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[Auresta]

JasonTan87 wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

 It was easy to say that they might have just missed these things and since this makes so much sense they'd go with it in the beginning, but there is just too many things that fit now. If all the people in this thread have come up with this conclusion from what we've discovered, do you really think that after X amount of years of development, no one on the ME team noticed these things?

THIS IS DELIBERATE.

And it's brilliant.

It will go down not only as one of the greatest game series in history, but the greatest reveal for the ending of that series.

Mass Effect could never go out on a whimper, it's going to go out on an earthshattering bang. Just like it should.

Keep in mind; with such an ending without a closure, it is very easy to see what we each want to see. It's very easy to read into the narrative and find things that are not there. Hope, combined with emotional desperation, makes a most persuasive force.  (This reminds me of TIM's own falling)

I myself am wary of giving the writers too much credit; especially in instances where there is the possibility of me deluding myself into making a masterpiece out of someone's sloppy work.  Traditionally, Mass Effect followed  fairly conventional soap-opera conventions.  Unlike the Matrix, which sought to question reality from the onset, we do not have this meta-narrative coming from the last two games.  Making the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 into a post-modern meta narrative that is an 'indoctrination' of the player; while entirely plausable, is unlikely.

The thing is, we can't tell if this is deliberate just yet.  I'm most willing to buy into this theory, but I can't help but ask myself: 

If this was really true, why hold the 'real ending' back?  Why not just release it with the rest of the game, and be credited for the stroke of genious? Why risk the fan backlash? Why look sloppy when you can look good right off?

Why troll us, their fans?

You know, they could have just told us in a press release, with a sly smile, that it's not over yet.  Then they wouldn't have any of this PR firestorm on their hands.

Even if it was true, the current state that ME3 was released in (supposedly a complete game out of the box) is also paramount to bad writing.  The narrative, as it is now, it violates the reader-writer contract by not offering the real ending to provide closure to the story. Even if there was an overarching meta-narrative embedded within, the writing must be consistant and clear enough for us to reach that conclusion without having a 'panel' to 'interpret' the ending for us. Mass Effect 3 has neither. 

The very fact that the 'panel' has to 'interpret' their vision to us shows how the narrative has failed to communicate the different levels of the narrative.

In addition; the whole crucible thing itself could have been handled more adequately. Hallucination is not an excuse for sloppy writing.  The writing for the crucible onwards; while brillant if this theory holds true; still feels sloppy and rushed. Imagine how much more convincing if they had a fluent narrative without the gigantic plot holes, and the Normandy had a proper reason for running away with your crew all on it.  It also end with Normandy getting knocked out of FTL, but not show the crew coming out of the Normandy on some random planet.

The fact that the ending feels rushed worries me; because such meta-narrative twists require a high level of finesse to pull off.  

What worries me the most is that people are losing their objectivity, calling what what may very well be a rushed conclusion 'a stroke of genius'.  We must never forget that Bioware is telling us a story, and the very fact that we are unable to see the structure of the meta-narrative clearly (if it even exists) shows an inability to communicate their artistic vision properly through the medium.

This. I am worried. I keep this in mind and while it is nice to cling onto this seemingly sound theory, I can't help but wonder.

[UrdnotGrunty2]

DrDetective wrote...

I was weirded out by the fact that my squad was nowhere to be seen, and the pistol had infinite ammo. Also, one shot bringing down the Illusive Man, who was clearly extremely altered by the Reapers, Grayson style. And, obviously, the Guardian existing at all.

Although, honestly, I'd be pretty pissed off if it turns out that was a dream sequence. I paid $74.14 for everything but the the ending of the game? No thanks.

Its not like you got an ending this way either.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

@BYNE: You do realize that - if you end up being right, you will become an internet celebrity?

[shimoyake]

TIM not taking Shepard out completely bothered me, too. >.< It makes sense if we accept that TIM was indoctrinated by the Mars mission, which is not a huge leap to take. If I recall, TIM even tells Kai Leng at one point to let Shepard be and to focus on his other goals. I felt like TIM essentially saying "Maybe next time" to Kai Leng was just to placate him. It felt a lot like TIM was handling the assassin with kid gloves.

TIM telling Eva to eliminate the VS... a ruthless move, but somewhat... out of the blue. All of Shep's allies are obstacles to TIM, but going after the VS at that exact moment... that felt downright PERSONAL. Getting an emotional rise out of Shepard would be the logical choice, especially if an indoctrinated TIM was being urged to set the stage for Shep's own brainwashing.

