57139 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanTurian]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Problem with the theory that tim really wants to convince shep is that the whole game. The WHOLE GAME has tim saying I don't car what you think shepard. This is how it is. I'm right.you are wrong.

And then at the end tim is all "please believe me shepard. Pretty please with sugar on top! I know i'm right believe me!"

That is a 900 degree turn for tim's character. It is such a flip he spins around twice before heading in the opposite direction his character views were originally going

Devil's Advocate

TIM is losing and is desperate at this point in the story. He's grasping at emergency induction ports when he reaches out to Shepherd. Shepherd is his only hope, at that point, to turn the galaxy to his worldview.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 18 avril 2012 - 07:36 .

[SS2Dante]

BatmanTurian wrote...

FreedMason wrote...

 Hey guys. Just wanted to say just how great this theory is, and how it transforms a rubbish and insulting endind into a comprehensive one. I think Bioware intended to have indoctrination play out, but for whatever reason abandoned it at the last moment, leaving the clues behind. I think the only convincing argument against indoctrination is out of game; why would Bioware risk financial suicide for a plot twist? The ugly truth is that Bioware is going to have a bleak future, and possible turn into Pandemic Studios if they permanently lose loyal customers.

All in all, there is too much evidence to be desmissed as laziness, such as the oily shadows, the overall "wierd" presentation of the Citadel Run, the extremley creepy and seemingly supernatural Vancouver child, etcetera. The Mass Effect fans are smart cookies, some folk pieced together who Liara's father was before ME3 and Lair of the Shadow Broker. Because of that, it is likely that indoctrination will be my personal canon even if the Extended Cut is awful, and sticks with Space Voodo. 

Welcome to the supposed Looney Bin of the Mass Effect 3 forums;). 

We're not allowed sharp scissors.

[Drift Avalii]

Right, feel the need to provide some clarification here. On Sanctuary the video logs discuss attempts to turn people into husks, in order to experiment with the way a reaper signals to them. The video logs do not discuss indoctrination from what I saw, but a far more heavy-handed version of control.

In fact someone comments in the logs that the spikes used by the Geth were inspired as it allowed the nanides used for husk conversion and adrenaline to rush the victims system.

So nanides = husk conversion, NOT indoctrination.

EDIT: I don't have the PC version but if anyone can upload vids to support my assertion it would be great - its only fair to provide proof.

Modifié par Drift Avalii, 18 avril 2012 - 07:40 .

[SS2Dante]

paxxton wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


I don't know if nanites would be airborn

The so-called "oily shadows" in the Citadel scene are swarms of nanides. Oily shadows is just a poetic name for technical means of indoctrination. Ever saw dust under the microscope? There are billions of tiny discrete elements but still with an unarmed eye you see dust as a cloud.

The dream sequences are more poetic so the oily shadows are use there literally as figures of people.

No, to far of a stretch. You are assuming way to much, we like to deal with facts here. The oily shadows ARE NOT
"swarms of nanides".

So shadows (which need a light source and a lit object) made of an airborne substance (which anyway is made of tiny discrete particles) that happen to be figures of people or tendrils is not too far-stretched. The point is the "in-game facts" need to be put into perspective with what might produce the same effect in real life (ME is not fantasy, it has to be believable).

My explanation does not disprove IT.

I'm confused. Are saying that we're claiming the shadows and oily substance i the citadel is real? :S

[BatmanTurian]

BleedingUranium wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

One thing I can deduce from the fake leak is what the bioware employee stated.

"In fact, we aren't yet at a state in production where mr "art monkey" could even see what he is describing."

Doesn't that suggest that they're making the new content from scratch and it wasn't planned?

Either that or Mr. Gamble might be stretching the truth a bit.

Actually, I think they had to rush the ending (most likely because of EA) and were running out of time.

This has been debunked by Geoff Knightly. The ending was being created in the middle of the development process.

[EpyonX3]

Here are some pics to illustrate what I mean:


Shepard is the target here. He holds his head and aims the gun.




In this frame Anderson is the target. He grunts in pain.



TIM is the target here. He fights to break free of indoctrination as Shepard smooth talks him.




And here is Shepard while smooth talking TIM, not feeling pain like before. The wavy lines are for illustrative purposes IMO.




What do you guys think?

[paxxton]

SS2Dante wrote...

paxxton wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


I don't know if nanites would be airborn

The so-called "oily shadows" in the Citadel scene are swarms of nanides. Oily shadows is just a poetic name for technical means of indoctrination. Ever saw dust under the microscope? There are billions of tiny discrete elements but still with an unarmed eye you see dust as a cloud.

The dream sequences are more poetic so the oily shadows are use there literally as figures of people.

No, to far of a stretch. You are assuming way to much, we like to deal with facts here. The oily shadows ARE NOT
"swarms of nanides".

