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Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory


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#39576
Dwailing

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Rifneno wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Again, you are applying our standards as universal. Reapers do not see us as intelligent, or feeling, or life worth preserving. They see us as we see insects. You are assuming Reapers see humans the way we see ourselves.


Uhh, sentient or not isn't a perspective thing.  Either something is capable of thought and feeling or it's not.  And the Reapers clearly do know organics are sentient.


OK, before this gets out of hand, let's just put it this way, the Reapers know we are sentient AND they view us as insects.  Happy?  I should point out that the term to use here would probably be SAPIENT rather than sentient.  If you Google sentient vs sapient you'll see why.

#39577
estebanus

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

So I play some Skyrim and what do I see?

imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/goddammit.jpg/


now that's just great.



FFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...

Now I'll never be able to look at that beam the same way again!

#39578
Ytook

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estebanus wrote... 

You know, the language norm in the danish schools in northern Germany is actually 2: danish and German.
English is there too, of course, and also french or Latin if you choose it as a class.


I meant societally normal really, knowing that many languages in Denmark at that age is considered normal, while in the UK knowing that many languages at any age is considered highly impressive.

#39579
Rifneno

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

So I play some Skyrim and what do I see?

imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/goddammit.jpg/


now that's just great.


So that's what happened to the dwemer!  They went into a Reaper beam and got processed!

AFK, hunting for the dwemer reaper.

#39580
MaximizedAction

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

So I play some Skyrim and what do I see?

imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/goddammit.jpg/


now that's just great.


You people have obviously never seen Tron or Tron Legacy...B)

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 19 avril 2012 - 04:51 .


#39581
Lil Babbyt

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I can imagine you are overflowing with responses. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png 
I did not read your original post, because I have my own theory and
I did not want to be influenced by yours until I typed mine out. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png  I definitely want to read what you have to say and I will once I'm done typing.



(I
tried to think back on as many things I experienced with the game. My
facts may not all be perfect, but ultimately I'm just sharing my
interpretation.)




I believe the indoctrination theory is
correct and I also believe that it was partially a hallucination since
this is a side effect of being indoctrinated. I believe that Shepard was
going through a slow indoctrination process since ME1.
We did not
see it, because it was easy to forget the influence on Shepard since she
never really displayed the side effects in the other MEs. I think it
has a lot to do with the paragon and renegade choices throughout the
franchise. Here is how I see it:



PARAGON vs RENEGADE:

1. Paragon and Renegade
choices are given to Shepard throughout all games. To me, this is not
just a scale of measuring how good or bad you are in terms of
conversation progression, but I believe this actually symbolizes how far
Shepard is with the indoctrination phase. So, Paragon would mean that
you are strong-willed and your mind is your own. Renegade would mean that you have slipped further into the indoctrination process and the Reapers have a tighter hold on your mind.



2. Note that Shepard's appearance changes when Renegade outweighs Paragon.
When Shepard makes more Renegade choices, scars will appear...eye color
will change. Shepard no longer looks human, but in a way, starts
looking more synthetic. I think this symbolizes that not only has your
mind started to succumb to the Reapers, but so is your body. Another
little fact worth noting is that the Reapers use a red laser beam...a
Renegade's eyes are red too. Maybe just a coincidence.



3. Early
on in ME2, Dr Chakawas sent Shepard an email stating that her scars
would heal by having positive thoughts, which would ultimately mean
Shepard would have to have a sound mind that would lead her further from
the grip of the Reaper indoctrination.





RE-BUILDING SHEPARD IN ME2

1.
After Shepard died, the Illusive Man wanted to resurrect Shepard for
"mankind's gain" in ME2. Shepard did not only defeat Sovereign, but she
could comprehend Prothean beacons, communicated with a Reaper, and had
been near a Reaper artifact. It was in the Illusive Man's best interest
to use Shepard in order to gain the upperhand against the Reapers.



