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[Vahilor]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Big G13 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Big G13 wrote...

Roxy Lalonde wrote...

Somebody's probably mentioned this in the thread before, but I was discussing this with a friend of mine earlier and I was curious as to other people's readings of it:

In the beginning, when the boy is in the vent and Shepard's trying to get him out, there's a point where the dialogue wheel lets you choose whether to be kind or harsh to him. Whichever you choose, Shepard gets interrupted (if I recall, it's the sound of a Reaper? I can't quite remember) and turns back to him. They are then gentle with the boy, regardless of what you chose. I remember people complaining about this and saying it was just more railroading of Shepard's personality through auto-dialogue, but has this been considered as a possibility to fit IT?

I don't think that particular aspect of the scene has been discussed but that scene in general has been discussed at length. The fact that Anderson doesn't notice the boy, the Reaper interrupt, and the "Danger" poster next to the vent have all been brought up. If what you are saying is the case then I think the dialog choice having no impact on the scene is further evidence of the strangeness of that scene.

The argument against the lack of dialogue choice impact is that Bioware is showing there will be many no win situations. In reality there aren't. A very old Mordin sacrificing his life to cure the genophage (or not) is the only truly emotionally difficult decision that has both a hard choice to be made and a sense of finality.

The Virmire mission also pops up. So through three games their are really only two (that I can think of) memorable decisions with tragic consequences that can't be avoided.

Doesn't match thematically by my estimate

That is an interesting point. It does, however, make me ask why I am so upset about the ending. If my choices throughout 3 games has had little or no effect on the basic winning or losing of the game then the ending, as is, perfectly reflects that.

Yes except depending on your decisions, many choices do have grave consequences. I was just pointing out that Mass Effect doesn't have a history of forcing no win scenarios down the players throat. And the two I mentioned were logical and powerful. Except to those people who think the only tragedy at Virmire was not being able to leave both behind.

The Virmire deccission never was somthing that had a big impact on the Galaxy.. it was a hard choice (if you liked Kaidan and Ash) or it was an easy one if you only liked one.. and some never liked any of them (like said bevor). In the end you don't totaly lose cause you "win" Kaidan or Ash.
But in general you have a lot od deccisions to make which you can lose a lot (like Genopharg) or you can win a lot depending on your choice and dessicions you have made earlier (like Geth-Quarian) Conflict.

Related to the endings.. you only can lose.. any choice you make.. it is a loss if you keep the endings like they are (without IDT).

[Hawk227]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Gonna repost an idea I came up with while discussing the IT a few pages back.

One of my primary problems in Mass Effect 3 was that the Reapers did not try to shut down the Mass Relay network the moment they got there and others have expressed the same question. Especially once we know they take the Citadel and bring it to Earth.

I thought of this and I came up with this idea: What if the Citadel was closed before the Reapers even got to it by C-Sec or similar?

We know from Mass Effect 1 that the Reapers signal to the Keepers had been disrupted and Sovreign needed Saren on the Citadel to prevent them from closing the arms and help connect Sovreign to the Citadel.

So if the Reapers dropped out of the relays near the Citadel in ME3 the Citadel defense force could possibly hold them of long enough to seal the station with the Reapers still outside.

This would explain several small things in the ending.

Firsty of it would explain why the Relay network has not been shut down as the Reapers simply cant get into the Citadel. Secondly it explains the pupose of moving it earth and the beam leading into it, because if the Citadel was closed from the inside the Reapers would need such a beam to send ground troops onto the Citadel to take it back.

This would mean that during the final assault there is potentially a massive battle playing out on the Citadel between Reaper forces and C-sec as well as citizens giving a logical reason as to how your Citadel assets could play into the final battle.

There is off course no evidence to back this up beyond the fact that it explains a few plot holes, but it is an interesting thought is it not?

Well, theres actually a brief cutscene (start at 28:15) after you kill Kai Leng that shows the citadel closing over earth...

It's implied (stated?) that the citadel is Reaper harvesting plant, and the Reapers are using it to harvest Humans, with the beam as a way to send bodies up.

