57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Lokanaiya]

OdanUrr wrote...
3) I know there's more to PTSD than that, but is it so difficult to believe that Shepard is having these dreams as a result of everything he's been through? The whispers are dialogue lines from fallen comrades, and the kid represents someone he couldn't save. It's not a stretch to assume Shepard feels guilty about everyone he's not been able to save. As for Arrival, Shepard never comes into contact with Object Rho if you start a new game without importing a save. What happens then?

3. If he was going to have dreams about everything he's been through, why not after the suicide mission and the human Reaper? Especially if he lost someone. Even if the writers hadn't thought about that in ME2, it wouldn't have been to hard to mention it at the beginning of the game or to your LI. Also, dreams about feeling guilty for lost people would probably include more than dialogue lines from them. If Shep's feeling guilty for not saving everyone, shouldn't his dreams include people like Mordin, Thane, Legion, the squadmate that didn't make it off Virmire, and anyone else who's died? But it just has that stupid kid, so I find it unlikely that it's guilt over lost friends or the horror of what he's endured.

[balance5050]

 I'm sorry but I just have to regurgitate the "1M1" bit on the citadel. I was just playing MP in "Firebase Dagger" when I noticed these antennas:







There are 3 others I beleive on the same level, all with forward facing script on both sides.

Now I realize that this isn't the exact same asset but the writing is forward-facing on both sides. So this would mean that the specific asset used on the Citadel is forward facing on one side and backward facing on the other side. If Epyon could go behind the asset in the hallway I think that would prove that they at least had the no how to not make a mistake like that... considering Bioware has been making video games for over 15 years.

To further dig into this subject, I'm wondering how many eyes this had to pass through. It's not like there was no testing for the end, it's not like the guy framing the starchild sequence and they guy who has to match up the lip syncing just stood by without seeing it. It wasn't a big level where things like that are overlooked. I can't believe that they ALL were wearing blindfolds while programming this sequence.

In conclusion I would like to state that the backwards "1M1" is backwards on one side and forwards on the other side, further more I would like to conclude that it is a singular asset being used throughout the level. When we hold it up to all the other similar assets found in both the single player and multi player aspects of the game, the backwards "1M1" is an anomaly that shouldn't just be chalked up to laziness. 

Modifié par balance5050, 18 avril 2012 - 02:41 .

[KevShep]

OdanUrr wrote...

KevShep wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

KevShep wrote...

BTW, why would it make since to end it like it is if it was the I.T.?

Because everything that happens after Shepard makes his choice is for the benefit of the player and not Shepard. It's there to tell us (the player) what the outcome of our choice was. If indoctrination is complete upon choosing, there's no reason why Harbinger should show Shepard things that he couldn't possibly see anyway. It defeats the purpose of the illusion.

They (Bioware) cant indoctrinate YOUR Shepard without indoctrinating YOU as well! Remember that Mass Effect is a series that is about you and Shepard being the same person.

Yes, yes, but what I'm saying is that there are certain scenes in the game that are not meant for Shepard to see but for the player. For instance, back in ME1, Sovereign and the Geth attack the Citadel while Shepard was still on Ilos. There are times when Shepard and the player are the same person, and times when there's a disconnect so the player can understand the overarching story. In ME3, we are Shepard up to the point we choose but after that, when the .bik movies start playing, we're back to being the player/spectator as opposed to being the player/Shepard.

Am I making any sense?

Yes you are but like I said...They( Bioware) DONT want you to know the truth because your being indoctrinated.

My question to you is...How would they pull off trying to indoctrinate YOU if not by making it all "SEEM" real?

[Golferguy758]

OdanUrr wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

I think he's referring to the little greyed out slideshow. It shows Liara in front of the monitors, Joker tipping his hat, and Anderson smiling. you always get those three regardless of your LI.

I'd also point out that synthesis made Joker's hat synthetic. I laughed so hard at that. It's alive! 