2. 
When Miranda was working on the Lazarus Project to re-build Shepard in
ME2, the Illusive Man was adamant on Shepard being virtually the same
person as before. The Illusive Man wanted no changes to be made that would effect Shepard's character or will.
If you recall in ME3, Miranda confessed that she wanted to implant a
control chip in Shepard during the project, but was not permitted to. If
Shepard was altered any differently, then she would not be a valuable
asset to the Illusive Man. He knew if anyone could gain Reaper
technology, it would be Shepard due to all her experiences. His agenda
was to ultimately get her to the Collector's Base so he could take
possession of it. This is why he invested so heavily on Shepard and gave
her all the resources she needed. Note that in ME3, Shepard finds
out that the Illusive Man made certain to surround her with "sympathetic
faces" and people who she could trust in order to complete the suicide
mission in ME2.




3. Shepard was still an organic being after she was re-built. The scientists had to use some implants, but she still was human.



4.In ME3, EDI points out to Shepard that she is an organic. Fast forward to the ME3 ending and Harbinger (A.K.A. the little boy) told Shepard that she was actually SYNTHETIC. This was a lie in order to make Shepard believe that by destroying the Reapers (choosing the red) that she would be killing herself too, but this was not actually the case because she's organic.


MY THOUGHTS ON THE STORY LEADING UP TO THE ENDING


I have
a crazy theory that Shepard has been the catalyst all along, but did
not know it. She fits the perfect candidate of being indoctrinated by
the Reapers, because she is a Spectre and high ranking military figure. I
believe it was mentioned that the Reapers sought political or high
ranking individuals to use as puppets in order to cause galaxy-wide
destruction (think of Saren in ME1). The Reapers needed her and since
they already indoctrinated her in ME1, she could be used as the catalyst
and even set the stage for their next cycle.



Shepard set the
Reapers' cycle back 3 years because she defeated Sovereign. They used
the Collectors to specifically target human colonies as a personal hit
toward Shepard. I think the Reapers were desperate, because the Keepers
did not respond to the Reaper signal on the Citadel to allow them
entrance into the relay, and with the defeat of Sovereign meant they had
to assess and re-adjust if their extinction cycle was to be successful.




Think back to ME2, when Harbinger would speak to Shepard during the fight scenes. Harbinger said "I will direct this to you personally". Harbinger
also told Shepard countless times that she would never succeed and that
her words were as empty as her future. In ME3, they pulled all the
stops. They found a weakness in Shepard, because she wanted to protect
the innocent and weak. I believe the little boy outside her window in
the beginning of ME3 was real, but I think because he was a symbol of
what she fought for, the Reapers used his image as their last ditch
effort to really get into Shepard's mind and control her.



Everyone
knew Cerberus and the Illusive Man was ruthless, but notice in ME3 how
the ex-Cerberus people were a little taken aback by the relentless
killing of humans...the same race the Illusive Man said he was fighting
for and protecting. By this point, I think the Illusive Man was also
indoctrinated and his mind was no longer his own. He focused on building
husks and it seemed like his "humanity" efforts were actually to the
Reaper's benefit due to his indoctrination. The Reapers used the
Illusive Man so that he could sabatoge and ultimately keep Shepard from
succeeding in their destruction. Take note that Cerberus was already
experimenting with controlling Rachni and husks in ME1, but perhaps the
Illusive Man was not as influenced by the Reapers at the time.



THE ENDING

Throughout
the entire ME franchise, (the fans) Commander Shepard has had free will
to make decisions and live with those consequences. Shepard's mind was
her own up until the very end of ME3. I believe she made it inside, but
I believe that she was (for the first time) experiencing indoctrination. I think Anderson and the Illusive Man represented  the Paragon and Renegade
parts of her mind respectively. She was confused and I believe what we
were seeing with Anderson and the Illusive Man was simply Shepard
fighting within her own mind. No one had ever gotten as far as Shepard
and she was a threat to the Reapers. This is when Harbinger "helps"
Shepard and tells her that she has 3 choices she can choose from. We
have to keep in mind that the Reapers can make the indoctrinated feel as
though they are making the best choice when in all actuality, the
Reapers are the ones making it for them.



The
end was a very confusing time for not only Shepard, but the player too.
I think this is what was intended by Bioware. I think they wanted us to
understand what Shepard was feeling. When people are indoctrinated,
they aren't really sure if they are or not (i.e. Shepard listening to
Anderson and the Illusive Man). We weren't supposed to be lucid because
no one is when they are indoctrinated...our/Shepard's decisions at this
point were no longer ours/Shepard's but belonged to the Reapers.
Shepard's choice was not her own choice and as fans, we got to

experience
that confusion and vulnerability first-hand. In a way, we all went
through the ups and downs of our Shepards and this was definitely one of
them. If that was what Bioware was gunning for, then it definitely
worked. Lol! You have to admit though, the ending calls for us to think
outside-the-box, which is something most games do not do.