[G0thicRhino]

blooregard wrote...

Doctor Quinn wrote...

To add we don't know how great the prothean VI is at detecting indoctrination. It can prolly detect invasive indoctrination like Kai Leng where he was indoctrinated to the point that he thought reaper goggles were a great fashion choice. With Shepherd it was more subtle. In his case the Reapers were working on him to become more susceptible to indoctrination when the opportunity presents itself.

you know something? I remember vigil saying something about the protheans underestimating the effects of indoctronation its possible that the prothean VIs were only able to detect near husk levels of indoctronation (kai leng and saren) and indoctronation more subtle like what shepard seems to be suffering from would have been more difficult to notice

Also something I've thought about. To what extent does the VI detect indoctrination? 

[EmCeeMendez]

G0thicRhino wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

I think the people saying that Bioware isn't good enough/couldn't pull this off should really take a look at what they're saying. We're talking about the same people that created this world, crafted each of the games, including this one which everyone pretty much agrees is utterly fantastic until the last 10 minutes. They have more invested in this than even we do. This is their baby. They wouldn't undermine everything they've accomplished with the lackluster ending we have now. All of the evidence we've compiled isn't 'just coincidence' anymore, and we're not scrambling to find things to make this fit. They're not going to say "Hey, look at what these people came up with, let's run with that!" This was planned. There's a clear, deliberate and methodical, cohesive way to follow it to this conclusion. It was easy to say that they might have just missed these things and since this makes so much sense they'd go with it in the beginning, but there is just too many things that fit now. If all the people in this thread have come up with this conclusion from what we've discovered, do you really think that after X amount of years of development, no one on the ME team noticed these things?

THIS IS DELIBERATE.

And it's brilliant.

It will go down not only as one of the greatest game series in history, but the greatest reveal for the ending of that series.

Mass Effect could never go out on a whimper, it's going to go out on an earthshattering bang. Just like it should.

I 100% agree with this.
They want this storm of outrage. It shows how emotionally invested we all are in their games.
Bioware is telling us to think. They're saying "Hey, we know this doesn't make sense." 
The more we think and the more we look at everything, the more indoctrination seems to be the case.

The child. That no one else seems to pay attention to in the beginning. That Shep has nightmares about, which have increasingly more and more background whispering. That comes to Shep again at my point of most desperation and just "tells me how it is" and Shep just goes forth unquestioningly? That tells me that His destruction will also kill me? Why would that in any way shake Shep's resolve.

The hum. Vega points it out. Clear sign of indoctrination.

The Illusive Man. He never tries to take Shep completely out of the picture. How is he always one step ahead of  Shep? Where does he get his information? Is Shep somehow feeding him information subconciously?

The crew. They would never leave me, they wouldn't abandon the universe at the most important battle since... ever.

The "Grandfather." My view of that clip is that, it's the Reapers justifying Shepard's choice in his own mind. So that whatever he chose. Things worked out. He can rest. Thus, making him give up.

I was utterly crushed by the ending and didn't want anything to do with game for a few days, but the indoctrination just makes SO much sense that I decided to try a NG+ and see if something is different.

I'm just wrapping up le Krogan-Turian Alliance, so I'll let you all know if the NG+ makes any difference.

Me, giving Bioware a chance. Here's hoping. <3

We already know about the "From Ashes" DLC being partially on the physical disc. If and when an alternate ending is also unlocked via the primary disc, Harbinger will pop up going "Assuming direct conTROLLOLOLOLOLOL!!" >_<

[TheGoddess0fWar]

Please let this be true...please let this be true...please let this be true

[Dilandau3000]

JasonTan87 wrote...

Keep in mind; with such an ending without a closure, it is very easy to see what we each want to see. It's very easy to read into the narrative and find things that are not there. Hope, combined with emotional desperation, makes a most persuasive force.  (This reminds me of TIM's own falling)

Exactly. I agree there is a case to be made for the idea of it being a hallucination (most prominently the Shepard wakes up scene and the giant gaping plothole of the Normandy crash), but a lot of the other things are just people reading meaning into things because they want it to be there.

An inverted texture (1M1), a gameplay compromise (the magic gun that also appeared in the prologue), and a throwaway line about a hum that you can clearly hear in the game's soundtrack are not evidence, they are finding patterns because you want to see them.

Shepard was holding the wrong gun, including guns that I didn't have equipped or couldn't even use (based on class) in just about every cutscene in all three games. Are these guns also an indication that "something was wrong"?

