attack was to assassinate the council? I mean that's what Kai Lang was after right?

It's what the plan turned into, the original plan was to ensure the succuess of Udina's coup, but when he proved too incompetent, they decided to assasinate the council, their likely motives either being to remove the leadership structure and demoralize an "enemy" of human interests, or to eliminate the council and seize power themselves, gaining a powerful resource in form the Citadel, which is in and of itself, a symbol, the seat of galatic government, which would have provided legitimacy to their coup, as well as granting them the material and industrial assets to be found there.

[crazyeye343]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Gilgamesh117 wrote...

I thought the whole point of the citadel attack was to assassinate the council? I mean that's what Kai Lang was after right?

It's what the plan turned into, the original plan was to ensure the succuess of Udina's coup, but when he proved too incompetent, they decided to assasinate the council, their likely motives either being to remove the leadership structure and demoralize an "enemy" of human interests, or to eliminate the council and seize power themselves, gaining a powerful resource in form the Citadel, which is in and of itself, a symbol, the seat of galatic government, which would have provided legitimacy to their coup, as well as granting them the material and industrial assets to be found there.

could it also be to Indoctrinate the council? 

[Lyria]

Big Bad wrote...

Hey Y'all, I know this is horribly, horribly cruel, but I just found this on the Mass Effect twitter, and I can't not post it.  My apologies.

. . .Ok it turns out that I don't know how to post pics, so here is the link.  You really,  really shouldn't click it, but you have to do so anyway.  Again, my apologies. 

http://melicamp.devi...-Baby-295713697

Just read that, and teared up a bit.  Liara and Shepard deserve blue babies! 

[Rifneno]

Arian Dynas wrote...

The Citadel was simple, they wanted to ensure Udina's coup would be succuessful, then they could use him as a pupped ruler and gain the collective military powers of the council races. Wouldn't have worked in the long run though, Cerberus understimated Udina's craven nature, as well as the stubbornness of the councilors.

No, that's what Udina was after.  Cerberus might have told him that was why, but it couldn't have been their true motive.  TIM wants to control the Reapers, not destroy them.  You don't need a giant army to hax0rz them, you need a giant army to murderize them.

[Arashi08]

I thought Cerberus wanted the Citadel because it was the Catalyst, and they knew that based on the information they recieved on Mars. (Shepard got most of it but Eva managed to upload a little to TIM.) of course, thw wrench in this is why would they need the prothean VI if they knew the Citadel was the Catalyst before that. the only conclusion I can make based on that is that maybe the info TIM got from Mars indicated that the Citadel was important regarding the Crucible, but didn't know that the Citadel itself was the Catalyst.

I'm not sure about any of it of course, but I thought it explained why they wanted the Citadel, still the fact that they need the VI does make their motives for the coup a little less clear...

[Bill Casey]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Gilgamesh117 wrote...

I thought the whole point of the citadel attack was to assassinate the council? I mean that's what Kai Lang was after right?

It's what the plan turned into, the original plan was to ensure the succuess of Udina's coup, but when he proved too incompetent, they decided to assasinate the council, their likely motives either being to remove the leadership structure and demoralize an "enemy" of human interests, or to eliminate the council and seize power themselves, gaining a powerful resource in form the Citadel, which is in and of itself, a symbol, the seat of galatic government, which would have provided legitimacy to their coup, as well as granting them the material and industrial assets to be found there.

Assasinating the council would be a coup for Udina...
Udina would be the only Council member left alive, and Udina could declare Martial law on the Citadel...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[byne]

Huh. One thing I've never noticed before after recruiting Javik, when he says those who share his goals of wiping out the Reapers are allies, and those who dont are enemies.

If you pick the renegade option, but are mostly paragon, Shepard will say: "Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.", to which Javik will respond: "I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words."

I know he doesnt say that if you're mostly renegade and choose that option, but still, why would Shepard have any doubt when telling Javik her goal is to destroy the Reapers, whether she's paragon or renegade?

[destroyer 654]

byne wrote...

Huh. One thing I've never noticed before after recruiting Javik, when he says those who share his goals of wiping out the Reapers are allies, and those who dont are enemies.