I want to say that I agree with the child and the old Stargazer man at the end of ME3. I would love ONE MORE STORY! (Preferably a Mass Effect 4!) Please, Bioware!!!

#39582
estebanus

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Ytook wrote...

estebanus wrote... 

You know, the language norm in the danish schools in northern Germany is actually 2: danish and German.
English is there too, of course, and also french or Latin if you choose it as a class.


I meant societally normal really, knowing that many languages in Denmark at that age is considered normal, while in the UK knowing that many languages at any age is considered highly impressive.


Ah.

Sorry, I got confused.

Please don't hurt me! I'll never do it again, I swear!

#39583
Rosewind

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Back to before miles well quote me self cant be bothered re typing

Rosewind wrote...

I speak two language bad English and even baddier English.

Anyway back on topic about this star child/ugly devil child call him what you will, when he runs into the building before that event happens why dose it looks like he leaning against the glass railing watching what is happening I need to replay the scene but I swear he not just standing there it looked like he was leaning against the railing watching stuff. Give me 40 mins might be able to get a screen of what I mean I could be wrong it happens to fast.


I Just think it is extremely weird for a random roughly 6-8 year old kid to be just watching it not running to their mum or crying their eyes out and not to mention he there way before you are apparently he can teleport all over the place.

A screenshot to show you what I mean: Edit: Probably can see it better in full size, sorry it's been resized lol

Posted Image

Modifié par Rosewind, 19 avril 2012 - 05:01 .


#39584
DirtyPhoenix

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I wouldn't like Renegade choices as being portrayed as giving in to the indoctrination.

And the scarring stuff is just to represent your alignment. Alot of games do it, like in Fable you grow anglic wings or demon horms based on your alignment lol.

Modifié par pirate1802, 19 avril 2012 - 05:18 .


#39585
Earthborn_Shepard

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Rifneno wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

So I play some Skyrim and what do I see?

imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/goddammit.jpg/


now that's just great.


So that's what happened to the dwemer!  They went into a Reaper beam and got processed!

AFK, hunting for the dwemer reaper.


"You have three choices, Dohvakiin, you can either destroy all magic, take control over the dragons or fuse dragon and human DNA together."

"FUS RO DAH!"

#39586
llbountyhunter

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estebanus wrote...

Ytook wrote...

estebanus wrote... 

You know, the language norm in the danish schools in northern Germany is actually 2: danish and German.
English is there too, of course, and also french or Latin if you choose it as a class.


I meant societally normal really, knowing that many languages in Denmark at that age is considered normal, while in the UK knowing that many languages at any age is considered highly impressive.


Ah.

Sorry, I got confused.

Please don't hurt me! I'll never do it again, I swear!


Ah bioware. They managed to unite us all together...

And I only know English and Spanish .. here in the US anything above one is impressive...

#39587
Sammuthegreat

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Rosewind wrote...*snip*

A screenshot to show you what I mean: Edit: Probably can see it better in full size, sorry it's been resized lol

*snip*


What are we meant to be looking at here exactly?

Lil Babbyt wrote...

1. [color=rgb(0, 0, 255)">Paragon ]Renegade[/color]
choices are given to Shepard throughout all games. To me, this is not 
just a scale of measuring how good or bad you are in terms of 
conversation progression, but I believe this actually symbolizes how far
Shepard is with the indoctrination phase. So, Paragon would mean that 
you are [color=rgb(0, 0, 255)">strong-willed and your mind is your own. Renegade would mean that you have ]slipped further into the indoctrination process and the Reapers have a tighter hold on your mind.[/color]

 

I think you've made a fundamental error right at the beginning. Paragon vs Renegade has never, repeat never meant good vs evil. Renegade characters are not evil, they're still the hero. A Paragon will just look out for others more than a Renegade will; a Renegade is more pragmatic and will get the mission done no matter what it costs. It would be a real departure from the logic of the series to suddenly paint Renegade choices as reaper-influenced.

