57139 réponses à ce sujet

[krystalevenstar]

J717 wrote...

I'm gonna post this here, but...trying to "cling" onto the Indoctrination theory isn't just an attempt at a more "hopeful" or "good" ending.

It isn't even about generic good or bad endings, or Disney-esque fairytale endings - it's about concluding a series with endings that have absolutely NO CLOSURE whatsoever, and plotholes so huge that you could fit Harbinger and the Destiny Ascension through them.

BioWare gave us 3 "endings" which, when distilled, is really just 1 ending. Either they trolled us for whatever reason and the Indoctrination theory is true and we will see a different, "true" ending....or the ME series is effectively, shamefully defined by the ending of ME3 in which the last 3% of the game turned into complete crap after the first 97% of it was so utterly, deliciously good.

Of my friends, coworkers, acquaintances, etc. that have played ME3 - i have yet to come across a single one of them that was not at all completely outraged by the current state of the endings. This game is THAT powerful....so BioWare is incredibly smart if they have more in store as far as the ending is concerned, or they choked away a possible seat in the "Best Series in the History of Video Games" hall in the last 10 minutes of ME3.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt - and like a lot of people on here, i'm extremely bipolar when it comes to this theory; one minute, i've almost convinced myself that this thread is EXACTLY what BioWare had planned (they actually indoctrinated/trolled us) and that there is no other way, the next, i lose hope and am gut-punched knowing that so far, nothing but this thread is holding together any sort of hope at redeeming the ******-poor ending....

After 150+ pages, you'd think some employee could at least say SOMETHING.

They have said something. They've said they're not willing to comment until the game is out in all regions... and the PR girl says she thought it was a dream.

[Deltateam Elcor]

I shall go through the end seq to see if TIM shoots me in the face.

[Leonia]

Icinix wrote...

TheNexus wrote...

F3Zero wrote...

...well. I hate to add to the argument, but did anyone notice. The game tells you "Shepard has defeated the Reapers." Blah blah blah, so on so fourth.

Bioware wouldn't lie to us! Believe the end text! Just a thought.

Hah you beat me

Unless the indoctrination starts when Shep sits in TIM's chair - and the rubble he is waking up from is in the Cerberus base after Hackett bombs the crap out of it.

Interesting theory. I was under the impression that the whole Cerberus base was far too easy and felt like a trap. Maybe we never made it to Earth. Gah, the more I think about all this stuff, the crazier it gets.

[blooregard]

Dessalines wrote...

This is a stretch: I know in the guide it never states that this is the last dream sequence. The dream sequences are number. It just states you have another dream. I mean a lot of times in the guide it states this is the final this or the last that, but it doesn't say that this is the last dream. Like I said it was a stretch.

hmm according to that 700+ page thread earlier a guy named I...AM...KROGAN posted some pictures of the endings all of which were the ones we got stuck with. the fallout 3 guide (basic guide no add-ons) never made any mention of free play after the game but then broken steel came along. like you said its a stretch but its possible they actually end such an amazing series on a good note

[Dilandau3000]

aliengmr1 wrote...

A 5 year old could have pointed them out and yet a team of professionals who have done and amazing job to that point miss them. I don't buy it. It just doesn't seem possible that this was the best ending Bioware could come up with. Even if you thought the premise was a good idea, it still explained nothing. 

Ah, but it's far easier for a five-year-old to spot the problems than it is for someone who is close to the story. It's surprisingly difficult to spot problems in stuff you're actually writing yourself because your mind fills in the blanks where the reader/player cannot do the same.

And then there's the problem of executive meddling. Bioware could've been aware of the issues, but with EA saying "we want it released yesterday" they simply couldn't fix it. 

[GraysonJ507]

Hey everyone! I noticed something today playing through ME 1! At virmire
right after you defeat Saren then he chokes you and you punch him in
the face, I noticed as Shepard aims the pistol and doesn't shoot and the
sides of the screen become blurred(like in the ME3 ending). I always
thought that it was because he was getting a blood rush back to his
head, BUT if we run with the indoctrination theory  then maybe its
possible sovereign influenced him just enough not to. It would make
sense since Saren hadn't activated the conduit yet and was still needed.
I'm not saying thats why but I thought it odd how well it fit into this
theory.

[lavosslayer]

Dilandau3000 wrote...

lavosslayer wrote...

Dilandau3000 wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

We have 151 pages of solid argument XD
Whether you've read them all or not is on you,

What you have is circumstancial evidence that can be interpreted to support your theory. Some of it is very compelling, but it would hardly hold up in court.

In the words of Spock: "We have no proof. All we have is a theory that happens to fit the facts."

How do you know how it would hold up? Maybe not if your the judge but that clearly doesn't mean the evidence isn't solid and based on factual evidence...

In legal parlance proof must be incontrovertible. As long as you can come up with alternate explanations that are equally likely (sloppy writing, rushed to get it out the door, etc.) there's no actual proof. Nothing short of an audio file of Anderson saying "Shepard, you were knocked out by the beam and must've been hallucinating" and Shepard replying "I think Harbinger was testing me" or a statement from the developers would be actual proof.