So shadows (which need a light source and a lit object) made of an airborne substance (which anyway is made of tiny discrete particles) that happen to be figures of people or tendrils is not too far-stretched. The point is the "in-game facts" need to be put into perspective with what might produce the same effect in real life (ME is not fantasy, it has to be believable).

My explanation does not disprove IT.

I'm confused. Are saying that we're claiming the shadows and oily substance i the citadel is real? :S

I'm not saying the whole situation on the Citadel took place (according to IT it did not). But I'm just trying to explain to you why what you saw looked the way it did.

[Ravel1992]

[quote]GamerrangerX wrote...

is not a hallucination,Bioware is aware of lack of clarity that why they gonna made a extended cut but they not ganna change the ending[/quote]

[/quote]

[Golferguy758]

Bounty hunter
point was to show that it was such a departure from his character that the likelihood of it really being tim is about the same as shepard surviving the explosion.

@batman
I'd counter that by saying he, tim, is on yhe verge of winning. He is at the controls. Shep and anderson are at his mercy. He has no need to try and convince shepard then. Tim, from the rtest of the game, would show shepard that he knows what he is doing with action, not words and pleas.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


I don't think so. The reason the queen saw it was because she sees the world through sound, and other mediums. No other species has mentioned oily shadows. Only headaches, and eaeling watched. Shepard turns what he hears into a reality in his dreams. Its how he thinks it should look. Imo

This^ is what I'm leaning towards.

But how do we explain the ones we saw in ME1 when Saren turned into a husk?

[llbountyhunter]

[quote]Ravel1992 wrote...

[quote]GamerrangerX wrote...

is not a hallucination,Bioware is aware of lack of clarity that why they gonna made a extended cut but they not ganna change the ending[/quote]

[/quote]

[/quote]

These guys are like 3 weeks late to party aren't they?

[BatmanTurian]

EpyonX3 wrote...

*snip*

What do you guys think?

I think it could be an artistic visualization representing Shepherd noticing things are wierd and otherworldly in that scene. Kind of like in the HP Lovecraft stories where characters see angles that shouldn't be possible and wierd hallucinations as they begin to lose their minds. It could be a representation of the Reapers taking hold of Shepherd's nueral network... I dunno.

[pro5]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Problem with the theory that tim really wants to convince shep is that the whole game. The WHOLE GAME has tim saying I don't car what you think shepard. This is how it is. I'm right.you are wrong.

And then at the end tim is all "please believe me shepard. Pretty please with sugar on top! I know i'm right believe me!"

That is a 900 degree turn for tim's character. It is such a flip he spins around twice before heading in the opposite direction his character views were originally going

To be fair, in one of the video recordings with Kai Leng that can be found during the final attack on Cerberus base, TIM does say something like "I'm not writing off Shepard as a complete loss yet...", so he may have actually been hoping to "convert" Shepard.

[EpyonX3]

[quote]llbountyhunter wrote...

[quote]Ravel1992 wrote...

[quote]GamerrangerX wrote...

is not a hallucination,Bioware is aware of lack of clarity that why they gonna made a extended cut but they not ganna change the ending[/quote]



[/quote]
[/quote]
These guys are like 3 weeks late to party aren't they?[/quote]

Lol i was thinking the same.

[llbountyhunter]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Bounty hunter
point was to show that it was such a departure from his character that the likelihood of it really being tim is about the same as shepard surviving the explosion.

@batman
I'd counter that by saying he, tim, is on yhe verge of winning. He is at the controls. Shep and anderson are at his mercy. He has no need to try and convince shepard then. Tim, from the rtest of the game, would show shepard that he knows what he is doing with action, not words and pleas.

Doesn't IT make sense of this by saying its Shepard's interpretation of him.

I mean they women in my dreams aren't nearly as willing as there real-life counterparts ...

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


I don't think so. The reason the queen saw it was because she sees the world through sound, and other mediums. No other species has mentioned oily shadows. Only headaches, and eaeling watched. Shepard turns what he hears into a reality in his dreams. Its how he thinks it should look. Imo

This^ is what I'm leaning towards.

But how do we explain the ones we saw in ME1 when Saren turned into a husk?

That the lines signify indoctrination?

EDIT: or reaper control rather.

Modifié par balance5050, 18 avril 2012 - 07:53 .

[llbountyhunter]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


I don't think so. The reason the queen saw it was because she sees the world through sound, and other mediums. No other species has mentioned oily shadows. Only headaches, and eaeling watched. Shepard turns what he hears into a reality in his dreams. Its how he thinks it should look. Imo

This^ is what I'm leaning towards.

But how do we explain the ones we saw in ME1 when Saren turned into a husk?

I can honestly say I don't remember that... can you post a pic or something.. I really don't remember that.

[BatmanTurian]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Bounty hunter
point was to show that it was such a departure from his character that the likelihood of it really being tim is about the same as shepard surviving the explosion.