If anything, the Renegades in the series so far have been stronger-willed, since they're able to ignore the many, many moral implications of some of their more questionable actions. Meanwhile the Paragons get sidetracked by every other person who tugs at their heart-strings (NB. I play Paragon on my main Shep, so this isn't me having a go).

I think you make some good points in your post, but there's a lot of stuff that doesn't add up. I find it extremely unlikely that every Renegade choice indoctrinates Shepard a little bit more, just as I find it extremely unlikely that Shepard has been indoctrinated since ME1. If nothing else, how do you explain the sudden shift in ambience after Shepard is hit with Harbinger's beam, to a more dream-like state?

The Indoctrination Theory suggests that as Shepard is wounded by Harby's beam - probably knocked unconscious - his strength of mind slips enough for Harbinger to launch a full-scale indoctrination attempt while Shepard is weakened. The shift into the dream-like ambience would make no sense if Shepard had been indoctrinated all along; nor indeed would the whole ending sequence. Why would Harbinger/StarBrat try to indoctrinate Shepard if he's already indoctrinated?

EDIT: Just re-read your post, and you didn't actually say Shepard was indoctrinated since ME1 - you said he was undergoing a slow indoctrination process. Derp. Sorry, you can pretty much ignore half my post, I agree with that.

Modifié par Sammuthegreat, 19 avril 2012 - 05:23 .


#39588
Sammuthegreat

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llbountyhunter wrote...
Ah bioware. They managed to unite us all together...


See? Synthesis does work!

#39589
Ytook

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estebanus wrote...

Ah.

Sorry, I got confused.

Please don't hurt me! I'll never do it again, I swear!


I won't hurt you. Instead I'l offer you three choices.

You could destroy all language in the world. But! All Belgians will die as well for some reason.

You could take control of all language... somehow.

Or you could combine all language into one super language! (Which will be all green and lovely)

But know this, no matter what you choose you WILL die, and all planes will blow up for no reason.

CHOOSE!

kthnxbai xxx (and yyes I can do all this... )

#39590
Ravel1992

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Sammuthegreat wrote...

Rosewind wrote...*snip*

A screenshot to show you what I mean: Edit: Probably can see it better in full size, sorry it's been resized lol

*snip*


What are we meant to be looking at here exactly?


At the kid.

#39591
llbountyhunter

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Ytook wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ah.

Sorry, I got confused.

Please don't hurt me! I'll never do it again, I swear!


I won't hurt you. Instead I'l offer you three choices.

You could destroy all language in the world. But! All Belgians will die as well for some reason.

You could take control of all language... somehow.

Or you could combine all language into one super language! (Which will be all green and lovely)

But know this, no matter what you choose you WILL die, and all planes will blow up for no reason.

CHOOSE!

kthnxbai xxx (and yyes I can do all this... )


Don't forget that that vehicles will be destroyed as well causing millions to starve.

#39592
DirtyPhoenix

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Sammuthegreat wrote...

I think you've made a fundamental error right at the beginning. Paragon vs Renegade has never, repeat never meant good vs evil. Renegade characters are not evil, they're still the hero. A Paragon will just look out for others more than a Renegade will; a Renegade is more pragmatic and will get the mission done no matter what it costs. It would be a real departure from the logic of the series to suddenly paint Renegade choices as reaper-influenced.

If anything, the Renegades in the series so far have been stronger-willed, since they're able to ignore the many, many moral implications of some of their more questionable actions. Meanwhile the Paragons get sidetracked by every other person who tugs at their heart-strings (NB. I play Paragon on my main Shep, so this isn't me having a go).

I think you make some good points in your post, but there's a lot of stuff that doesn't add up. I find it extremely unlikely that every Renegade choice indoctrinates Shepard a little bit more, just as I find it extremely unlikely that Shepard has been indoctrinated since ME1. If nothing else, how do you explain the sudden shift in ambience after Shepard is hit with Harbinger's beam, to a more dream-like state?

The Indoctrination Theory suggests that as Shepard is wounded by Harby's beam - probably knocked unconscious - his strength of mind slips enough for Harbinger to launch a full-scale indoctrination attempt while Shepard is weakened. The shift into the dream-like ambience would make no sense if Shepard had been indoctrinated all along; nor indeed would the whole ending sequence. Why would Harbinger/StarBrat try to indoctrinate Shepard if he's already indoctrinated?

