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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#36701
Leto_Galt

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Lokanaiya wrote...

Leto_Galt wrote...

Just wanted to add something to the IDT I haven't seen discussed yet.

One of the signs you are being indoctrinated;
As time passes, they have feelings of "being watched"

There are a number of roving NPCs on the Citadel that eyeball you constantly once you get close to, or brush up against them.
The first one I noticed was a red faced Turian that wanders around the level with the C-sec and Specter office on it. I was panning the camera around for some reason and noticed him head tracking me as he was walking behind my back. It kind of made me jump and got me expecting a cut scene to a scripted event, but of course nothing happened.
From that moment on, that Turian's stare was fixed on me until I got onto the elevator and left. After that incident I always had the feeling that there was probably an NPC head-tracking my Shepard whether I noticed it or not.


Really? Creepy....I'm going to have to check that out next time I'm there. Do you remember what point in the game it was?



I believe its active through the entire game. I went and tested it on my second play through.
Find one of the two Turians that wander through the Citadel Embassies level. Once you bump into them they will try to always keep you in their sight.
Their heads don't spin around 360 degrees or anything like that, they just turn them as far as they can to try to keep track of you.

I think there is also a Turian that wanders outside Purgatory, and a Salarian on the Presidium Commons that act the same. There could be more, I haven't done allot of testing.
IF this was an attempt by bioware to give you the feeling of “being watched” I think it was a bit to subtle. I'm not sure why they would program it to only be active once you brush past an NPC. I'm assuming I probably bumped past the Turian earlier in my travels heading up to the specter office area.

Whether it was intentional or not it certainly did give me the feeling of “being watched”.

Modifié par Leto_Galt, 15 avril 2012 - 01:53 .


#36702
Rifneno

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Stegoceras wrote...

There is just one thing that came to mind lately about this Indoctrination Theory (which I don't support, but if it means it allows some people to cope with the ending, excellent). What bothers me is that people continuously batter this forum about how Bioware lied to them about their 16 different endings, yet the promise that this game would bring Shepard's story to a conclusive end (don't ask for an exact quote cause I shan't be bothered to look for one, but we all know they said this) is ignored by the IT supporter. For the record, the way I understand the Indoctrination Theory is that Shepard wakes up and the battle continuous (no end at all) or the even less logical that even though he was indoctrinated it destroyed the Reapers and thus we do get an end but it begs the question why the Reapers have a destroy option at all when it would be just as easy as having it blow up in Shepard's face.

Again, I don't mind at all if you support the theory, but please don't judge people who don't as fools for not seeing the 'obvious' signs you see.


First, you're telling us not to judge people right after heavily implying we only believe IT as a coping mechanism. You seem to want a civil discussion (unlike the majority of IT opponents we see lately) so I assume that wasn't intentional. But do think about that. Respect works both ways.

As for their unfulfilled promises about the ending, one of the big parts of IT is that most of us believe this ending isn't the real ending. We've believed since the theory was new that after they're done making it or have let enough people finish the game (that was their go-to response early on, "we don't want to comment until more people finish") that BW would release the real final parts of the game via DLC. This Extended Cut DLC is pretty much right in line with what we expected. If it is just a poor attempt to explain space magic (there can be no other type of attempt) then I completely agree: that's crap. Most of us feel that way from what I've gathered. We're not any more satisfied with the ending as it stands than anyone else.

And yes, you're right they did promise us a conclusive ending. That was one of a great many promises they gave us about the ending that never came to pass. Here's a couple more choice ones.

"It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them."

"[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers."

Bioware has been taking a lot of heat about all the lies they told regarding ME3. But if you look closely, the great majority of those are about the ending. If the ending we have now isn't really the ending, then all those comments they made make a lot more sense. That's one of the reasons I believe in IT.

Leto_Galt wrote...

I believe its active through the entire game. I went and tested it on my second play through.
Find one of the two Turians that wander through the Citadel Embassies level. Once you bump into them they will try to always keep you in their sight.
Their heads don't spin around 360 degrees or anything like that, they just turn them as far as they can to try to keep track of you.

