57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Tamuril24]

Ahro wrote...

I just beat the game a half an hour ago and I have to say, by this theory, I was indoctrinated. >D  OMG!  Seriously, I highly support this theory.  At the end of it all (before I went to reading spoilers) I was actually thrilled because there was so much potential to play with.  There was no way it could be left off here.  We were always told that it would be a trilogy, and now it may just not be.  If it does end up being left here, I will be pissed, but I don't see Bioware doing that to such a piece of art Mass Effect has come to be.

With that, I highly agree with this Hallucination theory (and now need to go back and play to save Shepard so I can transfer my save file to the next game. ;D)  Wondeful work on compiling all of that.  Now I can only hope that it all pans through as true (or to some semblance of).  This series can not end here.  There is too much invested, and for such epic storytelling to just die off like that makes no sense at all.

Here's to Bioware breaking the fourth wall!

Bioware have made it clear that there will be more Mass effect, but Shepard's story ends here.

[Sierra163]

blooregard wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

perhaps it was part of the crucible? and while making the crucible the alliance and company just grabbed what ever they could and taped it together? 

You first see the 1M1 on the citidel, before the crucible docks with it

[Spectre-61]

I just can't believe that this is THE END of Mass Effect. Those endings are both too similar and too weird to be true, in my opinion.
I really hope BW won't letting us sit on those endings.

PS: Really like that indoctrination theory. Hope it's true.

[krystalevenstar]

krystalevenstar wrote...

blooregard wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

perhaps it was part of the crucible? and while making the crucible the alliance and company just grabbed what ever they could and taped it together? 

I considered that, but you can see the crucible clearly above you. In the cutscene where Hackett sends the crucible into the citadel, we see it 'fock' (lol, I meant dock) with the end of that antenna that Sovereign was hooked up to in ME1. From the perspective we see the crucible in the starchild scene, we would have to be standing on the outside of the circular portion of the tip of that antenna.... I hope that makes sense XD

[J1mBlack]

Auresta wrote...

F3Zero wrote...

That 1M1 on the staircase is going to drive me mad. Did anyone check ALL of Normandy for any signs of the ship that actually say that?

Life support? Security? Captains Cabin? Does any part of that Ship have 1M1 written on it, and if so, what does it mean?

This. I'm curious. I might de a second runthrough as gay Sheploo and see what comes up.

Quoting someone from way earlier in the post:



The other thing is, its either cerberus or alliance, the colors are clear as day yellow. Either or. I don't know. Maybe one of the graphic designers seriously messed up.


AND IF YOU ALL WANT TO BE CONVINCED THAT IT WAS IN FACT TRICKED!

At the end of this video, the interview with Martin Sheen AKA, the ILLUSIVE man, he says

"Stay Tuned, Im not done yet". He probably shouldn't have said it, but hell, now we know. There is a catch.


 

[krystalevenstar]

krystalevenstar wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

blooregard wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

perhaps it was part of the crucible? and while making the crucible the alliance and company just grabbed what ever they could and taped it together? 

I considered that, but you can see the crucible clearly above you. In the cutscene where Hackett sends the crucible into the citadel, we see it 'fock' (lol, I meant dock) with the end of that antenna that Sovereign was hooked up to in ME1. From the perspective we see the crucible in the starchild scene, we would have to be standing on the outside of the circular portion of the tip of that antenna.... I hope that makes sense XD

Aaand now I'm quoting instead of editing. Yeah, definite signs i'm headed to bed momentarily XD Can't wait to have to catch up on another 40+ pages tomorrow XD

[Auresta]

JasonTan87 wrote...

humes spork wrote...

JasonTan87 wrote...

Traditionally, Mass Effect followed  fairly conventional soap-opera conventions.  Unlike the Matrix, which sought to question reality from the onset, we do not have this meta-narrative coming from the last two games.  Making the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 into a post-modern meta narrative that is an 'indoctrination' of the player; while entirely plausable, is unlikely.