EDIT: Just re-read your post, and you didn't actually say Shepard was indoctrinated since ME1 - you said he was undergoing a slow indoctrination process. Derp. Sorry, you can pretty much ignore half my post, I agree with that.


True! I mean I don't know why people equate Paragon/Renegade as being good/evil? They didnt make a simple good versus evil scale for a reason.

#39593
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

So I play some Skyrim and what do I see?

imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/goddammit.jpg/


now that's just great.


So that's what happened to the dwemer!  They went into a Reaper beam and got processed!

AFK, hunting for the dwemer reaper.


"You have three choices, Dohvakiin, you can either destroy all magic, take control over the dragons or fuse dragon and human DNA together."

"FUS RO DAH!"


See that is a choice where Synthesis is tempting, very tempting ;)

#39594
Ytook

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llbountyhunter wrote...

Don't forget that that vehicles will be destroyed as well causing millions to starve.


Yeah that to... Oh and errr, DO NOT question me my logic is unassailable! (because it is... shut up)

#39595
llbountyhunter

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pirate1802 wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

I think you've made a fundamental error right at the beginning. Paragon vs Renegade has never, repeat never meant good vs evil. Renegade characters are not evil, they're still the hero. A Paragon will just look out for others more than a Renegade will; a Renegade is more pragmatic and will get the mission done no matter what it costs. It would be a real departure from the logic of the series to suddenly paint Renegade choices as reaper-influenced.

If anything, the Renegades in the series so far have been stronger-willed, since they're able to ignore the many, many moral implications of some of their more questionable actions. Meanwhile the Paragons get sidetracked by every other person who tugs at their heart-strings (NB. I play Paragon on my main Shep, so this isn't me having a go).

I think you make some good points in your post, but there's a lot of stuff that doesn't add up. I find it extremely unlikely that every Renegade choice indoctrinates Shepard a little bit more, just as I find it extremely unlikely that Shepard has been indoctrinated since ME1. If nothing else, how do you explain the sudden shift in ambience after Shepard is hit with Harbinger's beam, to a more dream-like state?

The Indoctrination Theory suggests that as Shepard is wounded by Harby's beam - probably knocked unconscious - his strength of mind slips enough for Harbinger to launch a full-scale indoctrination attempt while Shepard is weakened. The shift into the dream-like ambience would make no sense if Shepard had been indoctrinated all along; nor indeed would the whole ending sequence. Why would Harbinger/StarBrat try to indoctrinate Shepard if he's already indoctrinated?

EDIT: Just re-read your post, and you didn't actually say Shepard was indoctrinated since ME1 - you said he was undergoing a slow indoctrination process. Derp. Sorry, you can pretty much ignore half my post, I agree with that.


True! I mean I don't know why people equate Paragon/Renegade as being good/evil? They didnt make a simple good versus evil scale for a reason.


But regenade is saying the ends justify the means, your acting like TIM. Kill some to save many.

Doesn't Shepard say many times that this sort of "caculative" thinking makes us no better than the reapers?

#39596
Sammuthegreat

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Ravel1992 wrote...

Sammuthegreat wrote...

Rosewind wrote...*snip*

A screenshot to show you what I mean: Edit: Probably can see it better in full size, sorry it's been resized lol

*snip*


What are we meant to be looking at here exactly?


At the kid.


I realised that, I just couldn't pick it out before. It is very small in the picture.

#39597
Earthborn_Shepard

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Here, a little love for y'all:

http://img72.imagesh...1730/loveak.jpg

#39598
MaximizedAction

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Earthborn_Shepard wrote...

Here, a little love for y'all:

http://img72.imagesh...1730/loveak.jpg


:crying:

#39599
Golferguy758

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So other than apparently hitting my english to german translator anything I missed in yhe past 5 hours?

#39600
byne

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Ytook wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ah.

Sorry, I got confused.

Please don't hurt me! I'll never do it again, I swear!


I won't hurt you. Instead I'l offer you three choices.

You could destroy all language in the world. But! All Belgians will die as well for some reason.

You could take control of all language... somehow.

Or you could combine all language into one super language! (Which will be all green and lovely)

But know this, no matter what you choose you WILL die, and all planes will blow up for no reason.

CHOOSE!

kthnxbai xxx (and yyes I can do all this... )


I choose red! Theres literally no downside!