I think there is also a Turian that wanders outside Purgatory, and a Salarian on the Presidium Commons that act the same. There could be more, I haven't done allot of testing.
IF this was an attempt by bioware to give you the feeling of “being watched” I think it was a bit to subtle. I'm not sure why they would program it to only be active once you brush past an NPC. I'm assuming I probably bumped past the Turian earlier in my travels heading up to the specter office area.

Whether it was intentional or not it certainly did give me the feeling of “being watched”.


Hmm. I wonder if that creepy guy on the Normandy is figured into it too. He always freaked me out. You guys know the one, right? Go to the third floor of the Normandy and go grab a drink or bathroom break while it's loading. When you come back there's this unnamed soldier standing next to Shepard. There's a circle to let you 'talk' with him but if you use it Shepard doesn't do anything at all. Instead, the guy salutes Shepard and wanders off again. I've always wondered what was up with that. Just seemed like pointless wierdness.

#36703
DangerousPuddy

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I was a believer, but now it seems people are just making it up as it goes. While I applaud your "enthusiasm", I highly doubt BioWare is intelligent enough to pull this off and more realistically able to pull it off with EA as well as the fan backlash. No company in their right mind would forgo sales like that, especially when they lose retained customers.

Modifié par DangerousPuddy, 15 avril 2012 - 02:19 .


#36704
Raistlin Majare 1992

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 You know regarding that part about the Rachni having huge consequences, I couldn't help but think how cool it would be if Shepard woke up from the rubble to see the Rachni queen near him, watching over/protecting him and making a remark of how he almost succumbed to the sour yellow note...

Hell even more cool could be if you choose control/synthesis and wake up indoctrinated/semi indoctrinated and the Rachni queen if she is alive engages in a kind of mental battle (like she speaks through corpses and the asari in me2) in a way linking Shepard to the Rachni hive mind to break him free of indoctrination thus sparing the queen giving the player a second enter chance at happy ending following control/synthesis.

I know it is far fetched but I really like the Rachni and so want to learn more about them and their queen.

#36705
Rifneno

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DangerousPuddy wrote...

I was a believe, but now it seems people are just making it up as it goes. While I applaud your "enthusiasm", I highly doubt BioWare is intelligent enough to pull this off and more realistically able to pull it off with EA as well as the fan backlash. No company in their right mind would forgo sales like that, especially when they lose retained customers.


And I applaud your "intelligent analysis". It's always good to get feedback that's "backed up by something other than 'cuz I'm right'." :whistle:

#36706
Raistlin Majare 1992

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DangerousPuddy wrote...

I was a believe, but now it seems people are just making it up as it goes. While I applaud your "enthusiasm", I highly doubt BioWare is intelligent enough to pull this off and more realistically able to pull it off with EA as well as the fan backlash. No company in their right mind would forgo sales like that, especially when they lose retained customers.


ME3 outsold ME2 just saying.

#36707
Stegoceras

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Rifneno wrote...
First, you're telling us not to judge people right after heavily implying we only believe IT as a coping mechanism. You seem to want a civil discussion (unlike the majority of IT opponents we see lately) so I assume that wasn't intentional. But do think about that. Respect works both ways.

Ah yes, sorry about that, english is not my native language and do ocassionally use wrong words, I ment no offense here and I excuse for the poor wording.

#36708
DangerousPuddy

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

DangerousPuddy wrote...

I was a believe, but now it seems people are just making it up as it goes. While I applaud your "enthusiasm", I highly doubt BioWare is intelligent enough to pull this off and more realistically able to pull it off with EA as well as the fan backlash. No company in their right mind would forgo sales like that, especially when they lose retained customers.


ME3 outsold ME2 just saying.


It's called long-term sales. If you think DA3 and ME4 (or equivalent) will pull of these numbers again my personal belief is you are mistaken.

ME3 is a big cash grab IMO. Thing is, it's short term. People learn by being burned twice.

#36709
Raistlin Majare 1992

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DangerousPuddy wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

DangerousPuddy wrote...


ME3 outsold ME2 just saying.


It's called long-term sales. If you think DA3 and ME4 (or equivalent) will pull of these numbers again my personal belief is you are mistaken.