Nope, there are also .bik movies for Ashley and Kaidan.

Odd. i always got Liara, Joker, and Anderson even when I romanced Kaiden/Ashley.

Strange,

[EpyonX3]

OdanUrr wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

I think he's referring to the little greyed out slideshow. It shows Liara in front of the monitors, Joker tipping his hat, and Anderson smiling. you always get those three regardless of your LI.

I'd also point out that synthesis made Joker's hat synthetic. I laughed so hard at that. It's alive! 

Nope, there are also .bik movies for Ashley and Kaidan.

Yeah I got Ashley when she was my LI. Liara seems to be the default if you don't rmoance anyone.

[OdanUrr]

Lokanaiya wrote...

3. If he was going to have dreams about everything he's been through, why not after the suicide mission and the human Reaper? Especially if he lost someone. Even if the writers hadn't thought about that in ME2, it wouldn't have been to hard to mention it at the beginning of the game or to your LI. Also, dreams about feeling guilty for lost people would probably include more than dialogue lines from them. If Shep's feeling guilty for not saving everyone, shouldn't his dreams include people like Mordin, Thane, Legion, the squadmate that didn't make it off Virmire, and anyone else who's died? But it just has that stupid kid, so I find it unlikely that it's guilt over lost friends or the horror of what he's endured.

I don't know about the beginning but at some point in the game Shepard does mention he didn't question what had happened in ME2 (his death and resurrection) because he was focused on completing the mission. Even in ME2 when you and Liara talk aboard the Normandy he says something about not being able to mourn.

They are all there as whispers. Someone must've figured it was cheaper that way.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

 I'm sorry but I just have to regurgitate the "1M1" bit on the citadel. I was just playing MP in "Firebase Dagger" when I noticed these antennas:


There are 3 others I beleive on the same level, all with forward facing script on both sides.

Now I realize that this isn't the exact same asset but the writing is forward-facing on both sides. So this would mean that the specific asset used on the Citadel is forward facing on one side and backward facing on the other side. If Epyon could go behind the asset in the hallway I think that would prove that they at least had the no how to not make a mistake like that... considering Bioware has been making video games for over 15 years.

To further dig into this subject, I'm wondering how many eyes this had to pass through. It's not like there was no testing for the end, it's not like the guy framing the starchild sequence and they guy who has to match up the lip syncing just stood by without seeing it. It wasn't a big level where things like that are overlooked. I can't believe that they ALL were wearing blindfolds while programming this sequence.

In conclusion I would like to state that the backwards "1M1" is backwards on one side and forwards on the other side, further more I would like to conclude that it is a singular asset being used throughout the level. When we hold it up to all the other similar assets found in both the single player and multi player aspects of the game, the backwards "1M1" is an anomaly that shouldn't just be chalked up to laziness. 

I'm going to dig into this tomorrow. I'm going to have to flycam.

[OdanUrr]

KevShep wrote...

Yes you are but like I said...They( Bioware) DONT want you to know the truth because your being indoctrinated.

My question to you is...How would they pull off trying to indoctrinate YOU if not by making it all "SEEM" real?

But then that wouldn't be indoctrination now, would it? That would be Bioware trying to fool you into believing the endings were real by manipulating the whole player/spectator setup.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

 I'm sorry but I just have to regurgitate the "1M1" bit on the citadel. I was just playing MP in "Firebase Dagger" when I noticed these antennas:


There are 3 others I beleive on the same level, all with forward facing script on both sides.

Now I realize that this isn't the exact same asset but the writing is forward-facing on both sides. So this would mean that the specific asset used on the Citadel is forward facing on one side and backward facing on the other side. If Epyon could go behind the asset in the hallway I think that would prove that they at least had the no how to not make a mistake like that... considering Bioware has been making video games for over 15 years.