From a scientific point of view (closer to home because I'm a scientist), what we have here is a hypothesis. A hypothesis must be tested before it can become a theory, and one of the prime requirements there is that it must have predictive utility. From this perspective, nothing short of Bioware admitting we're right (in which case made a prediction based on our hypothesis and it turned out correct) could constitute proof.

Well I think we've all come to the conclusion that we aren't going to be hearing anything for a while as the rest of the world hasn't had enough time yet to complete the game... I honestly don't see too many ways to explain this away as untrue...sloppy writing is so vague and so is "rushed out the door"...in fact I'd say that that is a worse excuse then the endings themselves...

Modifié par lavosslayer, 12 mars 2012 - 08:16 .

[J1mBlack]

That 1M1 on the staircase is going to drive me mad. Did anyone check ALL of Normandy for any signs of the ship that actually say that?

Life support? Security? Captains Cabin? Does any part of that Ship have 1M1 written on it, and if so, what does it mean?

[Deltateam Elcor]

Ah yes, i think we forgot that the human reaper carcass is in TIMs base, just dangling there with its most powerful part of it tuned into the station.

[TheNexus]

Furthermore, why did all of us spend so much damn time going full paragon or renegade or whatever, doing all the side quests and everything, something like 120+ hours through all 3 games if in the end none of it mattered? Someone who picked up Mass Effect 3 yesterday compared to someone who has a 100% play through will get the exact same ending if they choose to destroy the Reapers.

Isn't that going completely against what the game was about this whole time? Individuality and choice? Heck, you could even see in ME2 how your decisions impacted who survived the suicide mission. Some of them may not have made sense, but at least they were there.

[Kai212]

This makes sense, the current endings don't. Combine those together we might still have a chance.

[Auresta]

F3Zero wrote...

That 1M1 on the staircase is going to drive me mad. Did anyone check ALL of Normandy for any signs of the ship that actually say that?

Life support? Security? Captains Cabin? Does any part of that Ship have 1M1 written on it, and if so, what does it mean?

This. I'm curious. I might de a second runthrough as gay Sheploo and see what comes up.

[NitrAce]

CC-Tron wrote...

I wish the whole game was a hallucination.

If that's what you think, this isn't a game you should be playing anyways. The game itself is amazing and a masterpiece. The last 5-10 minutes, which I understand bring a certain "sadness" and tragic yet dramatic closure to the trilogy, should have only been one of the endings, i.e not just tragic but a quasi happy ending would have been nice.
Because in essence those decisions rip all control you had over your own ingame environment. I want to be able to save everyone, because my Shepard has always found a way but even in the "best" decision I end up losing the geth which only frustrated me because why did I have to go through Rannoch and build that affection toward the geth if they were all doomed anyways? Not to mention EDI, what the hell look how far she's come from the Luna base. If not that can I at least not be separated from my Shep's crew at the finale? I mean I've grown quite attached to all members of my squad.

[blooregard]

F3Zero wrote...

That 1M1 on the staircase is going to drive me mad. Did anyone check ALL of Normandy for any signs of the ship that actually say that?

Life support? Security? Captains Cabin? Does any part of that Ship have 1M1 written on it, and if so, what does it mean?

I don't think theres anything on the normandy that says 1m1 the only reaper tech on the normandy by the time thessia falls would be EDI's programming, possibly the reaper IFF, and maybe EVA's body (though it doesn't look reaper like nor does EDI mention anything about reaper tech on it)

[Sajuro]

El Diablo wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

El Diablo wrote...


This i would be kinda ok with. It does resolve the issue where the developer pretty much tricks you into a game over. Still it would be better if the choise for the ending was a fair and educated CHOISE instead of a Test on how cunning the player is.

For info. I picked the Synthesis ending, It seemed the best way to solve the frankly idiotic nature of the war as presented (that Organics and synthetics must always be at war, or even if that were true that that is a bad thing.)

I don't think a test of the player's wits would be too bad, get you to think for yourself that "Hey, why would control be paragon?" Knock you out of the stupor that some games can induce, more effective than breaking the fourth wall.

This would be fine if the game did something similar in earlier parts. As such a test has not been part of the gameplay before this, thus it is kinda like the game suddenly changing the established rules.

and it's not just the blue/red thing. it is also the fact that this is presented as a moral choise, the question presented is"Which of these do you think is best outcome?" and not "Which of these ansers is true?"

It is presented as that, but in a meta perspective, it is presented as such because the Star Child wants you to see all choices as equally viable like it does in every game with a morality system (since you wouldn't want blowing up megaton to stop sane people from trusting you and stop you from completing the game) If the Shepard lives ending is exclusive to Destruction, then it can be seen as Bioware saying "We said that your goal was to destroy the Reapers, just like last game's goal was to complete the suicide mission and survive, the choices to control or fuse are not viable choices in the game's context."
Maybe I'm stretching, but that's my take.