ME3 is a big cash grab IMO. Thing is, it's short term. People learn by being burned twice.


I agree there, but the extended cut is for regrabbing that faith and I personally don't see how they can explain of the ending without IT or similar.

#36710
DangerousPuddy

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Rifneno wrote...

DangerousPuddy wrote...

I was a believe, but now it seems people are just making it up as it goes. While I applaud your "enthusiasm", I highly doubt BioWare is intelligent enough to pull this off and more realistically able to pull it off with EA as well as the fan backlash. No company in their right mind would forgo sales like that, especially when they lose retained customers.


And I applaud your "intelligent analysis". It's always good to get feedback that's "backed up by something other than 'cuz I'm right'." :whistle:


Didn't say I was right, key word: Believe.

But my business training otherwise leads me to believe that. Although they did ruffle the old saying 'bad publicity is better than no publicity" - hell they are even marketing it. I think most of their sales were ME2 generated (hype) and then appealing to a multiplayer/action oriented audience further broadened their target market.

But now the issue is retaining old customers - which is always cheaper - than new ones. Furthermore, with two injured franchises there is too much risk for future sales from this genre.

Either BioWare will release a brand-new series and game (non-rpg), or continue this one but a long-while down the road.

At least this is my take. I honestly hope Indoc is true though, but I doubt it. There are many coutners to it, as well - which I'm sure you have seen already.

#36711
Raistlin Majare 1992

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DangerousPuddy:

No we haven't actually seen all those counters unless you are referring the usual "bioware were lazy" which seems to be the only counter the anti IT people in this thread seem capable of even when we challenge them to mention all those counters.

Will you break the circle and bring up these counters so they can be discussed in here?

Anyway gotta go, got a plane to catch, someone else has to reply to you.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 15 avril 2012 - 02:30 .


#36712
DangerousPuddy

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

DangerousPuddy wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

DangerousPuddy wrote...


ME3 outsold ME2 just saying.


It's called long-term sales. If you think DA3 and ME4 (or equivalent) will pull of these numbers again my personal belief is you are mistaken.

ME3 is a big cash grab IMO. Thing is, it's short term. People learn by being burned twice.


I agree there, but the extended cut is for regrabbing that faith and I personally don't see how they can explain of the ending without IT or similar.


Agreed.

But this new faith is appeases easily swayed persons. Nothing wrong with that, I am looking forward to it as well because it will make whatever this ending is (hopefully) better.

Again, its a PR tactic - divide and conquer. A way of minimizing backlash for not providing brand new re-written endings. 

Sadly, most people don't realize this was already out of the question or high improbable. The logistics and budget contraints and time were already minimized on ME3 (why - I don't know, doens't make sense to limit the crown jewel of a franchise) so it will not happen after the fact, especially when ME3 has already outperformed ME1 and ME2.

#36713
ratzerman

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Hasn't checked thread in a few days.... sees Bioware tag... GASP! DEV POST!

*click*

Oh.... nevermind.

Modifié par ratzerman, 15 avril 2012 - 02:32 .


#36714
Stegoceras

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Can I just pose this question here for the sake of clarification on the theory; What is the reason behind the 5-10 minutes of cinematics after you chose and ending, if the story of Shepard is not progressing at that very moment? To show what Shepard's is imagining, wouldn't he imagine a bit of a brighter future? Also why does a small part of the Control ending vary from the Synthesis ending (mainly the Citadel blows up or not) if they would both result in the same indoctrination?

Modifié par Stegoceras, 15 avril 2012 - 02:45 .


#36715
paxxton

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Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I wonder if that creepy guy on the Normandy is figured into it too. He always freaked me out. You guys know the one, right? Go to the third floor of the Normandy and go grab a drink or bathroom break while it's loading. When you come back there's this unnamed soldier standing next to Shepard. There's a circle to let you 'talk' with him but if you use it Shepard doesn't do anything at all. Instead, the guy salutes Shepard and wanders off again. I've always wondered what was up with that. Just seemed like pointless wierdness.


There is another soldier on the second floor that wanders around and salutes to Shepard. It's like security in a supermarket - nothing out of ordinary.