To further dig into this subject, I'm wondering how many eyes this had to pass through. It's not like there was no testing for the end, it's not like the guy framing the starchild sequence and they guy who has to match up the lip syncing just stood by without seeing it. It wasn't a big level where things like that are overlooked. I can't believe that they ALL were wearing blindfolds while programming this sequence.

In conclusion I would like to state that the backwards "1M1" is backwards on one side and forwards on the other side, further more I would like to conclude that it is a singular asset being used throughout the level. When we hold it up to all the other similar assets found in both the single player and multi player aspects of the game, the backwards "1M1" is an anomaly that shouldn't just be chalked up to laziness. 

I'm going to dig into this tomorrow. I'm going to have to flycam.

Yeah, I asked cause I play on 360 (I know, I know), I tried to look myself but couldn't see it clearly.

[Lokanaiya]

This has probably been mentioned before, but I realized a while ago that Shepard, as far as I know, would never have seen blue standing for paragon and red for renegade... the closest he would have come would have been TIM's sun at the end of ME2, and then it would just be a cool change to the background for who-knows-why. If you're renegade, you do get the red scars, but again, that probably wouldn't be more than a "huh, that's weird" and certainly wouldn't include blue as paragon. As far as I know, there are no other game-world examples of red renegade and blue paragon that Shepard would know. Thus, it seems that the colors are solely for our, the player's, benefit. More evidence for the "indoctrinate the player" theory, I suppose. Just wanted to throw this out there since I hadn't seen anyone else discussing it.

[n00bsauce2010]

OdanUrr wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Yes you are but like I said...They( Bioware) DONT want you to know the truth because your being indoctrinated.

My question to you is...How would they pull off trying to indoctrinate YOU if not by making it all "SEEM" real?

But then that wouldn't be indoctrination now, would it? That would be Bioware trying to fool you into believing the endings were real by manipulating the whole player/spectator setup.

Are you back to talking about the post-decision cutscenes? If they're trying to fool us into thinking the endings were real.. how would it not be indoctrination?

[Rifneno]

OdanUrr wrote...

2) It's a bit selective about what it tries to explain. For instance, it would explain Shepard having TIM's eyes in the end, but it wouldn't explain how the Catalyst fits into ME1, it just writes him off entirely. And I agree, synthesis is downright ridiculous, how can an energy pulse re-write DNA and instantaneously trigger mutations that don't result in the subject's death? Worse, how can it turn a synthetic into a hybrid?

3) I know there's more to PTSD than that, but is it so difficult to believe that Shepard is having these dreams as a result of everything he's been through? The whispers are dialogue lines from fallen comrades, and the kid represents someone he couldn't save. It's not a stretch to assume Shepard feels guilty about everyone he's not been able to save. As for Arrival, Shepard never comes into contact with Object Rho if you start a new game without importing a save. What happens then?

2) What do you mean by "It"? IT? IT isn't selective about it tries to explain. It explains damn near everything that's wrong with ME3. It doesn't explain the catalyst's role in ME1 because he's not real. It's just Harbinger trying to trick Shepard. IT fills almost every plot hole and I can't think of any that it opens.

3) Uhh yes, it is so difficult to believe that Shepard is having PTSD dreams full of indoctrination symptoms right after Bioware showed us very clearly that the symptoms manifest in dreams. Shepard is experiencing pretty much every known symptom of indoctrination. A couple of symptoms of indoctrination are also symptoms of PTSD. Shepard has no PTSD symptoms other than the ones that are common to indoctrination. And you're pointing to PTSD? If this was an episode of House and you said that to Hugh Laurie, he'd beat you with his cane. If someone goes to the doctor in Chicago with a fever, headaches, and a cough do you think A) cold or flu, viral hemorrhagic fever?

Golferguy758 wrote...

I think he's referring to the little greyed out slideshow. It shows Liara in front of the monitors, Joker tipping his hat, and Anderson smiling. you always get those three regardless of your LI.

Speculation: I think it's because those are characters important to Shepard throughout the series that are guaranteed to be alive.