Mass Effect has always been a metanarrative -- that is to say, it's always been a game about science fiction as much as it has been science fiction itself. The first game was a paean to 80s sci-fi, and the second a paean to 90s sci-fi. Right down to level and art design and music, each game was absolutely permeated with the influence of science fiction of that era. By extension, ME3 is a paean to 00s sci-fi and if nothing else 00s science fiction has been absolutely rife with postmodern influence.

I agree with you calling Mass Effect a paean to science fiction. I am not entirely convinced that each game is a paean to the eras you have stated.  That being said, it might be because of my lack of exposure to science fiction outside the more popular works.

The problem I have with this post-modern influence is that Mass Effect is first and foremost a narrative driven by player choice (or the illusion thereof). The player finds his/her voice through the narrative, the narrative resonates with the player because it is a reflection of his/her inner desires. The problem arises when Mass Effect 3 disrupts this relationship by very abruptly bringing in the full weight of the meta-narrative to bear directly on the player narrative in the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3.  The player narrative breaks down, the player feels disempowered, disorientated and confused.  

You can argue that the central crux of this Hallucination theory is to create this sense of disempowerment, disorientation and confusion so as to mimic the effects of indoctrination. That makes sense.  What does not make sense is why this meta-narrative is not made more apparent through the entire third installment, where viewers are given time to grasp at what is going on.

This can be done quite easily through repeated breaching of the player narrative by the meta narrative at increasing intervals and intensity.  We don't really see that happening -- even the dream scenes do not provide us enough foothold to establish the meta-narrative breach of the player-narrative.  The ending thus comes as a complete surprise to the player who finds his player-narrative crushed by the weight of this supposed meta-narrative hallucination theory (if it even exists). Because the player at this point is competely unaware of the meta-narrative, he is unable to transcend the player narrative to obtain the closure found within the meta-narrative (which is to resist the indoctrination in the optimal case).  He is left astounded, perplexed and angry that he had been cheated out of his emotional capital.

In the end, it is the responsibility of the writing to draw out the meta-narrative aspects that this hallucination theory is founded on in the concluding moments of the game.  The inability of the players (us) to determine beyond doubt the existance of such a theory, let alone find the closure within (if it even exists) is proof that the writers are not able to convey their artistic vision through the medium.

TL;DR: Even if the Hallucination theory is true, it could have been better supported by the narrative so that it could be actualized in gameplay experience, allowing us to derive the closure within the meta-narrative space.

^This. Great post.

[TheNexus]

Dilandau3000 wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

Which again lends credence to the idea that they were really rushing to put together the ending and reused assets from elsewhere to cut corners.

Oh crap you used the "R" word.

I hope we don't have another Dragon Age 2 situation here.

[Deltateam Elcor]

Yes TIM can kill Shepard at the end, 3 renegade options lead to being shot, also there is an interupt to shoot TIM, but if you dont take it, you die.

The shadowy tendrils come back as well.

[Icinix]

F3Zero wrote...

Auresta wrote...

F3Zero wrote...

That 1M1 on the staircase is going to drive me mad. Did anyone check ALL of Normandy for any signs of the ship that actually say that?

Life support? Security? Captains Cabin? Does any part of that Ship have 1M1 written on it, and if so, what does it mean?

This. I'm curious. I might de a second runthrough as gay Sheploo and see what comes up.

Quoting someone from way earlier in the post:

(snip)

The other thing is, its either cerberus or alliance, the colors are clear as day yellow. Either or. I don't know. Maybe one of the graphic designers seriously messed up.


AND IF YOU ALL WANT TO BE CONVINCED THAT IT WAS IN FACT TRICKED!

At the end of this video, the interview with Martin Sheen AKA, the ILLUSIVE man, he says

"Stay Tuned, Im not done yet". He probably shouldn't have said it, but hell, now we know. There is a catch.


 

We were also advised in a few places to keep our save games.

The game creates an auto unique save just before the ending.

There is a tweet that says "If only you knew what we had planned..."

Yes I'm grasping at rays of light - but dammit. Its all I've got.

[Dilandau3000]

The main problem with Star Trek Generations was that the writers tried so hard to not make the story predictable that they forgot that it also had to make sense (this is not speculation; the writers have said themselves that Kirk's unsatisfying death was deliberately done because they didn't want it to be predictable).