You can make a case for the dream/indoctrination theory. But don't go looking for evidence where there is none, because you're just deluding yourself.

[El Diablo]

Sajuro wrote...

As for choosing the other two options, maybe you could have dialogue based on that when you wake up like "The Illusive Man was right" or "We should try and work with them, they are only doing things to help us" Or maybe just new dialogue paths and auto dialogue to go along with the fact the Reapers are influencing Shep's thought process which could result in him attempting to sabotage the crucible and either killing himself or getting killed by one of your squadmates.
After Reapers are destroyed in Shepard was indoctrinated, Shepard's face is covered in the husk marks like TIM's was in the dream.
Anderson: The galaxy is going to tear itself part as soon as they learn what Shepard did.
-TIM walks up, marks still on his face, but in control of himself due to Reaper destruction-
TIM: Then make sure they don't, learning Shepard worked with the Reapers will destroy humanity.
-TIM puts sealed Helmet on Shepard to hide the damage-
Anderson: We can't just cover it up that the plan almost failed and now Humanity's greatest hero is dead!
-TIM draws on his cigarette-
TIM: He died stopping me from selling Humanity to the Reapers. The Galaxy already hates me and everything I am Anderson, this way the Hero of Humanity becomes a Martyr rather than a Traitor.
-Anderson pulls out gun and points it at TIM-
Anderson: I can't let you get away, not after all you've done. You almost cost us the war!
-TIM drops his cigarette and steps on it to put it out-
TIM: I know, and like I said before I will advance humanity at any cost, even if it's my life. But just know Cerberus as an ideal will always exist, and sooner or later there will be a new Cerberus, even if it is under a different name... Humanity will always have a watchdog.
-Anderson shoots and kills TIM-

This i would be kinda ok with. It does resolve the issue where the developer pretty much tricks you into a game over. Still it would be better if the choise for the ending was a fair and educated CHOISE instead of a Test on how cunning the player is.

For info. I picked the Synthesis ending, It seemed the best way to solve the frankly idiotic nature of the war as presented (that Organics and synthetics must always be at war, or even if that were true that that is a bad thing.)

[Phydeaux314]

Believe me, I've been crawling around the game files ever since I ran into this theory. A few interesting things that I either missed on my main playthrough or that were cut from the game, but nothing that supports or denies the theory yet.

For example, Giana Parisini (I know I spelled that wrong) has some lines - or, at least, her VA does some more work.

[humes spork]

JasonTan87 wrote...

Traditionally, Mass Effect followed  fairly conventional soap-opera conventions.  Unlike the Matrix, which sought to question reality from the onset, we do not have this meta-narrative coming from the last two games.  Making the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 into a post-modern meta narrative that is an 'indoctrination' of the player; while entirely plausable, is unlikely.

Mass Effect has always been a metanarrative -- that is to say, it's always been a game about science fiction as much as it has been science fiction itself. The first game was a paean to 80s sci-fi, and the second a paean to 90s sci-fi. Right down to level and art design and music, each game was absolutely permeated with the influence of science fiction of that era. By extension, ME3 is a paean to 00s sci-fi and if nothing else 00s science fiction has been absolutely rife with postmodern influence.

[Citizen Q]

Wish I could believe this on folks, I really do, but I just don't have very much faith left in Bioware right now.

To any Bioware people who may read this, I REALLY hope I'm wrong, been one of your biggest fans since all the way back to Baldur's Gate, but the path you've been on recently has been mind boggling to me.

I would really love for you to prove me wrong, I hope you do, because the shame of not trusting you would be nothing compared to knowing that I can no longer trust you.

Modifié par Citizen Q, 12 mars 2012 - 07:38 .

[TheNexus]

Something I just thought of, and is probably answered somewhere in these 150 pages, but I'll shoot anyway.

If this is all a dream after Shepard is shot by Harbinger, than why does he die if he doesn't shoot the husks?

Also, someone asked why Harbinger didn't stay to "finish the job". He probably thought Shepard was dead or dying. Reapers only attack things that are a threat (obviously they kill everything, but after something is neutralized they de-prioritize it), and Shepard was probably perceived to be neutralized.

For the record I'm not a fan of the endings. But playing devil's advocate will help strengthen some of these arguments.

Modifié par TheNexus, 12 mars 2012 - 07:40 .