[Lokanaiya]

OdanUrr wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

3. If he was going to have dreams about everything he's been through, why not after the suicide mission and the human Reaper? Especially if he lost someone. Even if the writers hadn't thought about that in ME2, it wouldn't have been to hard to mention it at the beginning of the game or to your LI. Also, dreams about feeling guilty for lost people would probably include more than dialogue lines from them. If Shep's feeling guilty for not saving everyone, shouldn't his dreams include people like Mordin, Thane, Legion, the squadmate that didn't make it off Virmire, and anyone else who's died? But it just has that stupid kid, so I find it unlikely that it's guilt over lost friends or the horror of what he's endured.

I don't know about the beginning but at some point in the game Shepard does mention he didn't question what had happened in ME2 (his death and resurrection) because he was focused on completing the mission. Even in ME2 when you and Liara talk aboard the Normandy he says something about not being able to mourn.

They are all there as whispers. Someone must've figured it was cheaper that way.

He was just lounging on Earth for over a year. There would probably have been time to think things over, especially resurrection and the human Reaper. Doesn't look like he was doing anything else.

[OdanUrr]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Are you back to talking about the post-decision cutscenes? If they're trying to fool us into thinking the endings were real.. how would it not be indoctrination?

Again, I ask, under IT, what is the point of the post-decision cutscenes?

[OdanUrr]

Lokanaiya wrote...

He was just lounging on Earth for over a year. There would probably have been time to think things over, especially resurrection and the human Reaper. Doesn't look like he was doing anything else.

Maybe he did think about that, but we're not shown much of his incarceration until the time comes to leave Earth.

[n00bsauce2010]

OdanUrr wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Are you back to talking about the post-decision cutscenes? If they're trying to fool us into thinking the endings were real.. how would it not be indoctrination?

Again, I ask, under IT, what is the point of the post-decision cutscenes?

Manifestations within Shep's mind. Those manifestations come through implanted ideas (by the reapers). If the Catalyst kid just told us the potential results of our choice (in an indoctrination induced dream) it wouldn't be hard for shep to create those results in his/her mind.

[balance5050]

OdanUrr wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Are you back to talking about the post-decision cutscenes? If they're trying to fool us into thinking the endings were real.. how would it not be indoctrination?

Again, I ask, under IT, what is the point of the post-decision cutscenes?

That's how Shepard is interpreting the ending you chose for him.

[KevShep]

OdanUrr wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Are you back to talking about the post-decision cutscenes? If they're trying to fool us into thinking the endings were real.. how would it not be indoctrination?

Again, I ask, under IT, what is the point of the post-decision cutscenes?

If they had not put that in there then people would say that the end is not complete and the illusion has failed and so too has indoctrination. They have to indoctrinate the player as well as Shepard.

[OdanUrr]

KevShep wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Are you back to talking about the post-decision cutscenes? If they're trying to fool us into thinking the endings were real.. how would it not be indoctrination?

Again, I ask, under IT, what is the point of the post-decision cutscenes?

If they had not put that in there then people would say that the end is not complete and the illusion has failed and so too has indoctrination. They have to indoctrinate the player as well as Shepard.

What I'm saying is that indoctrinating the player alone is not possible because indoctrination is an ingame device that works within the confines of the ME universe. What you're saying that the cutscenes are there because otherwise the end would not be complete is playing on something completely different and it's the player/spectator mechanic I've mentioned before, which is an out-of-game mechanic.

[OdanUrr]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Manifestations within Shep's mind. Those manifestations come through implanted ideas (by the reapers). If the Catalyst kid just told us the potential results of our choice (in an indoctrination induced dream) it wouldn't be hard for shep to create those results in his/her mind.

Okay, what purpose do these manifestations serve?

[balance5050]

OdanUrr wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Manifestations within Shep's mind. Those manifestations come through implanted ideas (by the reapers). If the Catalyst kid just told us the potential results of our choice (in an indoctrination induced dream) it wouldn't be hard for shep to create those results in his/her mind.