Maybe something similar happened here? They didn't want a predictable "everybody lives happily ever after" ending, and they went overboard trying to make it unpredictable.

[Tamuril24]

IF Shepard is indoctrinated, does that mean she will be free of it when she destroys the reapers? Or will she need to kill herself like Saren and TIM?

IDC about having more Mass Effects, I just would like Shepard to have a peaceful end to her story - at least have the option to after all the quests I did and all the paragon points etc. As it stands ME is the most fantastic bunch of games I have ever played, it's the end that kills it for me and makes me never want to pick up one of their games again.

I've decided that I will not pre-order any more bioware games until I have seen reviews, I'm not fussy about spoilers, I just need to know a game is worth it, and the last 10 minutes of this game made me wish I had never played I'm sorry bioware, I'm just being honest - think about what your fans are saying to you (ignore the trolls) we want to love this game, we really do. It would be effortless on your part to change that for us,

[Martukis]

Icinix wrote...

F3Zero wrote...

Auresta wrote...

F3Zero wrote...

That 1M1 on the staircase is going to drive me mad. Did anyone check ALL of Normandy for any signs of the ship that actually say that?

Life support? Security? Captains Cabin? Does any part of that Ship have 1M1 written on it, and if so, what does it mean?

This. I'm curious. I might de a second runthrough as gay Sheploo and see what comes up.

Quoting someone from way earlier in the post:

(snip)

The other thing is, its either cerberus or alliance, the colors are clear as day yellow. Either or. I don't know. Maybe one of the graphic designers seriously messed up.


AND IF YOU ALL WANT TO BE CONVINCED THAT IT WAS IN FACT TRICKED!

At the end of this video, the interview with Martin Sheen AKA, the ILLUSIVE man, he says

"Stay Tuned, Im not done yet". He probably shouldn't have said it, but hell, now we know. There is a catch.


 

We were also advised in a few places to keep our save games.

The game creates an auto unique save just before the ending.

There is a tweet that says "If only you knew what we had planned..."

Yes I'm grasping at rays of light - but dammit. Its all I've got.

It is all any of us have. Now to sleep a few hours and catch up with this.

[dknight200]

I don't know if this has been mentioned or if it has anything to do with the hallucination theory but has anyone else noticed the planet that the normandy crash lands on and the planet that the stargazer could be the same?
especially when the camera pans up to the sky and we have a moment with the normandy in the shot and a planet and its moon in the background.
With the planet's moon being on the other side on the background planet in the stargazers movie

[J1mBlack]

I think since the actual actor for TIM said he's not done... we don't have anything to worry about.

[TheNexus]

The other thing is, its either cerberus or alliance, the colors are clear as day yellow. Either or. I don't know. Maybe one of the graphic designers seriously messed up.

 

I used to think Bioware didn't cut corners, but then I found out the Tali picture was a photoshopped google image (not that I don't like it, mind you). So yeah, it's possible they messed up.

 

At the end of this video, the interview with Martin Sheen AKA, the ILLUSIVE man, he says

"Stay Tuned, Im not done yet". He probably shouldn't have said it, but hell, now we know. There is a catch.


 

That could just mean that he was still in the middle of finishing the rest of his lines. But yeah, that could be something.

[DangerSandler]

If they really do release a DLC with the "true" ending, it will seriously be one of the biggest controversies in the history of gaming. Whether that would be good or bad is remain to be seen... But this is Bioware we are talking about here. I refuse to be like others and say that Bioware was "lazy" or truly thought that this was a good ending to the trilogy. There's just simply no way, even if the game was rushed. They *have* to release an ending - and honestly, the hallucination/dream/indoctrination theories are the only ways they can really fix this, whether it was intended or not.

[macroberts]

Sierra163 wrote...

macroberts wrote...


The argument does hold water to a certain extent. But then you're going to have to fit the epilogue old man and the kid scene somehow. Also, surely Bioware would have known that this would be the reaction, and really the only real way to nullify the reaction is through clarification. .