I've also seen it postulated that the IFF you get in ME2 can circumvent a closed relay so the Reapers shutting them down would be pointless (or imperceptible to the player).

Oh dident remember that scene.

Though i do know about the implied Reaper Harvesting, but unless Anderson actually got a man through the beam and back he would logically have no idea what is going on up there beyond speculation.

They were amassing bodies at the bottom of the beam (all those weird piles of Phoenix and Onyx Armors). At 27:20 in that same video, Vendetta says "The citadel is in position over Earth, the Reapers are preparing to complete the Harvest of your species"

Not substantive, but more implication for it from additional sources. None of this rules out a major battle within the Citadel though.

[Vahilor]

Hawk227 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Gonna repost an idea I came up with while discussing the IT a few pages back.

One of my primary problems in Mass Effect 3 was that the Reapers did not try to shut down the Mass Relay network the moment they got there and others have expressed the same question. Especially once we know they take the Citadel and bring it to Earth.

I thought of this and I came up with this idea: What if the Citadel was closed before the Reapers even got to it by C-Sec or similar?

We know from Mass Effect 1 that the Reapers signal to the Keepers had been disrupted and Sovreign needed Saren on the Citadel to prevent them from closing the arms and help connect Sovreign to the Citadel.

So if the Reapers dropped out of the relays near the Citadel in ME3 the Citadel defense force could possibly hold them of long enough to seal the station with the Reapers still outside.

This would explain several small things in the ending.

Firsty of it would explain why the Relay network has not been shut down as the Reapers simply cant get into the Citadel. Secondly it explains the pupose of moving it earth and the beam leading into it, because if the Citadel was closed from the inside the Reapers would need such a beam to send ground troops onto the Citadel to take it back.

This would mean that during the final assault there is potentially a massive battle playing out on the Citadel between Reaper forces and C-sec as well as citizens giving a logical reason as to how your Citadel assets could play into the final battle.

There is off course no evidence to back this up beyond the fact that it explains a few plot holes, but it is an interesting thought is it not?

Well, theres actually a brief cutscene (start at 28:15) after you kill Kai Leng that shows the citadel closing over earth...

It's implied (stated?) that the citadel is Reaper harvesting plant, and the Reapers are using it to harvest Humans, with the beam as a way to send bodies up.

I've also seen it postulated that the IFF you get in ME2 can circumvent a closed relay so the Reapers shutting them down would be pointless (or imperceptible to the player).

Oh dident remember that scene.

Though i do know about the implied Reaper Harvesting, but unless Anderson actually got a man through the beam and back he would logically have no idea what is going on up there beyond speculation.

They were amassing bodies at the bottom of the beam (all those weird piles of Phoenix and Onyx Armors). At 27:20 in that same video, Vendetta says "The citadel is in position over Earth, the Reapers are preparing to complete the Harvest of your species"

Not substantive, but more implication for it from additional sources. None of this rules out a major battle within the Citadel though.

If you look close enough.. all bodies in the piles at the beam look like Kaidans and Ashs.. and the bodys on the citadel look not like dead bodys .. more like puppets to me.

[spotlessvoid]

AresCrusader wrote...

There is absolutely no credible evidence to support the IT apart from wishful thinking. Get over it guys, the game is what it is.

You are trolling.

In regards to trolling.
Whether intentional or not, if your comments convey disdain for indoctrination theory, with no constructive arguements being made, you will be called a troll. If you have made mocking or inflammatory statements in the past, with no attempts at reconciliation, and continue to make remarks with contemptuous undertones, real or imagined, do not be surprised if you are not afforded the benefit of the doubt.
Open discussion in the search for better understanding is wholly expected and encouraged.
However, even full paragons take the occasional renegade interrupt (here's looking at you space ninja,) just remember your actions matter (or they don't, we'll find out this summer.)

This entire thread has shown the over whelming evidence for IT. Which part of the 1500 plus pages do you need explained?

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Hawk227 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Gonna repost an idea I came up with while discussing the IT a few pages back.