[Dorfgonewild81]

So with the talk about the "1M1" stuff, I decided I would have a little fun and go check out the game model for the piece it is on and see if it was mirrored, created on purposed to be backwards etc.  The piece is called "Antenna" and here is 4 shots of the model being rotated:

i.imgur.com/cvBKD.jpg

i.imgur.com/Q0zxd.jpg

i.imgur.com/gfo3p.jpg

i.imgur.com/3MM7P.jpg

So it is either deliberately made that way or sloppely (is that even a word?  it is now) put in there.  So not sure whose side of the discussion it helps, but thought I would just do the investigation anyways 

edit:  broken links, bah!

Modifié par Dorfgonewild81, 12 mars 2012 - 07:40 .

[Doctor Quinn]

Maybe the secret ending is you turn into a big ass reaper and just mop the floor with mankind.

[young fox]

• Denial — "This can't be the real ending. It must have been a hallucination."
  
  
• Anger — "Why is this ending so bad? Couldn't they have made a better one?"
  
  
• Bargaining — "Just give me an alternate ending DLC, BioWare. Please. I'll pay anything."
  
  
• Depression
  — "Why even bother? This was the worst ending I've ever seen to a videogame series. It makes me sad."
  
  
• Acceptance — "So the ending was bad. At least the rest of the game was good. I'll just stop before the ending when I replay it and craft my own headcanon for the end. There are other good sci-fi games out there too."

[Sajuro]

Dilandau3000 wrote...

Oddlyotter wrote...

http://www.globalgam...23&d=1331451986

For those who lost these pictures in the explosion of posts. That's the 1m1 things I've seen so far that have been screenshotted.

That to me just says they were sloppy with the textures, which wouldn't exactly be the first time.

why would there be a 1m1 in the first place if it is a hidden part of the citadel?

[blooregard]

G0thicRhino wrote...

blooregard wrote...

Doctor Quinn wrote...

To add we don't know how great the prothean VI is at detecting indoctrination. It can prolly detect invasive indoctrination like Kai Leng where he was indoctrinated to the point that he thought reaper goggles were a great fashion choice. With Shepherd it was more subtle. In his case the Reapers were working on him to become more susceptible to indoctrination when the opportunity presents itself.

you know something? I remember vigil saying something about the protheans underestimating the effects of indoctronation its possible that the prothean VIs were only able to detect near husk levels of indoctronation (kai leng and saren) and indoctronation more subtle like what shepard seems to be suffering from would have been more difficult to notice

Also something I've thought about. To what extent does the VI detect indoctrination? 

well I'm pretty sure vigil knew saren was indoctronated from the smell of him entering the archives so kai leng, illsuive man levels of indoctronation are pretty obvious levels but in that same conversation vigil said their own people would enter refugee camps and then alert the reapers to their presence so my guess is Thessia levels of shepard indoctronation are too low for a prothean VI to detect so chances are the protheans rushed an indoctronation detector into productions but because it was so rapidly created it could only figure out the more heavily indoctronated people like saren while believing others to be safe and trust worthy like shepard

[Linus108]

TheNexus wrote...

Something I just thought of, and is probably answered somewhere in these 150 pages, but I'll shoot anyway.

If this is all a dream after Shepard is shot by Harbinger, than why does he die if he doesn't shoot the husks?

Also, someone asked why Harbinger didn't stay to "finish the job". He probably thought Shepard was dead or dying. Reapers only attack things that are a threat, and Shepard was probably perceived to be neutralized.

For the record I'm not a fan of the endings. But playing devil's advocate will help strengthen some of these arguments.

Not saying I 100% believe this theory.

But I don't think Shepard really dies there, it's just..apart of the game sequence. I mean, you need to complete that sequence in the game. Not sure if that really makes sense.

Bascially, I don't necessarily think your character dies there. It's just that, you failed the sequence and you need to reload. 

[Auresta]

Dorfgonewild81 wrote...

So with the talk about the "1M1" stuff, I decided I would have a little fun and go check out the game model for the piece it is on and see if it was mirrored, created on purposed to be backwards etc.  The piece is called "Antenna" and here is 4 shots of the model being rotated:

i.imgur.com/cvBKD.jpg
i.imgur.com/Q0zxd.jpg
i.imgur.com/gfo3p.jpg
i.imgur.com/3MM7P.jpg

So it is either deliberately made that way or sloppely (is that even a word?  it is now) put in there.  So not sure whose side of the discussion it helps, but thought I would just do the investigation anyways 

..interesting and kind of sad

[bozonbob]

Tocquevillain wrote...

Harorrd wrote...

magic armor

magic gun with unlimited ammo

magic breath machine

Magic machine that destroys the galaxy

Yeha i hope it was a dream

In all likelihood, Bioware gave you the "magic gun" and "magic armor" because at that point in the story, narrative was more important than gameplay. 

