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[BatmanTurian]

The Captainator wrote...

  Like the sandemanian religion, they believe that everything is unified by god, and the way to get closer to him is to study the world. So they use science to understand the creator.

This.

The more I educate myself, and learn about the world and science, the stronger my faith becomes.  Too many laws and variables to all happen by chance.  That 1 being can understand it all . . .

But enough about religion.  I was merely stating that the IT is more like religion than people think.

With your example, it is religion in the vaguest way possible. In context with other religions, it is the opposite. 

It's a hypothesis being slowly supported by facts so as to create a more perfect theory that may or may not be true. That's the scientific process. Religion says the sky is blue because God made it blue. Science says the sky is blue because we looked for the reason for it and came to the conclusion that it's because of the gases in the atmosphere filtering sunlight.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 18 avril 2012 - 06:51 .

[Leto_Galt]

ExtendedCut wrote...

I don't remember anything about Morinth being able to control people in ME2.  Can someone remind me? 

If that is true, then their may be a precedent for biotic control of people, and TIM's control over Shepard and Anderson wouldn't be quite so inexplicable without IT.

I responded to you last night on this topic.
See page 1533 to 1534

[balance5050]

llbountyhunter wrote...


She has a power that was similar to AI hacking, but for organics. Only thing is TIM. Isn't biotic (based off the books)

And if he did have this power why not just make them kill themselves? (if he WAS really there....)

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

[Rifneno]

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Honestly, if they string this out any longer, I think I'll struggle to buy another BioWare game in the future. And I LOVE BioWare games.

QFT. This got old a long time ago. It's downright ancient now.

llbountyhunter wrote...

OK so the IT disbelievers try to disprove the unlimited ammo gun and, BOOM. IT is false? Why don't they disprove any of the bigger evidence like.

Shepard wakes on earth.
The fact that TIM can control Anderson+ Shepard (or why not just make them kill each other? )

Oh wait. You have, with the infamous "Bioware is lazy" line..

You want them to use logic? If they used logic, they wouldn't be IT opponents in the first place.

Ravel1992 wrote...

IT is telling them that they are wrong ..twice. First that they were wrong choosing control/synthesis, second that they are wrong about "bad writing". People dont like when someone telling them that they are wrong.

If they don't like being told they're wrong, they shouldn't be wrong so much.

ExtendedCut wrote...

I don't remember anything about Morinth being able to control people in ME2. Can someone remind me?

I think they mean her bonus power, Dominate. It's basically sabotage, but for organics instead of synthetics.

Morinth was an alien succubus. I'd describe TIM as a lot of things, and "Suc" is definitely part of a lot of them, but "succubus" isn't one.

[Ytook]

ExtendedCut

Grrr....Retakers...

I hate it when people have a go at IT supporters, and in our defence I think it's the minority of re-takers being idiots. I like the indoc theory a lot and I pray to the enkindlers that it's either true or used by Bioware even if it wasn't intended as it would provide a clean slate for the ending while still retaining what is there (seeing as they are so adamant that that must be the case).

[SS2Dante]

EpyonX3 wrote...

One thing I can deduce from the fake leak is what the bioware employee stated.

"In fact, we aren't yet at a state in production where mr "art monkey" could even see what he is describing."

Doesn't that suggest that they're making the new content from scratch and it wasn't planned?

Either that or Mr. Gamble might be stretching the truth a bit.

True enough. As a devils advocate argument however I could say "they're working on the other parts of the dlc, not the catalyst scenes".

However, it's interesting that he was quick enough to stamp this one out, when Bioware have been so quiet about the rest of it.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


She has a power that was similar to AI hacking, but for organics. Only thing is TIM. Isn't biotic (based off the books)

And if he did have this power why not just make them kill themselves? (if he WAS really there....)

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

Don't forget his holds his gut too.

[ExtendedCut]

Leto_Galt wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

I don't remember anything about Morinth being able to control people in ME2.  Can someone remind me? 