If you pick the renegade option, but are mostly paragon, Shepard will say: "Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.", to which Javik will respond: "I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words."

I know he doesnt say that if you're mostly renegade and choose that option, but still, why would Shepard have any doubt when telling Javik her goal is to destroy the Reapers, whether she's paragon or renegade?

Thats a really good point

[RoyalGambit]

byne wrote...

Huh. One thing I've never noticed before after recruiting Javik, when he says those who share his goals of wiping out the Reapers are allies, and those who dont are enemies.

If you pick the renegade option, but are mostly paragon, Shepard will say: "Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.", to which Javik will respond: "I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words."

I know he doesnt say that if you're mostly renegade and choose that option, but still, why would Shepard have any doubt when telling Javik her goal is to destroy the Reapers, whether she's paragon or renegade?

Do you know what Shep says if you choose the paragon option? Because I remember Javik saying the same thing, even though I most likely picked paragon. 

[EpyonX3]

byne wrote...

Huh. One thing I've never noticed before after recruiting Javik, when he says those who share his goals of wiping out the Reapers are allies, and those who dont are enemies.

If you pick the renegade option, but are mostly paragon, Shepard will say: "Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.", to which Javik will respond: "I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words."

I know he doesnt say that if you're mostly renegade and choose that option, but still, why would Shepard have any doubt when telling Javik her goal is to destroy the Reapers, whether she's paragon or renegade?

Paragon wants to save as many lives as he can. Renegade kills anyone in Shepards way to his goals. Since Shepard says that with paragon being his dominant trait, it is a contradiction. Therefore, Javik says what he says. Nothing too complex here.

[DirtyPhoenix]

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...

Huh. One thing I've never noticed before after recruiting Javik, when he says those who share his goals of wiping out the Reapers are allies, and those who dont are enemies.

If you pick the renegade option, but are mostly paragon, Shepard will say: "Then I'd say you've found an ally. The goal of this ship is to wipe the Reapers from existence.", to which Javik will respond: "I do not believe you, Commander. Lying is a biological marker. There is doubt behind your words."

I know he doesnt say that if you're mostly renegade and choose that option, but still, why would Shepard have any doubt when telling Javik her goal is to destroy the Reapers, whether she's paragon or renegade?

Paragon wants to save as many lives as he can. Renegade kills anyone in Shepards way to his goals. Since Shepard says that with paragon being his dominant trait, it is a contradiction. Therefore, Javik says what he says. Nothing too complex here.

I agree.

[Arian Dynas]

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

The Citadel was simple, they wanted to ensure Udina's coup would be succuessful, then they could use him as a pupped ruler and gain the collective military powers of the council races. Wouldn't have worked in the long run though, Cerberus understimated Udina's craven nature, as well as the stubbornness of the councilors.

No, that's what Udina was after.  Cerberus might have told him that was why, but it couldn't have been their true motive.  TIM wants to control the Reapers, not destroy them.  You don't need a giant army to hax0rz them, you need a giant army to murderize them.

No, you need an army to gather the items needed for your goals of furthering the cause of human interests, as well as gathering the materials needed to activate the crucible. You must recall, Cerberus didn't have access to either the Crucible OR the necessary resources to make their own. The plans are worth exactly jack if you have no way to build it.

[Rifneno]

Arian Dynas wrote...

No, you need an army to gather the items needed for your goals of furthering the cause of human interests, as well as gathering the materials needed to activate the crucible. You must recall, Cerberus didn't have access to either the Crucible OR the necessary resources to make their own. The plans are worth exactly jack if you have no way to build it.

So their master plan was to usurp control of the Citadel, murder the heads of state, and then hope the other species' governments will back a racial supremacist terrorist organization rather than just, I don't know, maybe making that usurp attempt on the actual crucible that's being built regardless of their interference?  I don't buy it.  And considering TIM just shrugged off Udina's death and said he was expendable, their plans must not include him to any major degree.  Since having the only living councilor in their pocket wasn't important, it's safe to assume they didn't plan hiding the fact that they control the Citadel.  Which, again, means no government would help them.  Not even the Alliance.  If a bunch of terrorists laid seige to Washington DC, do you think the states would go "oh, damn.  Well, I guess the terrorists are running the show now.  What do you want, should we launch nukes at Israel?"  No, of course not.