One of my primary problems in Mass Effect 3 was that the Reapers did not try to shut down the Mass Relay network the moment they got there and others have expressed the same question. Especially once we know they take the Citadel and bring it to Earth.

I thought of this and I came up with this idea: What if the Citadel was closed before the Reapers even got to it by C-Sec or similar?

We know from Mass Effect 1 that the Reapers signal to the Keepers had been disrupted and Sovreign needed Saren on the Citadel to prevent them from closing the arms and help connect Sovreign to the Citadel.

So if the Reapers dropped out of the relays near the Citadel in ME3 the Citadel defense force could possibly hold them of long enough to seal the station with the Reapers still outside.

This would explain several small things in the ending.

Firsty of it would explain why the Relay network has not been shut down as the Reapers simply cant get into the Citadel. Secondly it explains the pupose of moving it earth and the beam leading into it, because if the Citadel was closed from the inside the Reapers would need such a beam to send ground troops onto the Citadel to take it back.

This would mean that during the final assault there is potentially a massive battle playing out on the Citadel between Reaper forces and C-sec as well as citizens giving a logical reason as to how your Citadel assets could play into the final battle.

There is off course no evidence to back this up beyond the fact that it explains a few plot holes, but it is an interesting thought is it not?

Well, theres actually a brief cutscene (start at 28:15) after you kill Kai Leng that shows the citadel closing over earth...

It's implied (stated?) that the citadel is Reaper harvesting plant, and the Reapers are using it to harvest Humans, with the beam as a way to send bodies up.

I've also seen it postulated that the IFF you get in ME2 can circumvent a closed relay so the Reapers shutting them down would be pointless (or imperceptible to the player).

Oh dident remember that scene.

Though i do know about the implied Reaper Harvesting, but unless Anderson actually got a man through the beam and back he would logically have no idea what is going on up there beyond speculation.

They were amassing bodies at the bottom of the beam (all those weird piles of Phoenix and Onyx Armors). At 27:20 in that same video, Vendetta says "The citadel is in position over Earth, the Reapers are preparing to complete the Harvest of your species"

Not substantive, but more implication for it from additional sources. None of this rules out a major battle within the Citadel though.

Yeah and if the Reapers had pushed back the defenders inside the Citadel they might start the Harvesting and construction early in the parts they have taken. Might even use the Reaper larva to gain control of the Citadel from the inside once it reaches sufficient size.

But off course this is all speculation on my part with no evidence. Just considering the possibilities as to why they dident shut down the Relay network, why there is a transpot beam in place and what happened to everyone on the Citadel (dosent make much sense for assets to the Citadel defense fleet and Citadel forces to play in if they have been obliterated)

[Hawk227]

Vahilor wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

They were amassing bodies at the bottom of the beam (all those weird piles of Phoenix and Onyx Armors). At 27:20 in that same video, Vendetta says "The citadel is in position over Earth, the Reapers are preparing to complete the Harvest of your species"

Not substantive, but more implication for it from additional sources. None of this rules out a major battle within the Citadel though.

If you look close enough.. all bodies in the piles at the beam look like Kaidans and Ashs.. and the bodys on the citadel look not like dead bodys .. more like puppets to me.

I realize that. Ash wore Phoenix Armor and Kaidan wore Onyx. Also, you can see the piles before Harbinger's blast... so they were really there. I was just pointing out there was actual evidence that the beam was used for harvesting.

[Arian Dynas]

spotlessvoid wrote...

AresCrusader wrote...

There is absolutely no credible evidence to support the IT apart from wishful thinking. Get over it guys, the game is what it is.

You are trolling.

In regards to trolling.
Whether intentional or not, if your comments convey disdain for indoctrination theory, with no constructive arguements being made, you will be called a troll. If you have made mocking or inflammatory statements in the past, with no attempts at reconciliation, and continue to make remarks with contemptuous undertones, real or imagined, do not be surprised if you are not afforded the benefit of the doubt.
Open discussion in the search for better understanding is wholly expected and encouraged.
However, even full paragons take the occasional renegade interrupt (here's looking at you space ninja,) just remember your actions matter (or they don't, we'll find out this summer.)