Magic breath machine has already been discussed, mass effect fields can trap atmosphere, just like Palaven.

If that is the case why did I have to wear a helmet in ME1 while I fought along the outside of the citidel?  To me this was the most jaring part of speaking with the Reaper Child.  Of course during the original conversation I had no idea that I was about to witness the Normandy apparently being away from Earth in hyperspace or something and then luckily crashing on some random garden planet.  The odds of that occurring have to be astronomically low.

[krystalevenstar]

TheNexus wrote...

Something I just thought of, and is probably answered somewhere in these 150 pages, but I'll shoot anyway.

If this is all a dream after Shepard is shot by Harbinger, than why does he die if he doesn't shoot the husks?

Also, someone asked why Harbinger didn't stay to "finish the job". He probably thought Shepard was dead or dying. Reapers only attack things that are a threat (obviously they kill everything, but after something is neutralized they de-prioritize it), and Shepard was probably perceived to be neutralized.

For the record I'm not a fan of the endings. But playing devil's advocate will help strengthen some of these arguments.

Don't they say if you die in a dream you die in real life? If Shepard is imaginine he/she's been killed by a husk, maybe she perishes from the blast, essentially losing the will to fight.

Also, we're working on the theory that this is a dream right? So Shepard is imagining Harbinger flying away. For all we know, if this theory pans out and we wake up in the rubble, we're still going to be staring Harbinger in the face.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Picture it. After seeing the so-called ending, from going into the Citadel to watching the Normandy escape, Shepard wakes up for real. He gets up and moves forward as before, except this time, he and Anderson succeed. They slump down together and have their cool friendship talk with one another, and then they watch as the crucible activates and the tide of the battle turns.

"We did it, Shepard..."

Who between the two of them lives or dies depends on how you played, of course, but the important thing is this.

After all of the planets have been ravaged and billions of lives across every intelligent species has been lost, our heroes finally prevailed, and the galaxy is saved.

Cut to various things, like reuniting with your love interest, Admiral Hackett getting a medal or something.  Moving to Rannoch to live with Tali, taking a vacation with Garrus, sharing a beer with Wrex, or whatever.

Modifié par Neverwinter_Knight77, 12 mars 2012 - 07:45 .

[Outlaw704]

Mr.Snithums wrote...

TamiBx wrote...

*snip*

[Insert Shepard Husk-looking pictures here]

Honestly, when the spoiler about the ending came out (before the game came out) on 4chan and I read that you could become a reaper or control it, I thought "wtf are they talking about?! We have to kill them no matter what! Wouldn't that mean that the reapers won? :blink:" 

Guess...we get to pick if we wanna become a husk  

Do remember that because of the events of Mass Effect 2, Shepard had to be largely rebuilt from scratch. So these pictures could appear to be revealing Shepard being turned into a husk, or it could also simply be the synthetic skin atop his/her body disintegrating. While they kept most of his/her basic structure I do believe much of the body had to be artificially reconstructed using synthetic parts. While I don't know if this would extend to the entire muscle system of the human body, I'd be more suprised by anything remaining intact following an atmospheric reentry in nothing but military-grade combat armor. We know that core components of the body did survive including the brain and heart so its not easy to say.

Sorry, I'm new to the topic and I don't mean to dash any hopes, just trying to keep things in perspective.

True, but one thing you are forgetting is that if you are full renegade Sheps eyes turn red.. and his scarring is always red... Never is the glowing showed to be huskified blue..

[Berkilak]

Linus108 wrote...

TheNexus wrote...

Something I just thought of, and is probably answered somewhere in these 150 pages, but I'll shoot anyway.

If this is all a dream after Shepard is shot by Harbinger, than why does he die if he doesn't shoot the husks?

Also, someone asked why Harbinger didn't stay to "finish the job". He probably thought Shepard was dead or dying. Reapers only attack things that are a threat, and Shepard was probably perceived to be neutralized.

For the record I'm not a fan of the endings. But playing devil's advocate will help strengthen some of these arguments.

Not saying I 100% believe this theory.

But I don't think Shepard really dies there, it's just..apart of the game sequence. I mean, you need to complete that sequence in the game. Not sure if that really makes sense.

Bascially, I don't necessarily think your character dies there. It's just that, you failed the sequence and you need to reload. 

Precisely. The same reason you die if you fail one of those turret segments or fail to protect Eve. You didn't die. You just failed in what the game demanded you succeed at.