Easy, the grandpa/stargazer scene takes place way in the future of some pre-space civilization. They probably got one of those boxes Liara dumped on random worlds since he's telling the 'legend' of shepard. The kid even asks if that's what really happend and the grandpa told him it's not known for certain if it did or not.

Thanks for reaffirming my growing belief in this idea =D

But as another poster had said before, if this was indeed what they were going for, it could have been done it better. I mean, you can point to dreams as a part of the indoctrination, I guess, but another way they could have done the whole "You're being indoctrinated" thing is if they had background voices every time you're walking in doctrinated places, e.g. Cerberus Base, Sanctuary. If they did that, I'd actually have thought about the hallucination/indoctrination bit straight out of the bat when I'm talking to space-child-god. You could also have Shepard doubting the words of the space-child-god as he's talking to it, and have it add to the sense of doubt about the sincerity of the apparition.

After all, Shepard has been walking around Reaper indoctrinated people, objects, ships, and bases. And he's somehow entirely immune to indoctrination?

This idea is beginning to indoctrinate me! =P

[Dilandau3000]

TheNexus wrote...

 

At the end of this video, the interview with Martin Sheen AKA, the ILLUSIVE man, he says

"Stay Tuned, Im not done yet". He probably shouldn't have said it, but hell, now we know. There is a catch.


 

That could just mean that he was still in the middle of finishing the rest of his lines. But yeah, that could be something.

Or that there's DLC planned in which the Illusive Man plays a role (pre-ending), which I wouldn't find unlikely in the least.

[Sajuro]

krystalevenstar wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

blooregard wrote...

krystalevenstar wrote...

I did notice the 1M1 texture used elsewhere in the game, but I can't remember where. Regardless, it was on human buildings, definitely shouldn't be there in the 'never before known area of the citadel, even though it's apparently on the outside in plain view of everyone.' room.

perhaps it was part of the crucible? and while making the crucible the alliance and company just grabbed what ever they could and taped it together? 

I considered that, but you can see the crucible clearly above you. In the cutscene where Hackett sends the crucible into the citadel, we see it 'fock' (lol, I meant dock) with the end of that antenna that Sovereign was hooked up to in ME1. From the perspective we see the crucible in the starchild scene, we would have to be standing on the outside of the circular portion of the tip of that antenna.... I hope that makes sense XD

I like "Fock" better, describes docking and the suggestive imagery.

[Leonia]

dknight200 wrote...

I don't know if this has been mentioned or if it has anything to do with the hallucination theory but has anyone else noticed the planet that the normandy crash lands on and the planet that the stargazer could be the same?
especially when the camera pans up to the sky and we have a moment with the normandy in the shot and a planet and its moon in the background.
With the planet's moon being on the other side on the background planet in the stargazers movie

This sort of makes me think of OSC's Worthing Saga, don't know why nor do I believe it.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a theory involving time-travel for the Normandy sequence.

[Tamuril24]

Will anyone honestly buy pre-ending DLC after all this? I won't unless they give us some control over how it ends the game.

[Deltateam Elcor]

There is one more ray of interest for the Cronos station hallucination start, the Prothean VIs indoctrination protocols are deactivated so that it would not sense TIMs own indoctrination, so with the fact that the reaper baby we killed in ME2 is just sitting a few hundred metres away, one could not know if he was beginning to show or feel it.

[DangerSandler]

Tamuril24 wrote...

Will anyone honestly buy pre-ending DLC after all this? I won't unless they give us some control over how it ends the game.

I'd buy pre-ending DLC AFTER they released DLC to fix the ending. Not the other way around.

[lavosslayer]

Dilandau3000 wrote...

TheNexus wrote...

 

At the end of this video, the interview with Martin Sheen AKA, the ILLUSIVE man, he says

"Stay Tuned, Im not done yet". He probably shouldn't have said it, but hell, now we know. There is a catch.


 

That could just mean that he was still in the middle of finishing the rest of his lines. But yeah, that could be something.

Or that there's DLC planned in which the Illusive Man plays a role (pre-ending), which I wouldn't find unlikely in the least.

Well since we all know the take back omega DLC is coming at some point I"m sure we'll get to see a fun convo with Aria and TIM...actually I can't wait to see that! lol