If that is true, then their may be a precedent for biotic control of people, and TIM's control over Shepard and Anderson wouldn't be quite so inexplicable without IT.

I responded to you last night on this topic.
See page 1533 to 1534

Sorry, I must have totally missed it.  I'm going to re-read that now.

[EpyonX3]

SS2Dante wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

One thing I can deduce from the fake leak is what the bioware employee stated.

"In fact, we aren't yet at a state in production where mr "art monkey" could even see what he is describing."

Doesn't that suggest that they're making the new content from scratch and it wasn't planned?

Either that or Mr. Gamble might be stretching the truth a bit.

True enough. As a devils advocate argument however I could say "they're working on the other parts of the dlc, not the catalyst scenes".

However, it's interesting that he was quick enough to stamp this one out, when Bioware have been so quiet about the rest of it.

And that makes me wonder. But not going to jump to any conclusions. This is exactly why I try not to pay attention to leaks.

[llbountyhunter]

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


She has a power that was similar to AI hacking, but for organics. Only thing is TIM. Isn't biotic (based off the books)

And if he did have this power why not just make them kill themselves? (if he WAS really there....)

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

Nicely put......Is it bad that I kinda wanted to see the ridiculous response of a fully indoctrinated IT hater?

Edit: not calling you an It hater Balance.

Modifié par llbountyhunter, 18 avril 2012 - 06:55 .

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


She has a power that was similar to AI hacking, but for organics. Only thing is TIM. Isn't biotic (based off the books)

And if he did have this power why not just make them kill themselves? (if he WAS really there....)

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

Don't forget his holds his gut too.

And his shoulder

[Spartas Husky]

EpyonX3 wrote...

One thing I can deduce from the fake leak is what the bioware employee stated.

"In fact, we aren't yet at a state in production where mr "art monkey" could even see what he is describing."

Doesn't that suggest that they're making the new content from scratch and it wasn't planned?

Either that or Mr. Gamble might be stretching the truth a bit.

It doesn't imply anything. Dont get desperate. It might inf act be what monkey said. That would ****** off more people now. Since a large section believes "destroy" is the right choice, given the large speculation based on IT theory. depicting Destory as the worst option is basically saying IT is false.

EA doesnt want more heat than it has already.

Implying that Monkee doesn't know anything, simply means they dont want us to know. Whether they are just screwing up again they dont want people to know otherwise their already dwindling prices would plummet. IMplying it would be good, would mean people would get their hopes up beyond anything they could do and laead to major criticism once it comes out.

Rule number 1, do not say or promise anything of what they might or not might be doing. Least people get frustrated over the finishing product.

[Ravel1992]

SS2Dante wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

One thing I can deduce from the fake leak is what the bioware employee stated.

"In fact, we aren't yet at a state in production where mr "art monkey" could even see what he is describing."

Doesn't that suggest that they're making the new content from scratch and it wasn't planned?

Either that or Mr. Gamble might be stretching the truth a bit.

True enough. As a devils advocate argument however I could say "they're working on the other parts of the dlc, not the catalyst scenes".

However, it's interesting that he was quick enough to stamp this one out, when Bioware have been so quiet about the rest of it.

He said also "Don't worry". What can mean "We wont do something like that" 

[Rifneno]

balance5050 wrote...

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

Yeah.  That same effect is also used in the dreams.  Hmm, I wonder there's anything telling in the pcc files.

... BioVFX_Plc_ReaperIndoc?  Nah, I'm sure it's not what it looks like. 

[SS2Dante]

EpyonX3 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

One thing I can deduce from the fake leak is what the bioware employee stated.

"In fact, we aren't yet at a state in production where mr "art monkey" could even see what he is describing."

Doesn't that suggest that they're making the new content from scratch and it wasn't planned?

Either that or Mr. Gamble might be stretching the truth a bit.

True enough. As a devils advocate argument however I could say "they're working on the other parts of the dlc, not the catalyst scenes".