No, there's definitely something else afoot.  We just don't know what.

[Legion109]

Rifneno wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

Yeah, did we ever learn why specifically Cerberus tried to take the Citadel?

Nope.  Not even a clue.  The only argument people have said for Omega is that they wanted free usage of the Omega-4 relay.  But that doesn't hold water IMO because they already had a deal in place with Aria.  It cost them some money, but I seriously doubt they hijacked Omega to save a few bucks.

I would put it down as TIM wanting exclusive use of the Omega Relay rather Than just to save a few bucks, also Aria presents a serious risk to TIM as she has stated she is Omega the mercs and civilians alike heed her words and if TIM did something to upset her well it wouldn't end well. TIM is pompous believes his goals and plans are so much higher then anyone else's(not unlike the Reapers).....

- Side note - Did anyone else think a Reaper should have fired on the Citadel after "The brat that shall not be named" said that the created ALWAYS rebel against the creator?

[I_am_a_Spoon]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but it struck me as a little odd when Shepard and Anderson were talking aboard the Citadel after entering the beam.

One mentions the overhanging cables to the other, and Anderson asks whether or not the enemy might be "trying to make a Reaper". Shepard answers with a yes. Possible allusion to indoctrination?

Then Anderson replies by saying "godamn abomination", in a way that sounds almost as if it's directed at Shepard...

Modifié par I_am_a_Spoon, 13 avril 2012 - 06:14 .

[Arian Dynas]

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

No, you need an army to gather the items needed for your goals of furthering the cause of human interests, as well as gathering the materials needed to activate the crucible. You must recall, Cerberus didn't have access to either the Crucible OR the necessary resources to make their own. The plans are worth exactly jack if you have no way to build it.

So their master plan was to usurp control of the Citadel, murder the heads of state, and then hope the other species' governments will back a racial supremacist terrorist organization rather than just, I don't know, maybe making that usurp attempt on the actual crucible that's being built regardless of their interference?  I don't buy it.  And considering TIM just shrugged off Udina's death and said he was expendable, their plans must not include him to any major degree.  Since having the only living councilor in their pocket wasn't important, it's safe to assume they didn't plan hiding the fact that they control the Citadel.  Which, again, means no government would help them.  Not even the Alliance.  If a bunch of terrorists laid seige to Washington DC, do you think the states would go "oh, damn.  Well, I guess the terrorists are running the show now.  What do you want, should we launch nukes at Israel?"  No, of course not.

No, there's definitely something else afoot.  We just don't know what.

hence why the OTHER possibility is to eliminate key alien leaders all at the same time, using the coup as a cover for the assasination attempt. TIM already is the sort of fellow to take advantage of any opening given to him, and I am sure he would love to destabilize the political standing of the citadel, leaving a power vaccum he can take advantage of. His plans didn't hinge on it, it was just an opening for an advantage he saw and chose to exploit.

Legion109 wrote...

- Side note - Did anyone else think a Reaper should have fired on the Citadel after "The brat that shall not be named" said that the created ALWAYS rebel against the creator?

 

Which is interesting enough on it's own, it's Task Manager actually being SELF contradicting, in addition to being a liar.

I_am_a_Spoon wrote...

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but it struck me as a little odd when Shepard and Anderson were talking aboard the Citadel after entering the beam. 

One mentions the overhanging cables to the other, and Anderson asks whether or not the enemy might be "trying to make a Reaper". Shepard answers with a yes. Possible allusion to indoctrination?

Then Anderson replies by saying "godamn abomination", in a way that sounds almost as if it's directed at Shepard...

  

Or it could just be a reference to the original ending in which Control was Shepard actually becoming a Reaper. Just playing devil's advocate here.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 13 avril 2012 - 06:20 .

[EpyonX3]

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

No, you need an army to gather the items needed for your goals of furthering the cause of human interests, as well as gathering the materials needed to activate the crucible. You must recall, Cerberus didn't have access to either the Crucible OR the necessary resources to make their own. The plans are worth exactly jack if you have no way to build it.