Okay, what purpose do these manifestations serve?

You know how when you die your brain get's overloaded with DMT (the dream chemical)? You basically have a super intense trip when you die. And much like taking a hallucinagenic, your inner thought/hopes/doubts seem to manifest themselves in the trip/dream/hallucination. Shep might think that the reapers will be stopped no matter what he chooses, but the Shep Alive scene would be anobvious indicator that he's wrong about some thing, or rather LYING about some things.  

[n00bsauce2010]

OdanUrr wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Manifestations within Shep's mind. Those manifestations come through implanted ideas (by the reapers). If the Catalyst kid just told us the potential results of our choice (in an indoctrination induced dream) it wouldn't be hard for shep to create those results in his/her mind.

Okay, what purpose do these manifestations serve?

Well.. with either Shep picking control or synthesis.. he has some kind of reaper influence and is indoctrinated to some extent. So if Shepard see's these images.. (either created within his mind or planted there by reapers) he will be more likely to lead humanity to follow in his belief that controlling the reapers or tgat synthesising is a worthy approach as opposed to his original goals.

Miranda states this at the beginning of ME2... if shepard falls.. humanity will follow. And since Shepard has been able to influence the entire galaxy.. I highly doubt they'll question him when he brings up these new options and presents the argument.

Hence: the reason why the reapers want shepards body... also why the collectors originally were trying to get hold of the body.

Modifié par n00bsauce2010, 18 avril 2012 - 03:36 .

[BatmanTurian]

Something weird I noticed that lends some credence to I.T. when going back to ME1 to play the series over again. When you first get to the citadel after Udihna chews you out (for the death of Nihilus and screwing up you being a spectre that would make him a council member), after the conversation ends and Ashley says " And that's why I hate politicians", you go back to the wandering squad mode to explore the Presidium. For kicks, I started clicking Ashley and Kaiden because I hadn't played the game in years.

I clicked on Ashley first and the first thing that came out of her mouth was almost word-for-word like what Vega says in ME3: " Look at this place, it's just too perfect. " meaning she has a feeling something is up. Everything is too peaceful and nice. Perhaps the Citadel does have a low-intensity indoctrination field. There's still crime, sure, but the field makes you feel safe, like everything is " perfect. "

Also, I think the beginning of the indoctrination process actually begins in the very first mission in ME1. Sovereign is on Eden Prime, blasting out that wierd noise even as he himself blasts off into space. The locals complain of an awful sound that drills into their skulls. Shepherd gets knocked out by the beacon and complains of throbbing afterwards. When he/she tells others of the vision from the Prothean beacon on the Normandy, the Reaper whispers begin.

From there, Shepherd is constantly being inundated with Reaper tech in many of the missions, meets Saren on Vermire, who has reaper tech in his own body (and an indoctrinated agent can be used as a signal beacon for a Reaper to indoctrinate others around the victim). Then of course we have the conversation with Sovereign and the ending we all know well.

My point is that the Reapers seem to have been working on Shepherd for a long time, even if just passively at first. As the Trilogy goes on, Shepherd is exposed to more and more indoctrination fields. It's only a matter of time before he/she breaks. If indoctrination theory is right, then the seeds for this ending go all the way back to Sovereign on Eden Prime.

[OdanUrr]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Hence: the reason why the reapers want shepards body... also why the collectors originally were trying to get hold of the body.

The Collectors also wanted his body when he was dead.

[n00bsauce2010]

OdanUrr wrote...

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

Hence: the reason why the reapers want shepards body... also why the collectors originally were trying to get hold of the body.

The Collectors also wanted his body when he was dead.

IF TIM has the technology to bring Shepard back to his original form.. I'm pretty sure the collectors (reapers) could do the same.. if not at a much faster rate as well as adding a bit of reaper tech to help with the indoc process.