However, it's interesting that he was quick enough to stamp this one out, when Bioware have been so quiet about the rest of it.

And that makes me wonder. But not going to jump to any conclusions. This is exactly why I try not to pay attention to leaks.

Indeedy, before I joined this thread I hadn't seen a thing Bioware had said. They be biased either way

[BatmanTurian]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


She has a power that was similar to AI hacking, but for organics. Only thing is TIM. Isn't biotic (based off the books)

And if he did have this power why not just make them kill themselves? (if he WAS really there....)

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

Don't forget his holds his gut too.

That's not how you say " cradles his arm too. "^_^

[Spartas Husky]

[quote]llbountyhunter wrote...


She has a power that was similar to AI hacking, but for organics. Only thing is TIM. Isn't biotic (based off the books)

And if he did have this power why not just make them kill themselves? (if he WAS really there....) [/quote]

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

[/quote]

Id ont remember how you get it, but it involves doing mostly paragon and 1 renegade. Reason why I believe in the IT above everything else is that alluding to your point. At one instance shepard simply states:
"if you canc ontrol them why waste your time with us?"

TIM:
"....because I need you to believe"

That makes no sense from TIM point. If he can contorl them and if he is there he would have control them, and done his thing, not waste his time tryingt o convince you of something. Is just ridiculous and bad writting if he is in fact there.

[Rksmithers]

The Captainator wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

The Captainator wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

If they were trying to indoctrinate Shepard then they simply needn't present the destroy option at all.

Also, religion versus science is mutually exclusive. Religion postulates a being outside of universal laws. This means it works by magic. If there were a great, powerful being, but its abilities could be explained by science, then it's not religion, it's science. It's either outside of science, or inside. Mutually exclusive.

Cutting off some long quotes.

Making religion and science mutually exclusive is wrong.  Miracles are simply manifestions of a law we do not understand, which is what the IT is trying to explain.

Alas, attempting to explain how they're not exclusive to someone who believes they are is nigh impossible.  It is a concept that is difficult to grasp.

"Manifestations of a law we don't understand". Therefore there is system of laws. Therefore this being cannot override them. If it could, it would be breaking these laws. Like I said, a being with all the abilities and knowledge we attribute to "God" that DID obey these laws is not a religious God, simply a large entity like us.

Mutually exclusive.

Edit - the fallacy here is that you attribute the properties of 'magic' to laws we don't yet understand. No matter what "miraculous" things they can do, they are basic laws by which the universe operates. If a being could violate these laws then they don't exist.

Like the sandemanian religion, they believe that everything is unified by god, and the way to get closer to him is to study the world. So they use science to understand the creator.

This.

The more I educate myself, and learn about the world and science, the stronger my faith becomes.  Too many laws and variables to all happen by chance.  That 1 being can understand it all . . .

But enough about religion.  I was merely stating that the IT is more like religion than people think.

Drop the religious crap it is in no way relivent or connected, or similar.......

Modifié par Rksmithers, 18 avril 2012 - 06:56 .

[SS2Dante]

BatmanTurian wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


She has a power that was similar to AI hacking, but for organics. Only thing is TIM. Isn't biotic (based off the books)

And if he did have this power why not just make them kill themselves? (if he WAS really there....)

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

Don't forget his holds his gut too.

That's not how you say " cradles his arm too. "^_^

THE GAUNTLET HAS BEEN THROWN

[SS2Dante]

[quote]Spartas Husky wrote...


[quote]llbountyhunter wrote...


She has a power that was similar to AI hacking, but for organics. Only thing is TIM. Isn't biotic (based off the books)

And if he did have this power why not just make them kill themselves? (if he WAS really there....) [/quote]

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

[/quote]

Id ont remember how you get it, but it involves doing mostly paragon and 1 renegade. Reason why I believe in the IT above everything else is that alluding to your point. At one instance shepard simply states:
"if you canc ontrol them why waste your time with us?"