This entire thread has shown the over whelming evidence for IT. Which part of the 1500 plus pages do you need explained?

Weird. I'm usually the one who takes the Paragon option. 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Arian Dynas wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

AresCrusader wrote...

There is absolutely no credible evidence to support the IT apart from wishful thinking. Get over it guys, the game is what it is.

You are trolling.

In regards to trolling.
Whether intentional or not, if your comments convey disdain for indoctrination theory, with no constructive arguements being made, you will be called a troll. If you have made mocking or inflammatory statements in the past, with no attempts at reconciliation, and continue to make remarks with contemptuous undertones, real or imagined, do not be surprised if you are not afforded the benefit of the doubt.
Open discussion in the search for better understanding is wholly expected and encouraged.
However, even full paragons take the occasional renegade interrupt (here's looking at you space ninja,) just remember your actions matter (or they don't, we'll find out this summer.)

This entire thread has shown the over whelming evidence for IT. Which part of the 1500 plus pages do you need explained?

Weird. I'm usually the one who takes the Paragon option. 

I could never resist that Krogan headbutt 

[Drift Avalii]

I don't know if anyone's seen the film, but I really couldn't resist the urge to shout 'TROLL!' in a Norwegian accent.

I called BS on Starbrat the second he said 'you can't help me' in that decisive voice straight out of a Japanese horror flick. What child living on a military base would, in a scenario where his parents are gone and the place is being obliterated by machines shaped like squid, NOT take help from an Alliance soldier in uniform? Plus, as a general rule children in games and films just cannot be trusted.

Sneaky little buggers.

[Arian Dynas]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

AresCrusader wrote...

There is absolutely no credible evidence to support the IT apart from wishful thinking. Get over it guys, the game is what it is.

You are trolling.

In regards to trolling.
Whether intentional or not, if your comments convey disdain for indoctrination theory, with no constructive arguements being made, you will be called a troll. If you have made mocking or inflammatory statements in the past, with no attempts at reconciliation, and continue to make remarks with contemptuous undertones, real or imagined, do not be surprised if you are not afforded the benefit of the doubt.
Open discussion in the search for better understanding is wholly expected and encouraged.
However, even full paragons take the occasional renegade interrupt (here's looking at you space ninja,) just remember your actions matter (or they don't, we'll find out this summer.)

This entire thread has shown the over whelming evidence for IT. Which part of the 1500 plus pages do you need explained?

Weird. I'm usually the one who takes the Paragon option. 

I could never resist that Krogan headbutt 

In case my joke needed explaining... first post at the top of this page; 

Arian Dynas wrote... 

AresCrusader wrote...

There is absolutely no credible evidence to support the IT apart from wishful thinking. Get over it guys, the game is what it is.

...

Who wants this one? It's getting late and though it might be easy to eat trolls for breakfast, they're not very good for you.

as compared to Spotless's response

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 18 avril 2012 - 09:15 .

[spotlessvoid]

[quote]Vahilor wrote...

[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...

[quote]Big G13 wrote...

[quote]spotlessvoid wrote...

[quote]Big G13 wrote...

[quote]Roxy Lalonde wrote...

[/quote]

The argument against the lack of dialogue choice impact is that Bioware is showing there will be many no win situations. In reality there aren't. A very old Mordin sacrificing his life to cure the genophage (or not) is the only truly emotionally difficult decision that has both a hard choice to be made and a sense of finality.

The Virmire mission also pops up. So through three games their are really only two (that I can think of) memorable decisions with tragic consequences that can't be avoided.

Doesn't match thematically by my estimate[/quote]That is an interesting point. It does, however, make me ask why I am so upset about the ending. If my choices throughout 3 games has had little or no effect on the basic winning or losing of the game then the ending, as is, perfectly reflects that.[/quote]

Yes except depending on your decisions, many choices do have grave consequences. I was just pointing out that Mass Effect doesn't have a history of forcing no win scenarios down the players throat. And the two I mentioned were logical and powerful. Except to those people who think the only tragedy at Virmire was not being able to leave both behind.[/quote]

The Virmire deccission never was somthing that had a big impact on the Galaxy.. it was a hard choice (if you liked Kaidan and Ash) or it was an easy one if you only liked one.. and some never liked any of them (like said bevor). In the end you don't totaly lose cause you "win" Kaidan or Ash.
But in general you have a lot od deccisions to make which you can lose a lot (like Genopharg) or you can win a lot depending on your choice and dessicions you have made earlier (like Geth-Quarian) Conflict.