[krystalevenstar]

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

[blooregard]

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

perhaps it was part of the crucible? and while making the crucible the alliance and company just grabbed what ever they could and taped it together? 

[noobcannon]

TheNexus wrote...

One thing I noticed which has probably already been mentioned. The prompt that comes after the cinematic that comes after the credits says something along the lines of Shepard being a "legend" and that we should await future DLC.

...how can you have non-multiplayer DLC if Shepard is dead? Unless we're going to have "The Adventures of Joker in Strange Jungle World"

after you've beaten the game you "re-spawn" back to before the TIM base. implying that all dlc would take place before hand. unless it's the new post indoctrination dlc

[JasonTan87]

humes spork wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...

Traditionally, Mass Effect followed  fairly conventional soap-opera conventions.  Unlike the Matrix, which sought to question reality from the onset, we do not have this meta-narrative coming from the last two games.  Making the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 into a post-modern meta narrative that is an 'indoctrination' of the player; while entirely plausable, is unlikely.

Mass Effect has always been a metanarrative -- that is to say, it's always been a game about science fiction as much as it has been science fiction itself. The first game was a paean to 80s sci-fi, and the second a paean to 90s sci-fi. Right down to level and art design and music, each game was absolutely permeated with the influence of science fiction of that era. By extension, ME3 is a paean to 00s sci-fi and if nothing else 00s science fiction has been absolutely rife with postmodern influence.

I agree with you calling Mass Effect a paean to science fiction. I am not entirely convinced that each game is a paean to the eras you have stated.  That being said, it might be because of my lack of exposure to science fiction outside the more popular works.

The problem I have with this post-modern influence is that Mass Effect is first and foremost a narrative driven by player choice (or the illusion thereof). The player finds his/her voice through the narrative, the narrative resonates with the player because it is a reflection of his/her inner desires. The problem arises when Mass Effect 3 disrupts this relationship by very abruptly bringing in the full weight of the meta-narrative to bear directly on the player narrative in the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3.  The player narrative breaks down, the player feels disempowered, disorientated and confused.  

You can argue that the central crux of this Hallucination theory is to create this sense of disempowerment, disorientation and confusion so as to mimic the effects of indoctrination. That makes sense.  What does not make sense is why this meta-narrative is not made more apparent through the entire third installment, where viewers are given time to grasp at what is going on.

This can be done quite easily through repeated breaching of the player narrative by the meta narrative at increasing intervals and intensity.  We don't really see that happening -- even the dream scenes do not provide us enough foothold to establish the meta-narrative breach of the player-narrative.  The ending thus comes as a complete surprise to the player who finds his player-narrative crushed by the weight of this supposed meta-narrative hallucination theory (if it even exists). Because the player at this point is competely unaware of the meta-narrative, he is unable to transcend the player narrative to obtain the closure found within the meta-narrative (which is to resist the indoctrination in the optimal case).  He is left astounded, perplexed and angry that he had been cheated out of his emotional capital.

In the end, it is the responsibility of the writing to draw out the meta-narrative aspects that this hallucination theory is founded on in the concluding moments of the game.  The inability of the players (us) to determine beyond doubt the existance of such a theory, let alone find the closure within (if it even exists) is proof that the writers are not able to convey their artistic vision through the medium.

TL;DR: Even if the Hallucination theory is true, it could have been better supported by the narrative so that it could be actualized in gameplay experience, allowing us to derive the closure within the meta-narrative space.

Modifié par JasonTan87, 12 mars 2012 - 08:26 .

[Sierra163]

macroberts wrote...


The argument does hold water to a certain extent. But then you're going to have to fit the epilogue old man and the kid scene somehow. Also, surely Bioware would have known that this would be the reaction, and really the only real way to nullify the reaction is through clarification. .

Easy, the grandpa/stargazer scene takes place way in the future of some pre-space civilization. They probably got one of those boxes Liara dumped on random worlds since he's telling the 'legend' of shepard. The kid even asks if that's what really happend and the grandpa told him it's not known for certain if it did or not.

[Sajuro]

blooregard wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

perhaps it was part of the crucible? and while making the crucible the alliance and company just grabbed what ever they could and taped it together? 

Nope, the 1m1 was before Shep opened the arms to the citadel.

[Linus108]

http://i.imgur.com/aEdYc.jpg

Modifié par Linus108, 12 mars 2012 - 08:26 .

[krystalevenstar]

blooregard wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

perhaps it was part of the crucible? and while making the crucible the alliance and company just grabbed what ever they could and taped it together? 

I considered that, but you can see the crucible clearly above you. In the cutscene where Hackett sends the crucible into the citadel, we see it 'fock' with the end of that antenna that Sovereign was hooked up to in ME1. From the perspective we see the crucible in the starchild scene, we would have to be standing on the outside of the circular portion of the tip of that antenna.... I hope that makes sense XD

[TheNexus]

Gah this is driving me crazy.

Casey Hudson is trolling us. I refuse to believe otherwise.

[Dilandau3000]

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

Which again lends credence to the idea that they were really rushing to put together the ending and reused assets from elsewhere to cut corners.