TIM:
"....because I need you to believe"

That makes no sense from TIM point. If he can contorl them and if he is there he would have control them, and done his thing, not waste his time tryingt o convince you of something. Is just ridiculous and bad writting if he is in fact there.
[/quote]

I suppose you could make the counter argument that he needs to try and explain himself to Shepard as a way of dealing with indoctrination. But in the last few scenes he's been growing dismissive of shepard, so I'm not convinced by that argument.

[paxxton]

Rifneno wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

Yeah.  That same effect is also used in the dreams.  Hmm, I wonder there's anything telling in the pcc files.

... BioVFX_Plc_ReaperIndoc?  Nah, I'm sure it's not what it looks like. 

I have answered it many times. There is a clear explanation on Sanctuary in one of the PDAs why TIM is able to control Shepard and Anderson (nanides and adrenaline rush are technical means of indoctrination). Also, it is implied that TIM underwent some form of augmentation to be able to do that (the vid log on Cronos Station just before TIM's office).

[BatmanTurian]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

I dont remember how you get it, but it involves doing mostly paragon and 1 renegade. Reason why I believe in the IT above everything else is that alluding to your point. At one instance shepard simply states:
"if you canc ontrol them why waste your time with us?"

TIM:
"....because I need you to believe"

That makes no sense from TIM point. If he can contorl them and if he is there he would have control them, and done his thing, not waste his time tryingt o convince you of something. Is just ridiculous and bad writting if he is in fact there.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here to be fair to the Anti-IT's BUT TIM might want Shepherd to believe so that Shepherd will come around to his way of thinking. If Shepherd comes around to his way of thinking, Shepherd can convince the other races that what TIM believes is true. I can objectively see how this could be interpreted two ways, even though I lean toward one of them.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 18 avril 2012 - 06:59 .

[ExtendedCut]

Leto_Galt wrote...

ExtendedCut wrote...

I don't remember anything about Morinth being able to control people in ME2.  Can someone remind me? 

If that is true, then their may be a precedent for biotic control of people, and TIM's control over Shepard and Anderson wouldn't be quite so inexplicable without IT.

I responded to you last night on this topic.
See page 1533 to 1534

Thanks - just read your thoughts from last night - very informative and I guess it may explain TIM's "powers".  The only problem that I see is that there are at least, what, about 10 or 12 banshees that Shepard fights in ME3 and (other than when they grab you and kill you) they do not exhibit any organic control - so I'm not sure we can assume all Ardat-Yakshi have the Dominate power.  And I'm also not sure we can assume that TIM can gain biotic powers from the Reapers either.  Still, granted, your explanation is very, very plausible.  Thanks.

[Rifneno]

paxxton wrote...

I have answered it many times. There is a clear explanation on Sanctuary in one of the PDAs why TIM is able to control Shepard and Anderson (nanides and adrenaline rush are technical means of indoctrination). Also, it is implied that TIM underwent some form of augmentation to be able to do that (the vid log on Cronos Station just before TIM's office).

You didn't understand those video logs.

[SS2Dante]

paxxton wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Black shadows never showed up when you used that power in ME2. I strongly doubt he is using reave. Usually if a bioticis being used, there is a graphical effect on the body. stasis has the victim covered in white, reave had them covered in dark blue.

All we see from Shepard is him rubbing his temple as if he has a headache. The head ache indicates to me that TIM is using a mind control power rather then a biotic power, which controls matter.

Yeah.  That same effect is also used in the dreams.  Hmm, I wonder there's anything telling in the pcc files.

... BioVFX_Plc_ReaperIndoc?  Nah, I'm sure it's not what it looks like. 

I have answered it many times. There is a clear explanation on Sanctuary in one of the PDAs why TIM is able to control Shepard and Anderson (nanides and adrenaline rush are technical means of indoctrination). Also, it is implied that TIM underwent some form of augmentation to be able to do that (the vid log on Cronos Station just before TIM's office).

Isn't that physical indoctrination though? How does TIM administer it?

(physical as opposed to the wave based indoctrination the codex describes)