@batman
I'd counter that by saying he, tim, is on yhe verge of winning. He is at the controls. Shep and anderson are at his mercy. He has no need to try and convince shepard then. Tim, from the rtest of the game, would show shepard that he knows what he is doing with action, not words and pleas.

Doesn't IT make sense of this by saying its Shepard's interpretation of him.

I mean they women in my dreams aren't nearly as willing as there real-life counterparts ...

Yes, I know. I'm playing Devil's Advocate to try to test or strengthen this part of the theory.

[pro5]

One other weird thing I haven't seen brought up often:

Shepard's limping magically disappears in Destroy and Synthesis endings, as if he's instantly healed from his wounds. A minute ago, he couldn't reach the control console by CRAWLING to it, but now suddenly he is shown RUNNING effortlessly towards the beam in Synthesis. And in Destroy, the cutscene even starts with him limping, but then Shepard straightens up and walks very decisively with no visible effort.

[SS2Dante]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


I don't think so. The reason the queen saw it was because she sees the world through sound, and other mediums. No other species has mentioned oily shadows. Only headaches, and eaeling watched. Shepard turns what he hears into a reality in his dreams. Its how he thinks it should look. Imo

This^ is what I'm leaning towards.

But how do we explain the ones we saw in ME1 when Saren turned into a husk?

In that case however the air is dusty and lightning is also forking around the room (wtf), and the dark sort of blur around the edges comes and goes every few seconds depending on the camera cut (in some shots of shep it's there, in others it's not). I think the dark blur is to accentuate the red glow of the saren husk.Admittedly this is more guessing though.

[BatmanTurian]

Golferguy758 wrote...

Bounty hunter
point was to show that it was such a departure from his character that the likelihood of it really being tim is about the same as shepard surviving the explosion.

@batman
I'd counter that by saying he, tim, is on yhe verge of winning. He is at the controls. Shep and anderson are at his mercy. He has no need to try and convince shepard then. Tim, from the rtest of the game, would show shepard that he knows what he is doing with action, not words and pleas.

Devil's Advocate

But he's not really on the verge of winning. Cerberus is in disarray and the entire Galaxy is alligned against him. So he wants Shepherd to be on his side. At the beginning of the game, he doesn't care what Shepherd thinks. Then he's losing and suddenly Shepherd matters.

(Yes I know it's a weak argument)

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 18 avril 2012 - 08:00 .

[Hawk227]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...


I don't think so. The reason the queen saw it was because she sees the world through sound, and other mediums. No other species has mentioned oily shadows. Only headaches, and eaeling watched. Shepard turns what he hears into a reality in his dreams. Its how he thinks it should look. Imo

This^ is what I'm leaning towards.

But how do we explain the ones we saw in ME1 when Saren turned into a husk?

I just finished ME1, and I don't remember wavy lines when Saren turned into a husk. Not saying it didn't happen. At the beginning of that convo at the council chamber, Saren tells you that Sovereign provided him with some upgrades. So when Saren dies, sovereign activates/controls those upgrades as Husk Saren.

[BatmanTurian]

pro5 wrote...

One other weird thing I haven't seen brought up often:

Shepard's limping magically disappears in Destroy and Synthesis endings, as if he's instantly healed from his wounds. A minute ago, he couldn't reach the control console by CRAWLING to it, but now suddenly he is shown RUNNING effortlessly towards the beam in Synthesis. And in Destroy, the cutscene even starts with him limping, but then Shepard straightens up and walks very decisively with no visible effort.

Yeah, this is one of the firmer arguments for IT. It shows Shepherd's resolve strengthening, whether he's making a good decision or a bad one. It's focus.

[llbountyhunter]

BatmanTurian wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Golferguy758 wrote...

Bounty hunter
point was to show that it was such a departure from his character that the likelihood of it really being tim is about the same as shepard surviving the explosion.

@batman
I'd counter that by saying he, tim, is on yhe verge of winning. He is at the controls. Shep and anderson are at his mercy. He has no need to try and convince shepard then. Tim, from the rtest of the game, would show shepard that he knows what he is doing with action, not words and pleas.

Doesn't IT make sense of this by saying its Shepard's interpretation of him.

I mean they women in my dreams aren't nearly as willing as there real-life counterparts ...

Yes, I know. I'm playing Devil's Advocate to try to test or strengthen this part of the theory.

I was countering golferguy here (sorry should've specified) because it seemed he was saying that Tim's sudden change in character disproves IT somehow.

[Golferguy758]

Bounty
Yes. It's why I believe it has to be in shep's head. Tim wouldn't, in reality, swap his views like that. He's shepard's foil. They both in reality believe their way is the right and best way. both are uncompromising in their beliefs in reality, but when we get to the citadel scene and choice area both lose that aspect of their character.

Batman, i'm just giving my perspective to hopefully strengthen the theoryt as well. I've been ranted at for being an it hater in this thread a couple of times when I've played devil's advocate as well.