So their master plan was to usurp control of the Citadel, murder the heads of state, and then hope the other species' governments will back a racial supremacist terrorist organization rather than just, I don't know, maybe making that usurp attempt on the actual crucible that's being built regardless of their interference?  I don't buy it.  And considering TIM just shrugged off Udina's death and said he was expendable, their plans must not include him to any major degree.  Since having the only living councilor in their pocket wasn't important, it's safe to assume they didn't plan hiding the fact that they control the Citadel.  Which, again, means no government would help them.  Not even the Alliance.  If a bunch of terrorists laid seige to Washington DC, do you think the states would go "oh, damn.  Well, I guess the terrorists are running the show now.  What do you want, should we launch nukes at Israel?"  No, of course not.

No, there's definitely something else afoot.  We just don't know what.

The one thing that you guys are missing is that TIM didn't want the crucible built at all just because it had the potential to kill the reapers, which he didn't want. The reason for the attack was to kill the council and have Udina rule the other races. No one would have known Udina was behind it and there'd be no checks against him. He would then have the power to influence the construction of the Crucible.

[Arian Dynas]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

No, you need an army to gather the items needed for your goals of furthering the cause of human interests, as well as gathering the materials needed to activate the crucible. You must recall, Cerberus didn't have access to either the Crucible OR the necessary resources to make their own. The plans are worth exactly jack if you have no way to build it.

So their master plan was to usurp control of the Citadel, murder the heads of state, and then hope the other species' governments will back a racial supremacist terrorist organization rather than just, I don't know, maybe making that usurp attempt on the actual crucible that's being built regardless of their interference?  I don't buy it.  And considering TIM just shrugged off Udina's death and said he was expendable, their plans must not include him to any major degree.  Since having the only living councilor in their pocket wasn't important, it's safe to assume they didn't plan hiding the fact that they control the Citadel.  Which, again, means no government would help them.  Not even the Alliance.  If a bunch of terrorists laid seige to Washington DC, do you think the states would go "oh, damn.  Well, I guess the terrorists are running the show now.  What do you want, should we launch nukes at Israel?"  No, of course not.

No, there's definitely something else afoot.  We just don't know what.

The one thing that you guys are missing is that TIM didn't want the crucible built at all just because it had the potential to kill the reapers, which he didn't want. The reason for the attack was to kill the council and have Udina rule the other races. No one would have known Udina was behind it and there'd be no checks against him. He would then have the power to influence the construction of the Crucible.

He did want the Crucible, otherwise why steal the plans for his own use? He wanted the Crucible to Control the Reapers, bu you are correct in that he wanted exclusive access to it.

[Sajuro]

I heard TIM wanted Omega for safety reasons to contain the Pariahs, even though safety as a concern has always been between jack and squat. My theory is that Omega is either something from the first cycles or an early version of the Crucible a race never finished building and people just started living in.

[EpyonX3]

Arian Dynas wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

No, you need an army to gather the items needed for your goals of furthering the cause of human interests, as well as gathering the materials needed to activate the crucible. You must recall, Cerberus didn't have access to either the Crucible OR the necessary resources to make their own. The plans are worth exactly jack if you have no way to build it.

So their master plan was to usurp control of the Citadel, murder the heads of state, and then hope the other species' governments will back a racial supremacist terrorist organization rather than just, I don't know, maybe making that usurp attempt on the actual crucible that's being built regardless of their interference?  I don't buy it.  And considering TIM just shrugged off Udina's death and said he was expendable, their plans must not include him to any major degree.  Since having the only living councilor in their pocket wasn't important, it's safe to assume they didn't plan hiding the fact that they control the Citadel.  Which, again, means no government would help them.  Not even the Alliance.  If a bunch of terrorists laid seige to Washington DC, do you think the states would go "oh, damn.  Well, I guess the terrorists are running the show now.  What do you want, should we launch nukes at Israel?"  No, of course not.

No, there's definitely something else afoot.  We just don't know what.