Related to the endings.. you only can lose.. any choice you make.. it is a loss if you keep the endings like they are (without IDT).

[/quote]

Exactly my point is Bioware has always given the player a path out of lose-lose situations. With Starchild they didn't. Not at the beginning, not at the end.

Which is why it seems like a different writing vehicle. Like one used to deliver the mother of all video game twist endings, a meta ending.

[Big G13]

Vahilor wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Big G13 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Big G13 wrote...

Roxy Lalonde wrote...

Somebody's probably mentioned this in the thread before, but I was discussing this with a friend of mine earlier and I was curious as to other people's readings of it:

In the beginning, when the boy is in the vent and Shepard's trying to get him out, there's a point where the dialogue wheel lets you choose whether to be kind or harsh to him. Whichever you choose, Shepard gets interrupted (if I recall, it's the sound of a Reaper? I can't quite remember) and turns back to him. They are then gentle with the boy, regardless of what you chose. I remember people complaining about this and saying it was just more railroading of Shepard's personality through auto-dialogue, but has this been considered as a possibility to fit IT?

I don't think that particular aspect of the scene has been discussed but that scene in general has been discussed at length. The fact that Anderson doesn't notice the boy, the Reaper interrupt, and the "Danger" poster next to the vent have all been brought up. If what you are saying is the case then I think the dialog choice having no impact on the scene is further evidence of the strangeness of that scene.

The argument against the lack of dialogue choice impact is that Bioware is showing there will be many no win situations. In reality there aren't. A very old Mordin sacrificing his life to cure the genophage (or not) is the only truly emotionally difficult decision that has both a hard choice to be made and a sense of finality.

The Virmire mission also pops up. So through three games their are really only two (that I can think of) memorable decisions with tragic consequences that can't be avoided.

Doesn't match thematically by my estimate

That is an interesting point. It does, however, make me ask why I am so upset about the ending. If my choices throughout 3 games has had little or no effect on the basic winning or losing of the game then the ending, as is, perfectly reflects that.

Yes except depending on your decisions, many choices do have grave consequences. I was just pointing out that Mass Effect doesn't have a history of forcing no win scenarios down the players throat. And the two I mentioned were logical and powerful. Except to those people who think the only tragedy at Virmire was not being able to leave both behind.

The Virmire deccission never was somthing that had a big impact on the Galaxy.. it was a hard choice (if you liked Kaidan and Ash) or it was an easy one if you only liked one.. and some never liked any of them (like said bevor). In the end you don't totaly lose cause you "win" Kaidan or Ash.
But in general you have a lot od deccisions to make which you can lose a lot (like Genopharg) or you can win a lot depending on your choice and dessicions you have made earlier (like Geth-Quarian) Conflict.

Related to the endings.. you only can lose.. any choice you make.. it is a loss if you keep the endings like they are (without IDT).

Thanks Vahilor. I was being a little facetious but Spotlessvoid clarified his/her "devils advocate" position, so, we're all good

[Skillz1986]

@arescrusader
hahahaha...cute

oh wait, you are serious? I'm sure you can back that up right?...uh..you can't? Well, as i said...cute

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Arcian wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

This entire thread has shown the over whelming evidence for IT. Which part of the 1500 plus pages do you need explained?

>"Overwhelming evidence"
>Speculation, assumptions, conjectures and outright rape of the established lore
Hahahaohwow.jpg

Your theory holds about as much water as a kitchen sieve.

Also, inb4 "HURRGH STOP TROLLING US WE'RE RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG DURRF SCHLURRF". 1500 pages of nonsense and denial does not make you right.