#36716
NoSpin

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Stegoceras wrote...

Can I just pose this question here for the sake of clarification on the theory; What is the reason behind the 5-10 minutes of cinematics after you chose and ending, if the story of Shepard is not progressing at that very moment? To show what Shepard's is imagining, wouldn't he imagine a bit of a brighter future? Also why does a small part of the Control ending vary from the Synthesis (mainly the Citadel blows up or not) vary if they would both result in the same indoctrination?


You could say that Shepard is seeing what he wants to see, mainly that his crew is safe and that his actions stop the reapers.

Why does Control slightly vary from Synthesis? I don't think we have a good answer for that....the devs wanted a slightly different cinematic? Shepard himself believed that in one scenario the Citadel would explode and would not in the other?

#36717
DangerousPuddy

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

DangerousPuddy:

No we haven't actually seen all those counters unless you are referring the usual "bioware were lazy" which seems to be the only counter the anti IT people in this thread seem capable of even when we challenge them to mention all those counters.

Will you break the circle and bring up these counters so they can be discussed in here?

Anyway gotta go, got a plane to catch, someone else has to reply to you.


Have a good flight.

I have not delved myself too much into IT, but I can give you some counters to IT I think are viable based on concjecture and interpretation similar to IT overall:

- Destroy ending is renegade because you kill the Geth and Synthetics to save yourself (apparently) - not as a Harbinger trick
- Control ending is paragon because you sacrifice yourself so everyone lives (lol, doesn't work after the relay explosions)
- "Indoctrinated Presence Detected" for Kai Leng but not you (if of course this is "part of the indoctrination" then I cannot argue with this logic, it is belief - you cannot argue belief)
- TIM, Kai Leng exposed to a Reaper artifact and are controlled ALA Saren - why even give Shepard the choice to break their hold if he is indeed indoctrinated
- Dream sequences a result of stress and guilt of not being able to save everyone

Out of Game reasons:
- Fan Backlash
- Cost structure
- Rushed product in other areas (Journal, cinematics, bugs) can lead one to believe that this scale of implementation was not possible on the shortest dev-cycle of all three games

#36718
Falloutwarfare

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lex0r11 wrote...

Okay, i can't decide on the picture, so you'll have to choose.

Have to do another with EDI.

-snip-

-snip-


I choose the one with bender simple due to my love for bender and futurama

#36719
Stegoceras

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NoSpin wrote...

You could say that Shepard is seeing what he wants to see, mainly that his crew is safe and that his actions stop the reapers.

Why does Control slightly vary from Synthesis? I don't think we have a good answer for that....the devs wanted a slightly different cinematic? Shepard himself believed that in one scenario the Citadel would explode and would not in the other?

But in all honesty wouldn't the money and time spent on keeping up this ruse then better be spent on an actual ending presented to us in the final product and not in a later date DLC (which may or may not have cost us money if the backlash wasn't so big) and why are people actually okay with this if it is so? Cause in all fairness according to the Indoctrination theory the game comes to a grinding halt at the choice, everything beyond that is non-sensical fluff that could have been skipped and offers no extra value beyond possibly the ruse I mentioned earlier, but you could argue whether this is a solid bussiness plan or not in the first place.

Modifié par Stegoceras, 15 avril 2012 - 03:03 .


#36720
schneeland

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Just throwing in, because I started playing ME1 again: Kaidan comments about hearing a low hum from the mini mass relay in Citadel.

#36721
paxxton

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DangerousPuddy wrote...
- TIM, Kai Leng exposed to a Reaper artifact and are controlled ALA Saren - why even give Shepard the choice to break their hold if he is indeed indoctrinated


Shepard's indoctrination is still incomplete at this point so he can still break free if his will is strong enough.

Modifié par paxxton, 15 avril 2012 - 03:08 .


#36722
Guest_ConVito_*

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DangerousPuddy wrote...