The one thing that you guys are missing is that TIM didn't want the crucible built at all just because it had the potential to kill the reapers, which he didn't want. The reason for the attack was to kill the council and have Udina rule the other races. No one would have known Udina was behind it and there'd be no checks against him. He would then have the power to influence the construction of the Crucible.

He did want the Crucible, otherwise why steal the plans for his own use? He wanted the Crucible to Control the Reapers, bu you are correct in that he wanted exclusive access to it.

I always got a vibe that he didn't want it built at all. Otherwise he would have allied himself with the Aliance and then try to stab them in the back later when it was built. Could you imagine trusting TIM all the way to the control panel and then does a 180 on you and admits he was behind all of the evil thing cerberus was doing? He could have easily called it the works of a splinter indoctrinated group of cerberus soldiers to gain trust.

But anyway, I felt that he had his own way of controlling them and the crucible plans held the missing info he needed. He did succeed in achieving some kind of controlling powers, but not on the scale he desired. That's why he seemed more open to using it at the end, when he realized he couldn't do it without the crucible.

[EpyonX3]

Sajuro wrote...

I heard TIM wanted Omega for safety reasons to contain the Pariahs, even though safety as a concern has always been between jack and squat. My theory is that Omega is either something from the first cycles or an early version of the Crucible a race never finished building and people just started living in.

That would be an interesting twist to the origins of Omega, but I still think Bioware took the easy way out and made it that TIM took it over just so that Aria can still be in the game without needed to redo Omega.

[Rifneno]

Arian Dynas wrote...

hence why the OTHER possibility is to eliminate key alien leaders all at the same time, using the coup as a cover for the assasination attempt. TIM already is the sort of fellow to take advantage of any opening given to him, and I am sure he would love to destabilize the political standing of the citadel, leaving a power vaccum he can take advantage of. His plans didn't hinge on it, it was just an opening for an advantage he saw and chose to exploit.

So he thought the start of a Reaper invasion was a good time for terrorist hijinx? And Omega is what, a coincidence?

EpyonX3 wrote...

That would be an interesting twist to the origins of Omega, but I still think Bioware took the easy way out and made it that TIM took it over just so that Aria can still be in the game without needed to redo Omega.

*checks watch* Yep, been about 15 minutes since we heard "Bioware is lazy" as an ironically lazy way out of coming up with actual reasoning.

[Gernbuster]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I heard TIM wanted Omega for safety reasons to contain the Pariahs, even though safety as a concern has always been between jack and squat. My theory is that Omega is either something from the first cycles or an early version of the Crucible a race never finished building and people just started living in.

That would be an interesting twist to the origins of Omega, but I still think Bioware took the easy way out and made it that TIM took it over just so that Aria can still be in the game without needed to redo Omega.

I had the same idea, but the codex said, it was built in this cycle. My idea was that it is the lost Prothean crucible, and TIM would bring it in while the fleets are fighting the Reapers, or maybe that you would need three parts for the super power weapon, Citadel, Crucible and Omega.(If it had been older then the Protheans, maybe some sort of opposite to the Citadel)

Modifié par Gernbuster, 13 avril 2012 - 06:44 .

[Sajuro]

Gernbuster wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I heard TIM wanted Omega for safety reasons to contain the Pariahs, even though safety as a concern has always been between jack and squat. My theory is that Omega is either something from the first cycles or an early version of the Crucible a race never finished building and people just started living in.

That would be an interesting twist to the origins of Omega, but I still think Bioware took the easy way out and made it that TIM took it over just so that Aria can still be in the game without needed to redo Omega.

I had the same idea, but the codex said, it was built in this cycle. My idea was that is the lost Prothean crucible, and TIM would bring it in while the fleets are fighting the Reapers, or maybe that you would need three parts for the super power weapon, Citadel, Crucible and Omega.(If it had been older then the Protheans)

We know it is older because when the Reapers go to Omega in Graysons body in Retribution, they remark on how organics hapazardly built and how Omega changed since they last saw it. I would laugh if they did clarification and then released an Omega expansion where gaining Omega could change the crucible somehow, or maybe it was a proto citadel before with a less stupid catalyst.