The three first you mention are typical comments from you Anti-IT (with the usual lack of anything to point out where our "assumptions" dont fit)

But that "Rape of established lore" is a new one. Would you like to elaborate on that oen or will it be the usual with an Anti-IT popping in for a quick 2-3 line comment and then never beeing seen again?

[Skillz1986]

@arcian. well, nobody would even think about calling you a troll, if you had actually at least tried to point out even one aspect, and explained why you think it's nonsense. but coming in here, saying "you're all idiots..i'm right" is just that, trolling in it's finest. and not even in a creative kind of way. Right now you're just being a d**k.

[CroGamer002]

I remember someone from Bioware yesterday Tweeted that Indoctrination theory will not be used in Extended Cut.

Wish I could find it again.

[spotlessvoid]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Hawk227 wrote...

They were amassing bodies at the bottom of the beam (all those weird piles of Phoenix and Onyx Armors). At 27:20 in that same video, Vendetta says "The citadel is in position over Earth, the Reapers are preparing to complete the Harvest of your species"

It seems I missed that quote on my playthrough. That basically means Earth is pretty much finished, and so is the human reaper which the reapers have tried to build since ME2 - there is only one piece missing: Shepard.

I hope the human reaper has still a role to play in the resolution to the trilogy, and that maybe the extended cut will be a lot more than epilogue and cinematics. It would be great if Bioware actually managed to resolve all the dark energy and human genetic malleability foreshadowing from ME2.

The potential for greatness or utter failure is there, in the extended cut... here's hoping for IT and a satisfying resolution.

You have hope. More than you know. The only consistency in anything coming from Bioware post launch is their over all weirdness in discussing, or more accurately not discussing IT. No IT rebuttal but many hints at there being a master plan.

If one assumes the insanity that is the literal ending is so horrendously bad it's actually impossible to accomplish accidentally, and the in-game evidence (subtle and blatant) has only given birth to indoctrination theory as a perfectly viable explanation, then it would seem there IS a plan.

[Skillz1986]

How come.all the anti IT guys always turn up at the same time? Is this some kimd of group activity? A new hobby of yours? I mean i'm pretty sure you have other things to do. if not, we gladly invite you to discuss IT li cant't stress it enough DISCUSS). Maybe there's something we're missing and you are right about IT being wrong...we'll never find out, until you won't develop the ability to actually bring forward "hints" or evene evidence for IT being wrong.

[spotlessvoid]

Arcian wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

This entire thread has shown the over whelming evidence for IT. Which part of the 1500 plus pages do you need explained?

>"Overwhelming evidence"
>Speculation, assumptions, conjectures and outright rape of the established lore
Hahahaohwow.jpg

Your theory holds about as much water as a kitchen sieve.

Also, inb4 "HURRGH STOP TROLLING US WE'RE RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG DURRF SCHLURRF". 1500 pages of nonsense and denial does not make you right.

There is a point being made somewhere here, I'm sure of it.

[Arian Dynas]

Mesina2 wrote...

I remember someone from Bioware yesterday Tweeted that Indoctrination theory will not be used in Extended Cut.

Wish I could find it again.

That would be Merizan, who likely does not know the details, and said that they shall never state for certain, merely implying, in the vein of "Was Deckard a Replicant?" or "Did they ever leave the Matrix?"

[Big G13]

I gotta get on a plane. Thanks y'all. See ya in 9 hours. Hold the line.

[Skillz1986]

Well..they're gone. just like trolls.
Come in/start some s**t/disappear

[Vahilor]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Arcian wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

This entire thread has shown the over whelming evidence for IT. Which part of the 1500 plus pages do you need explained?

>"Overwhelming evidence"
>Speculation, assumptions, conjectures and outright rape of the established lore
Hahahaohwow.jpg

Your theory holds about as much water as a kitchen sieve.

Also, inb4 "HURRGH STOP TROLLING US WE'RE RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG DURRF SCHLURRF". 1500 pages of nonsense and denial does not make you right.

There is a point being made somewhere here, I'm sure of it.

Smells  like introllination ^^