- Destroy ending is renegade because you kill the Geth and Synthetics to save yourself (apparently) - not as a Harbinger trick
- Control ending is paragon because you sacrifice yourself so everyone lives (lol, doesn't work after the relay explosions)
- "Indoctrinated Presence Detected" for Kai Leng but not you (if of course this is "part of the indoctrination" then I cannot argue with this logic, it is belief - you cannot argue belief)
- TIM, Kai Leng exposed to a Reaper artifact and are controlled ALA Saren - why even give Shepard the choice to break their hold if he is indeed indoctrinated
- Dream sequences a result of stress and guilt of not being able to save everyone


1 - That's why it's a trick. If Harby portrayed Destroy as the "good" choice without any negative consequences, then Shepard would have no problem choosing it.
2 - Control is the ending TIM wanted, so even if the endings are to be taken at face value, I'd be very hesitant to choose what he wanted so readily.
3 - Javik (and possibly Vigil, I forget) explicitly said there were indoctrinated sleeper agents among the Protheans. If they couldn't be detected then, why would that detection protocol be any more effective now? Then there's the fact that SHEPARD ISN'T INDOCTRINATED. This entire theory revolves around an indoctrination ATTEMPT. For Shep, basically the framework is there from all the reaper crap he's been in contact with, but it hasn't been "activated" yet. That's what Harby is trying to do in the ending, according to IT.
4 - It's not that the reapers are actually giving Shep the choice to break the indoc attempt. Due to his "remarkably strong will" (according to Liara in ME1), he's strong enough to break through on his own. The reapers, in a last ditch effort to prevent that, disguise that opportunity as the least desirable outcome. And, again, SHEPARD ISN'T INDOCTRINATED.
5 - That one I'll give you. Not saying it can't be used as evidence. It can just be interpreted both ways. Basically, IT can still be true without the dreams as evidence.

@schneeland, Exactly. That's why I believe Vega's comment about the hum has some real significance. Even without Kaidan saying that, though, why would BioWare just put that line in for Vega without reason? It's not their style.

Modifié par ConVito, 15 avril 2012 - 03:10 .


#36723
Golferguy758

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The reason for seeing what is shown in the endings is that it's Shep's mind/Harbinger making it up to assure that whatever choice Shep made was "real".

For example, in control the starkid says the relays will remain, and the reapers will live. Seeing as how that's what's beign told to him Shep's mind goes along with it thinking that it's right. Then he sees his crew elsewhere on a paradise planet, safe from harm, because that's one of the things he'd want most. Hell, that paradise planet is comprised of all the details that you talk to your crew about; a safe planet, no fighting, a beach, serene beauty, a place that a small ship could just get lost out there. All these features of the planet are based off conversations you have with your crew.

Destroy's ending has the reaper child saying everything will blow up, as for why you'd see the bad ending with low EMS is can be assumed that Shepard knows what he's done hasn't been enough so his mind makes him see that everything loses, BUT the reapers are still destroyed.

Synthesis starkid/Harbinger says how everything will happen so Shep's mind shows him that's happening.

The big thing to note is that As Shepard you would not know that you are in a hallucination, so when you are making a choice you are assuming it's a real choice with real consequences. Think about it in real life terms. Say you are given a box that has a crank on the side of it. The person who gives you the box says that when you crank the box a soothing melody will come out of it. You have no idea what the box is, so you'd assume that it would be a soothing melody. Even if you never actually crank it you are most likely going to continue thinking that music will come out.

That make sense, or I can elaborate if you'd like

#36724
Guest_ConVito_*

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Golferguy758 wrote...

*snip*

For example, in control the starkid says the relays will remain...

*snip*


To be fair, the starkid never says the relays will stay in Control. He says afterward that, no matter what, "releasing the Citadel's energy" will destroy the relays.

#36725
delldo

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I may just be hearing things, but I will bring them up anyways. In the crew corders I randomly hear what sounds like male laughter and every now and then female laughter; they sound very similar to what a sitcoms audience laughter sounds like. At first I figured there was a TV show on or something or a group of soldiers joking around a bit, but nothing like that was going, they all seem to be very tense and stationary. By the way I had headphones on while hearing these and they did not appear to be directional.

Also, I find it odd that only specific turians follow your movements after you bump into them, but no other species standing or walking around does that...